np: Latias - Don't Do the Dew! (NOTE: explanation of Skymin's fate within)

[cim]

It's kind of a "better safe than sorry" thing more than anything else. Like maybe Aeolus's ex-girlfriend is really into Pokémon and Aeolus hates her or something and unintentionally becomes more critical. (Again I have no reason to believe Aeolus is that kind of person and I firmly believe based on the DX-S thread and some other actions I've seen that Jump isn't, but whatever).

It's kind of like asking your local cops to have a warrant before searching your house, even though you know that they are cool dudes who wouldn't search it unless they needed to anyway.

 

[Jumpman16]

cool, dont worry about it

Everyone has bias, whether or not they even realize it. It's a simple fact that it's impossible be 100%, or probably even 90%, objective in anything other than a pure statistical analysis (or in this case, a straight vote) when human analysis is involved. A set of guidelines beforehand (beyond this wishy-washy "good argument-bad argument" stuff) does help, but don't pretend this is going to be objective and foolproof. It cannot be.

Not being disrespectful, just pointing out a fact.

given that we've never intimated that this is going to be objective or foolproof, and given aeolus's warning about posts in this thread not being about experiences with latias, do you actually have a point

 

[cim]

I believe that is his point. I don't think it's unfair for one to ask for some method of proving that this was as minimized as possible. I believe the yes / no reply will be adequate, while Syberia doesn't.

 

[Jumpman16]

i wouldn't bother speaking on his behalf, he started by saying people would be "guessing" without knowing why we would accept a vote, and is generally playing devil's advocate like he's done in PR which is a giant waste of effort without suggesting an alternate solution (which you have, not him). regardless of what we're going to do he has PR access and knows it, and is therefore derailing this thread for no apparent reason

 

[Darkerkrai]

Really late reply >.>.

Jolly Choice Band Weavile's Pursuit does ~75% to a min / min Latias, and that's without a switch. So tell me, how is that not a factor in beating Latias? It's almost the same as Weavile v. Starmie, only Starmie gets the shaft regardless of whether it switches or not.

Only mentioning that I was talking about any Pursuit user, whether it's Weavile or Houndoom. The point is that anything with a respectable base Attack and access to Pursuit will always force Latias out according to what a majority of people say. It's nearly the same mindgame Celebi uses with Tyranitar, whether it's going to stay in and Grass Knot or switch to its counter without Baton Pass. With Latias, she could be running Charm, Reflect, Thunder Wave or Hidden Power Fighting/Fire; and who's to say that every Latias isn't a min/min Calm Minder? Not all Latias are frail, EV wise.

 

[ShinyElite]

Once again, I doubt I really should have any say in this, but I'd like to quietly voice my opinion.

From what the responses I've seen are like, it seems as if Latias is the new Deoxys-E. It'll seem fair at first until someone finds that killer moveset and spread, and then it'll probably get sent back to Uber, IF it even leaves there at all.

Me? I'm still undecided, actually. I'd like to use Latias in OU and see what happens. Theorectically speaking, it should fit, seeing as Dragon/Psychic can be really poor typing, especially with *the list everyone has put down so far* running around.

But can Latias counter back on those Pokemon? Latias is a very versatile Pokemon that doesn't have to play a defensive game. It's faster than Salamence and can Specs Draco Meteor just the same. As someone mentioned right before me, it can run HP Fire or Fighting to toast Weavile and Scizor, (survival pending, since it's a dangerous game with Pursuit, especially on Specs). Add onto that Boltbeam, Grass Knot, Dragon Pulse, Psychic...

The more I list the more it seems like this Pokemon doesn't belong in OU which is a shame because I really love it.

If it does become OU, I could see the Offensive set going far, and it becoming like Lucario of old and new, you never know what it'll be carrying. Or, for defensive, again, you won't know what it'll be carrying. It's quite the mix and match Pokemon. Wouldn't be surprised to see if someone tried a DualScreen set, but I think having both screens cuts out some of the potential of this Pokemon.

That is why we are having a test.

