np: Latias - Don't Do the Dew! (NOTE: explanation of Skymin's fate within)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

First off, you're taking things way out of context, and the Jirachi Uber comment was just pointing out how stupid Chou's post was, so I see no need for you to make a big stink about it.

Second, what the hell? I've been seeing Blissey goddamn everywhere on Suspect Test, especially SToss/Toxic variants that can actually beat Latias. I haven't seen a Bliss with an actual special attack in ages.

Also, I haven't seen a single Kingdra on the ladder, wtf.

EDIT: Also, I actually saw a couple Dugtrio on the ladder, wtf? I guess the whole Steel is weak to Ground thing makes it a prime candidate for supporting Latias, but still wow. Haven't seen one in Standard in somewhere around forever. Actually, about the time Timid Scarftran became popular.

 

[Darkmalice]

I'm starting to think Latias in OU is really, really bad. Even if "it's best answers are already in OU," that doesn't help when its best answers are pretty crappy answers.

Sure Metagross, Tyranitar, Scizor and Spiritomb can all help deal with it in different ways, but the first 3 have to go quite out of their way to be particularly good at it and the last is just not a very great pokemon. >>

Is it just me, or does having a poke who can 100% wall mix-nape seem insane.

CB Tyranitar smashes Latias. Scizor beats Latias unless she has HP Fire. Same for CB Metagross, as very few Latias EV themselves to survive CB Meteor Mash. I'm not sure about Metagross, but Scizor, Blissey and especially Tyranitar's massive usage in the suspect ladder seems to be an indication that they are very effective at answering Latias. I personally have never had a problem with Latias, even without Tyranitar.

And there are other pokemon who can 100% wall mix-nape - Vaporeon, Cresselia and Tentacruel are the best. Are they uber?

EDIT: Also, I actually saw a couple Dugtrio on the ladder, wtf? I guess the whole Steel is weak to Ground thing makes it a prime candidate for supporting Latias, but still wow. Haven't seen one in Standard in somewhere around forever. Actually, about the time Timid Scarftran became popular.

I am one of those people using Dugtrio.

 

[Terminator]

I think that the rise of heatrans, metagros's and other steels and tyranitar isn't because they're being used to counter latias, it's because they work so excellently in the over used environment it's not even funny..

I think that the current way the suspect ladder ratings to be acghieved are the best way of voting, anyone can break bold voting by having amazing logic but just using his brilliant logic to make a decent arguement and have the suspect pokemon he's running against / with to become ou / uber, and the early suspect vote got like 140 people because 1650 was really easy getting as someone can hax people easily and get high on the ladder, but the new deviation makes it so that no one can hax and get able to vote...

This is why i believe that only the top 10 of the smogon leaderboard in any metagame matter, because someoen can easily hax players and get high on the ladder, but the top 10 are obviously going to be the skilled players since no one can hax so much that he reaches that high.

So i'm fine with the currnet voting process and i think this is the best way apposed to chris's and sds's ideas.

Also cm, grass knot, dragon pulse and recover with lo is just really amazing...

 

[Heartgold]

Latias hasn't troubled me too much, infact it hasn't been much of a threat so far for me with its current sets against my team. I only have two checks for Latias on my team: JollyScarfScizor has been effective, noone expects this kind of scizor, I've been this sometime ago when Latias wasn't getting tested, I've caught killing so many pokemon off guard and revenge killing others slower than it, but I don't switch this in straight away incase of HP fire/thunderwave.
Snorlax is what I normally switch to when Latias appears, so I can workout its set and work around countering Latias's set.

People have been talking about charm, yeah it is annoying and doesn't allow lax scizor to be just as effective, that's where my metagross comes in to laugh at her face.

Support sets are easy to deal with and not really doing enough damage back so I don't really mind taking it on anyday. My team works around Latias without taking too high risks.

 

[Legacy Raider]

If you play smart and don't let it set up, Latias is really a non-issue. It's essentially a Suicune with a lot less Defense and a Pursuit weakness, but in exchange it has a lot more speed and an instant recovery move. If you are a douche and let it CM all over you then of course it is going to be a problem, but then the same can be said about Suicune, Jirachi, Raikou, Snorlax, Machamp, etc.