I'm anticipating the cutoff date and vote of this Pokemon and eager to see where it lands, because even if it stays Uber I won't mind too much.



But, I'll let the greater minds decide. That's what I think about the situation, anyway.
(At least this was a mainly Latias-based post. Maybe I'm just naive..)

 

[Aeolus]

Stop theorymonning in this thread! The entire post above this is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING. Play with the suspect, and then talk about your experiences.

 

[haunter]

I don't really see why latias should be uber. From my experience, I haven't had many problems with opposing latias, nor I have swept teams with her. Even if she kills a pokemon, she can be easly revenge-killed by things like tyranitar, scizor, weavile. Despite having good defences, the psychic type hurts her a lot. I really hope she becomes OU. The only real problem I've encountered, is that really few players play the suspect ladder.
Have a nice day.

 

[nyczxjay]

Latias and Latios are going to be tested separately, this was brought up a while ago I believe. It makes sense since Latias and Latios serve different roles.

 

[pyrzi]

Not only that, but it isn't hard to notice that Latios is the superior one in player's
eyes. It would be hard to test Latias when Latios is present.

 

[Etceteraetcetera]

I'm sorry, I know this is apparently not the point of the thread, but I have no idea where else to put it; and I've been sort of out of any competitive Pokemon world for the past six months or so.

I was wondering, though, if this point was considered, since I saw it a long time ago, and I didn't know what happened to it when I first heard the lati@s were being tested, but the argument since I started playing competitively over a year ago that I had always stood by and had made most sense to me was the whole "you are essentially banning an item that, when put on any other pokemon, is most certainly NOT an uber item."

And this brings up the relevance in all this to the Garchomp ban. If I remember correctly, the final set that was most notoriously and almost universally used in its final OU days was the Yache SD set. Obviously this set was not as incredible without Yache berry, so I think it's fairly plain and easy to see the comparisons that essentially you could say that we should allow Garchomp in OU, but just not with a Yache Berry, and now we're saying that we should allow the Lati@s in OU, but just not with Soul Dew.

I was just hoping this argument wasn't forgotten, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me the status as a whole of this argument in the grand scheme of Lati arguments.
I also apologize if this was the wrong place to post this, and I apologize if this has already been brought up, and I'm simply repeating information that's been disregarded. If this is the case, then I would appreciate if a moderator would move this post to where it belongs or delete it if necessary.

 

[Jumpman16]

first of all, my original post indicates that we are not at all averse to testing with soul dew, so dont jump the gun just yet. in my opinion, i don't think latias is going to prove uber by january 19 (this shouldn't sway any of your votes btw, i'm allowed to state my opinion even if im judging), and i even wonder if it's "obviously uber" with soul dew. we'll cross that bridge when we get to it though

even given that, yache berry is just one of many reasons garchomp was banned, as has been stated many times in response to the "yache berry made it uber" argument. if garchomp didn't have even one of great: typing; stats; speed; movepool; ability, then it would be unquestionably less uber. there's a reason that no one is seriously calling for salamence to be suspect even with its reception of outrage in platinum to make it otherwise comparable to garchomp.

but besides all that, soul dew's effect on lati@s is unarguably much better than yache berry's on any pokemon. go read my second post again—while it was made in "fun" and because i can, you just cannot argue with the statistical benefit that soul dew grants these two pokemon, and that it's heads and tails better than whatever a pinch berry can do for one pokemon. just statistically alone, lati@s can easily use 4HP/252Def/252Spe and be worlds better than the LO set and take physical hits some 21-23% better from ALL 17 physical attacking types, not just one (while taking all special hits of course 33% better before even CMing). this is why we must consider Soul Dew as I requote myself below:

As far as the Soul Dew vs. Thick Club/Light Ball argument, let me just say this: we are aiming to give every pokemon the chance to enjoy the most use in competitive pokemon without breaking any particular metagame. Banning Soul Dew on Lati@s may allow it to be viable in standard play, which is the metagame every pokemon strives to enjoy use in because it is the most popular. UU is played less than Standard, obviously. Banning Thick Club on Marowak would make it decidedly UU instead of BL, and it would therefore enjoy less use. Banning Light Ball on Pikachu would decidedly make it less viable in UU, and it would therefore enjoy less use. I hope that clears things up about how we regard these special items—I don't think anyone has voiced it in this manner but it is safe to say that this is a fair way of considering competitive pokemon and why we tier things the way we do.

(and i'd like to see how well garchomp will rage through OU with the #1 pokemon in the game to stop it from sweeping "80% of the time" or greater:


Adamant, 394 Attack Scizor's Life Orb Bullet Punch on a 358HP/226Def [4EVs/min] Yachechomp: 40-48%)

 

[Caelum]

Somewhat replying to Jumps post on Soul Dew. While I can't pretend I've tested it formally in a competitive format, I've played several friends in unrated matches with Latias @ Soul Dew and it really does wonders for the mono - CM set (with my limited experience with it, I would consider testing it but it does appear to me to be a very questionable subject for testing).

As of right now, while I'm obviously impressed with Latias since it's a very good Pokemon, right now I am leaning towards voting it Standard simply because I think there are enough sufficient checks against it. Obviously the mono-CM + Magnezone combination is a very potent and effective combination but there are ways around this. People speak of this centralization around Dragon- and Steel-types but I've made very effective teams with just a lone Steel or a lone Dragon (or neither!) for the suspect ladder. This is my post urging people to set aside this preconceived notion that a successful ladder team is centralized around these types. Other strategies are still perfectly viable and I urge people to attempt them in the Latias metagame.

While the most common set I've seen personally is the Calm Mind set (although I have not statistical evidence to back this up seeing as I do not have Dougs stats) the most potent set in my experience has been just a basic Choice Specs set (Trick / Surf / Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse or Psychic). It's incredibly potent and (in my opinion) the single best user of Choice Specs in the game right now. The Choice set has several "checks", i.e. Pursuit Scizor / Metagross / Tyranitar, but has very few effective counters in the direct sense. Unlike Choice Specs Salamence the lack of weakness to Stealth Rock is a huge benefit for switches and with Latias good Special Defense and typing I find it easy to switch in. Also, Trick says "fuck you Blissey" and it useful for when you become tired of being locked in. I'm surprised to see the lack of use of Specs Latias since I've found it simply amazing.

Edit:

Side note: Choice Scarf Heracross is really, really potent on the Suspect Ladder lol.

Side note 2: I've also been experimenting with a Choice Scarf Latias and it's doing surprisingly well. It works as an effective revenge killer against the likes of DD Salamence,DD Kingdra, offensive DD Gyara (it takes 61% - 72% from a Timid max SpA Draco Meteor), DD Tyranitar (Surf does well against it) etc. etc. It is Pursuit bait but hey I've worked around this successfully.

Side note 3: Damn it, more people play the Suspect Ladder! I'm getting tired of playing the same people over and over again and I think all the suspect voters miss out when we have a limited pool of players.

 

[Syberia]

I finally decided to actually use Latias, and this set seems to be doing OK for me so far:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 204 HP/66 Def/240 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Charm / Reflect
- Roost

Still can't decide between Charm or Reflect; one can be used multiple times, while the other actually works on Metagross. Leaning towards Charm, as I run Magnezone to take care of Metagross right now.

 

[Heartgold]

Latias is OU IMO, it's no way differcult to handle. Not once it has swept more than one of my pokemon in a battle. It has serveral checks & counters. DD gyarados is seriously more threatening, it's swept me a few times today. I'm more worried about Lucario&gyarados appearing than Latias in my battles. XD

 

[cim]

In Yet Another Hypothetical Way Everything Could Be Ruined, what if 200 people that qualify for OU are the only ones on the Suspect ladder? Then instead of everyone fairly competent at battle getting a good rank, it would just be the top 50 or so... I'm trying to say that if a ladder is unpopular than "1655 / 65" on one ladder may be vastly harder to get on another.

I would repeat my "if something is truly uber battles will be harder to win / come down to speed ties" but that probably doesn't apply here as Latias isnt ;)

Along with Jump, I'm looking forward to Chomp in "stage 3 clusterfuck" if we ever get to it.