(oh btw, the 'you' wasn't at anyone in particular, I just like speaking in the 2nd person =])

LR.

 

[cim]

Uh, Chou? The line being blurry between OU and Uber is not code speak for "you can ban if you don't like dealing with it".

The general idea is that if the metagame has changed too much and in a "negative way" that allows for less diversity, variety, and strategy due to the suspect's prowess, it's Uber. The subjective part is "how much is too much", not "do I like it".

Also, plenty of things 100% wall MixApe...

 

[RaikouLover]

CB Tyranitar smashes Latias. Scizor beats Latias unless she has HP Fire. Same for CB Metagross, as very few Latias EV themselves to survive CB Meteor Mash. I'm not sure about Metagross, but Scizor, Blissey and especially Tyranitar's massive usage in the suspect ladder seems to be an indication that they are very effective at answering Latias. I personally have never had a problem with Latias, even without Tyranitar.

Which is why I use my own Latias set. All 3 of them are 2HKOed by a Modest Life Orbed 350 Special Attack Surf with Stealth Rock. Metagross can survive, but thats where the bloated power of Draco Meteor finishes them off.... so much for your counters....

Again, I think the Calm Mind sets are pretty overrated. Your much better off smacking the switch in instead of being helplessly preyed on by those three. People spend too much time stat-upping in this metagame when most of the time it isn't necessary.

I can't wait until Latios testing commences, so you can Dragon Dance and fuck all three of them in their asses AND proceed to sweep a team.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think that the current way the suspect ladder ratings to be acghieved are the best way of voting, anyone can break bold voting by having amazing logic but just using his brilliant logic to make a decent arguement and have the suspect pokemon he's running against / with to become ou / uber, and the early suspect vote got like 140 people because 1650 was really easy getting as someone can hax people easily and get high on the ladder, but the new deviation makes it so that no one can hax and get able to vote...

This is why i believe that only the top 10 of the smogon leaderboard in any metagame matter, because someoen can easily hax players and get high on the ladder, but the top 10 are obviously going to be the skilled players since no one can hax so much that he reaches that high.

For the record, I have gotten jack shit hax, and I've already reached the lower requirement for both ladders. These requirements are so piss-easy that I'm glad to see Bold Voting instituted.

 

[cim]

Hey, by the way will there be accountability in this? I mean, will we be able to see exactly what votes you accepted and rejected here and why? Just for the record?

I think that would be "only fair" to critique, criticize, and fix the system if broken (and applaud if it works!). Transparency never killed anyone.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Uh, Chou? The line being blurry between OU and Uber is not code speak for "you can ban if you don't like dealing with it".

The general idea is that if the metagame has changed too much and in a "negative way" that allows for less diversity, variety, and strategy due to the suspect's prowess, it's Uber. The subjective part is "how much is too much", not "do I like it".

Want to try running by me how you avoid it turning into "I don't like it." Or how that becomes any different from "This is too much." ?

I'll be amused to see you try.

Also, plenty of things 100% wall MixApe...

um, ok.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Let's try something like this.

"Latias is not a beneficial force in the OU metagame. It slants the metagame too much towards Dragon-type offense while simultaneously inhibiting the effectiveness of standard offensive teams and weighing the metagame heavily towards a defensive or stall-based metagame rather than the current one."

Now I don't believe a lick of this, but if this were someone's argument, I would accept it, because it's in terms of the metagame, rather than the personal. Though at this point, the success of my 3 Dragons 3 Steels team is making me think that the problem IS too much dragon-type offense, though I highly doubt it's Latias' fault.

 

[lilyhollow]

The point is that (you gave the impression that) you'd vote Latias Uber because it just so happens to do a couple of things that irritate you. You even stopped supporting your "this is very bad for OU" line a long time ago-- you're pretty much just saying "I want Latias banned based solely on personal preference," which is, believe it or not, entirely different from actually giving a legitimate argument that "this game is worse than it was before, here's how much I think we have to lose by allowing Latias, and this is why I think a line was crossed and that Latias should be Uber."