Just for shits and giggles, can we get a vote tally with no arguments struck too, even though it's effectively meaningless?

 

[reachzero]

In Yet Another Hypothetical Way Everything Could Be Ruined, what if 200 people that qualify for OU are the only ones on the Suspect ladder? Then instead of everyone fairly competent at battle getting a good rank, it would just be the top 50 or so... I'm trying to say that if a ladder is unpopular than "1655 / 65" on one ladder may be vastly harder to get on another.

I'm pretty sure you're raising the question of what happens if primarily the really good players are playing on the Suspect Ladder, making it much harder for normal, competent battlers to meet the requirements, correct? If so, then we actually have the slightly nastier problem of figuring out why the Suspect Ladder is losing steam. However, I really doubt that this will happen. I reached 1655/65 on the Suspect ladder the second day the ladder was open....It's still not a very hard requirement.

 

[cim]

Well, the ladder is more popular immediately after it opens than not... I'm just worried once I'm able to battle consistently I'll only be facing some really tough opponents that happen to procrastinate as those would be the only guys left...

I guess "I had schoolwork for most of the month then missed the requirements by a little bit" is what the Special App is for...

 

[lilyhollow]

I'm sorry, I know this is apparently not the point of the thread, but I have no idea where else to put it; and I've been sort of out of any competitive Pokemon world for the past six months or so.

I was wondering, though, if this point was considered, since I saw it a long time ago, and I didn't know what happened to it when I first heard the lati@s were being tested, but the argument since I started playing competitively over a year ago that I had always stood by and had made most sense to me was the whole "you are essentially banning an item that, when put on any other pokemon, is most certainly NOT an uber item."

And this brings up the relevance in all this to the Garchomp ban. If I remember correctly, the final set that was most notoriously and almost universally used in its final OU days was the Yache SD set. Obviously this set was not as incredible without Yache berry, so I think it's fairly plain and easy to see the comparisons that essentially you could say that we should allow Garchomp in OU, but just not with a Yache Berry, and now we're saying that we should allow the Lati@s in OU, but just not with Soul Dew.

I was just hoping this argument wasn't forgotten, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me the status as a whole of this argument in the grand scheme of Lati arguments.
I also apologize if this was the wrong place to post this, and I apologize if this has already been brought up, and I'm simply repeating information that's been disregarded. If this is the case, then I would appreciate if a moderator would move this post to where it belongs or delete it if necessary.

My position has always been that Yache Berry can't be "blamed" for Garchomp's brokenness, while if Lati@s were Uber with Soul Dew, but OU otherwise, we could call Soul Dew broken altogether, because every single pokemon that can actually use it becoming broken is a pretty good indication that there's something wrong with the item, and not with the Pokemon. Yes, if, say, Octillery and Moltres were given the Soul Dew boost as well (and were presumably usable in standard), things would be different, and the situations would be comparable; as it stands, though, having Soul Dew is either a (potentially) broken boost to Lati@s, or as useful as Amulet Coin.

Banning "X item on Y pokemon; X item is otherwise fine" is something I'm always going to be against, for somewhat obvious reasons, and I don't think that that line of thinking will have anything to do with any decisions we make regarding Lati@s or Soul Dew. I consider the Soul Dew ban a blanket ban, although in practice it doesn't make much of a difference so I'm quiet about it.

 

[umbarsc]

I would agree with that... if other Pokemon were incapable of holding Soul Dew altogether. However, they can, and it doesn't make them broken.

Not to mention that Soul Dew isn't Lati@s' sole reason for being uber either (that is, if we're assuming they're uber with and OU without). Take away Lati@s' Dragon typing, or their speed, or Calm Mind, and I bet they would likely be OU as well. I think comparing Soul Dew and Latias to Yache and Garchomp is a legitimate comparison, with the only difference being that people are likely to use Yache Berry on a Pokemon that isn't Garchomp. However, using Soul Dew on a different Pokemon is still an option, and you're still restricting that option for no apparent reason except to avoid adding "on Latias/Latios" on a Soul Dew ban.

 

[lilyhollow]

They can hold it but they can't activate it or do anything with it whatsoever that they can't do with a Pokeball, or Amulet Coin; I'm not restricting any options whatsoever, except for Tricking Soul Dew onto your own Lati@s. As insignificant as that situation is ("they probably deserve the boost in that case"), if Lati@s is broken with Soul Dew, a ruleset that allows Spinda to hold Soul Dew is contradictory.

Not to mention that Soul Dew isn't Lati@s' sole reason for being uber either (that is, if we're assuming they're uber with and OU without). Take away Lati@s' Dragon typing, or their speed, or Calm Mind, and I bet they would likely be OU as well.

If everything that could use Calm Mind was broken with Calm Mind, but many of them would bel OU without Calm Mind, then I'd be telling people to ban Calm Mind from the game outright; if there were two OU pokemon that could use Calm Mind but weren't affected by it in any way (as in, they literally weren't boosted by it), I'd still ban Calm Mind outright because at that point there's no way you can seriously consider that to be an "option." Then you'd come in and say "but why get rid of that admittedly useless option for no reason?" and I'd point to some scenario where my opponent might be able to use Mimic on my "useless Calm Mind," and then if I Mimic that with another pokemon, that's a broken situation that, while completely obscure and entirely meaningless in practice, still justifies getting rid of an option that is otherwise completely and utterly pointless to allow in the game.


If we were to ban Calm Mind from Latias, or Yache Berry from Garchomp, then we could say anything from "well let's ban Earthquake on Groudon" to "let's not allow Dialga to hold any items and see how it works in OU," and we'd be in a mess. Banning Soul Dew altogether isn't an issue, not just in practice (which, in this case, is the only thing I think we should care about), but even in theory it's justified by a completely obscure situation that nobody should actually care about, but still exists nonetheless.


Even if the theoretical "Tricking Soul Dew onto my own pokemon" strategy didn't exist, I honestly wouldn't even consider holding Soul Dew to be an "option" because it's completely identical to every other useless item that gives Fling 30 Base Power, and there's otherwise literally no reason to ever, ever use it. At that point, yes, I'm just saying "let's ban Soul Dew altogether for the sole purpose that we're avoiding potential ruleset-related issues that would otherwise become theoretically apparent if we were to say 'No Soul Dew on Lati@s.'" But when there's quite literally no reason not to go through with it, I find that keeping our ruleset as airtight as possible justifies getting rid of nothing rather well.


That said, the "Tricking Soul Dew onto my own pokemon" strategy does exist so I guess I don't need to go on and on about that.

 

[Jumpman16]

Well, the ladder is more popular immediately after it opens than not... I'm just worried once I'm able to battle consistently I'll only be facing some really tough opponents that happen to procrastinate as those would be the only guys left...

I guess "I had schoolwork for most of the month then missed the requirements by a little bit" is what the Special App is for...

I think that if this dynamic were actually to play out in reality, it would just lend more credence to Aeolus and my pleas to actually use the Suspect throughout the whole test, not just "cram" during one period. I honestly feel that those who can't/won't play on the Suspect Test Ladder but for two or three days are running the same exact risk of the student who only takes one day to write his or her paper, whether it's as soon as it's assigned or just before it's due. The paper doesn't have a set maximum page length, and the "lets get this outta the way asap" student runs the risk of not having written enough, while the last-minute hotshot has the obvious problems.

This all still falls under the "there's only so much Aeolus and I can do" umbrella. The interest really has to come from the community in the end, and that's something I cannot stress enough. We can't make you guys test, we can't make you guys test consistently, we can't make you guys test and let the experience itself dictate the conclusion you reach, we certainly can't make you guys adopt our philosophy, and we can't make you guys care about competitive pokemon as much as we do.

One of the few things we actually can make you guys do, as I've hinted at before, is play using whatever tier list we personally decide on, because it's not like many of you would actually leave our community or refuse to play on the most popular Shoddy server if we decided right now that Skymin is uber and Latias is OU and proceeded with whatever other decisions we wanted to, forcing you to deal with other Suspects and the constant resetting of your records along the way so we could gather the info we need to further mandate changes to competitive pokemon. We aren't too interested in running things that way, though. But please don't make us consider it.