Yes, all of our arguments are going to end up subjective, and technically "Garchomp gets 2 kills per match and absolutely, 100% needs to be on every team" doesn't mean any more than "Latias happens to wall Infernape." But when the person behind Statement A is able to add "and this is exactly why I believe this is a bad thing for our metagame" and the person behind Statement B just leaves it up to everyone's imagination, obviously we're going to take issue with Statement B and call it "worthless subjective opinion."



Obviously we're still early on in the test right now, and there's no reason for everyone to worry about only posting their opinions when they're perfectly supported by flawless, precise reasoning as to why they believe Latias will end up too strong for OU. But if anyone honestly thinks that their "and this is just purely my opinion, I just don't like stall very much!" votes will/should be accepted when the time comes, yes, people are going to have a problem with that.


All in all, I suppose I agree with what SDS just said. To be honest if I were in control of the Suspect voting process I might be a bit harsher than he'd be, but that seems mostly besides the point right now.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Stall isn't a bad thing. I've been using stally teams and I've been doing well in Standard for ages. I'm glad that there's something that firmly walls Infernape because it'll make people stop relying on it so much.

If you worry about too much Dragon type offense carry some fast thing that uses a hard hitting Ice move. Jirachi is still working great.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

Stall isn't a bad thing. I've been using stally teams and I've been doing well in Standard for ages. I'm glad that there's something that firmly walls Infernape because it'll make people stop relying on it so much.

If you worry about too much Dragon type offense carry some fast thing that uses a hard hitting Ice move. Jirachi is still working great.

Cress counters infernape very well. Tyranitar counters cress. Tyranitar counters latias (to some extent). Infernape has nothing to do with it IMO

 

[Darkerkrai]

I don't get what point you're trying to make.

My point is that banning something because it's annoying to you really doesn't make a viable reason (then again, YOU are the one who's voting). Seriously, you're acting like one of the people who voted Skymin Uber because, "it haxed my +6 CM Jirachi" or, something of that sort. I'm not understanding why you could consider it annoying when Latias hasn't even been on the Suspect ladder for two weeks; how your team hasn't really had time to adapt to it.

Now, onto your post regarding my "A" v "B" Pokemon. So then, Suicune's going to be running Surf/Rest/Calm Mind/HP Electric/Ice Beam/Sleep Talk at the same time to kill off its threats at once? Poliwrath and Toxicroak aren't really shit, seeing as how Suicune's going to be running the Crocune set against Blissey or, a Rest/Surf/Ice Beam/Calm Mind set against Toxicroak; the OU metagame really doesn't stop anyone from using those two Pokemon anyway, just as people use Nidoqueen and Arcanine to stop Scizor.

Onto Latias, you're really missing the point on Celebi, Salamence, Lucario, Registeel Scizor and Dragonite. Dragonite and Salamence tend to just keep Latias from switching in while Celebi can just setup its own Calm Minds and Baton Pass to something else or, stay in with its own moves to hurt it with (HP Ice, usually). Lucario can just SD alongside it as it Reflects or in fact, not be OHKO'd by HP Fighting and KO back with Crunch. Scizor also carries X-Scissor and U-Turn :s. Registeel walls it entirely while doing 30% with its Ice Punches, offensive variants are just crippled by Thunder Wave >.>. Haraiyama and Machamp do the same thing with their Ice Punches seeing as how Latias bearly runs Psychic. Bronzong takes 1/3 of its HP with Gryo Ball and usually finishes it off with Explosion.

Giving a 'counter' to some Special sweepers doesn't seem hard to do in the least, especially when there's a 'check' for it lurking around every corner.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Cresselia requires Psychic to beat Infernape usually. Nasty Plot Ape, anyone?

Ttar does not counter Cress if it is the Psycho Shift Flame Orb variant either (which I am particularly fond of).