 

[Veedrock]

Latias and Latios are going to be tested separately, this was brought up a while ago I believe. It makes sense since Latias and Latios serve different roles.

Late response, but necessary. Different roles before the test; but are they different roles during the test? (read the 'notice' after the next quote).

Well, the ladder is more popular immediately after it opens than not... I'm just worried once I'm able to battle consistently I'll only be facing some really tough opponents that happen to procrastinate as those would be the only guys left...

I guess "I had schoolwork for most of the month then missed the requirements by a little bit" is what the Special App is for...

Yeah, this is my biggest worry. Internet issues means I can barely ladder, and when I do get in a fight occasionally, it's against some really tough opponents. I'm starting to worry that I won't make requirements =/


----notice----

Putting everything else aside, I have noticed a potential issue. This may not need to be addressed before the next test, but it's better to recognize this sooner rather than later.

Before the announcement of seperate testing, people viewed Lati@s as two seperate pokemon; Latias was support, Latios was offense. People were clearly looking forward to Latios and were upset by the split. By nature going to try to remedy their loss by making Latias into a minature version of him. They are going away from her traditional role as support and making her into an offensive pokemon because they lost their offensive suspect. (NOTE: I do realise the reasoning behind the split and, to those that recognize, yes, I did advertise bulky offensive Latias before seperate testing was announced)

Now people bolster that "Latias isn't a threat." I ask you, what about Latios? Surely this isn't an issue yet and asking such a question is out of context, but hear me out; it will be and is. I feel that Latias' current "niche" is going to influence how Latios is viewed. Latias is primarily offensive as of right now and I don't see that changing for the remainder of the test period. This "niche" was supposed to belong to Latios. I for one see Latios as hitting the metagame quite violently (not judging on tier status without adequate testing though). I'm actually afraid that people will associate this ominous threat with Latias because of how she's being played and hence "deal with him" the same way they dealt with Latias. This essentially makes them the same suspect played twice. Now certainly this isn't the case, they are two different pokemon, but with how Latias is now and how Latios will be later, they will be associated with each other in ways they aren't meant to be and essentially become "the same suspect." Like it or not, this looks to be inevitable. I fear that if somebody feels Latias is OU, they will certainly feel Latios is OU (not ahead of time, mind you) just because they had experienced the same exact situation the month before. Latios won't be viewed for the threat/suspect that he really is so much as the "problem" that was faced a month ago. Votes will be, once again, be completely whack. When we vote for Latios, people will say that it's just like what they faced with Latias, when in retrospect it shouldn't've been.

In conclusion with combined testing, Latias was support, Latios was offense; with seperate testing, Latias = Latios. The same suspect twice. Might as well have just tested Latios to begin with and place Latias with him. It would save testing time and the result would be absolutely no different.


God, I'm horrible at wording things and getting my thoughts/worries down correctly. If something doesn't make sense or I'm forgetting about something, let me know. I don't think I'm exaggerating or overreacting; I could see this as a very possible reality.

EDIT: I know it's a bit late to change anything, but it's worth considering. Maybe something can be fixed up before the Latios test.

 

[lilyhollow]

I don't see how they could possibly be "the same Suspect twice" if Latios will almost assuredly perform most offensive sets better than Latias does right now, nor do I see some sort of pro-OU bias somehow showing up in a vote due to their similarities. If Latias just barely became OU at the end of the test after being used as an offensive threat almost exclusively, then why exactly should we be worried about being biased towards OU, when testing something that's pretty much just "a better version of the same pokemon"?


Either way, you may not have considered that successfully voting Latias into the OU tier means that it will also be present during our Latios test, and we'll effectively end up testing both of them at the same time. The circumstances will be significantly different.

 

[cim]

If we ban Latias (which if we do i'm going to fucking break down crying) will we even bother to test Latios? Surely "special bulk" isn't the brokine thing right now.