Latias resists Ape's Fire and Fighting moves while not taking too much from HP Ice, so... That's something that's pretty new in the metagame.

 

[TeaBag]

Cresselia requires Psychic to beat Infernape usually.
Latias resists Ape's Fire and Fighting moves while not taking too much from HP Ice, so... That's something that's pretty new in the metagame.

Infernape has access to Punishment and Shadow Claw to hurt Latias on suspect ladder (usage of which I predict to increase). Punishment is especially useful as if a faster Latias comes in on MixApe and proceeds to Calm Mind, expecting a switch, you'll effectively deal 200 damage to its lower defense stat.

In fact, standard 250 (24 EVs) attack MixApe has a 67% chance to OHKO 252 / 0 Latias with Punishment after two Calm Minds while 260 (64 EVs) attack MixApe boasts an 87% OHKO chance with the same circumstances, factoring in Stealth Rock, Leftovers, and Life Orb. Any version of MixApe is guaranteed a 2HKO on a 252 / 0 Latias with one Calm Mind, but you won't be able to strike twice considering most Latias run 252+ speed.

just a thought

 

[Darkerkrai]

Cresselia requires Psychic to beat Infernape usually. Nasty Plot Ape, anyone?

Ttar does not counter Cress if it is the Psycho Shift Flame Orb variant either (which I am particularly fond of).

Latias resists Ape's Fire and Fighting moves while not taking too much from HP Ice, so... That's something that's pretty new in the metagame.

I'm seconding this quote except for the bolded.

Flame Orb-Psycho Shift Cresselia isn't used much anyway and seeing as how Moonlight heals 25% damage as Cresselia loses 18% damage per turn, even CBTyranitar can beat it. Trick-Burn Orb sounds much better since Cresselia can probabally steal a worthwhile item to either Trick again or, use to its own advantage rather than suffer in the Sandstorm against Tyranitar.

@Teabag- Infernape's been using U-turn much more often since Weavile and (lol)Slaking have a better chance with Punishment/Shadow Claw. Punishment is useless if Latias itn't Calm Minding or is running max Speed while Shadow Claw is only 10 BP higher than it.

 

[Duck Tape Son]

He actually has Trick and Psycho Shift on the same set for his Cress.

 

[TeaBag]

@Teabag- Infernape's been using U-turn much more often since Weavile and (lol)Slaking have a better chance with Punishment/Shadow Claw. Punishment is useless if Latias itn't Calm Minding or is running max Speed while Shadow Claw is only 10 BP higher than it.

lol I forgot about U-turn.

Weavile and Slaking using Punishment better is a moot point since no sensible player will keep Latias in on either of them, and you should be Pursuiting anyways.

 

[Darkerkrai]

lol I forgot about U-turn.

Weavile and Slaking using Punishment better is a moot point since no sensible player will keep Latias in on either of them, and you should be Pursuiting anyways.

The whole Pursuit vs Punishment/Night Slash thing is where the mind games come into play. From my experience using Latias, every Weavile, Tyranitar and Scizor have been using their other moves more othen than Pursuit unless they know that Latias is completely defenseless and will HAVE to switch out. I don't know why everyone factors in Pursuit when referring to ways to beat Latias, it's really like saying that every Salamence will Outrage that Hippowdon instead of Aqua Tail :/

 

[cim]

Stall isn't a bad thing. I've been using stally teams and I've been doing well in Standard for ages. I'm glad that there's something that firmly walls Infernape because it'll make people stop relying on it so much.

Wow... just wow. You've managed to not only completely miss the point of Blame Game's entire post, but you've also derailed the thread into arguments about trivialities as well as propagating the myth that a Mixed Infernape is impossible for stall teams to deal with without Latias. I'm not sure how you managed that, but you did.

Little "myths" like that ruin the Suspect test. Just like "Shaymin has no paper counters" before it or any of the other bogus claims that have nothing to do with tiering. That's why I'm critical here.

Anyway, CB U-Turn Infernape makes Latias cry out in pain, I love it. Everyone should use it.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

The only Kingdra and Dugtrio I've seen in the ladder until now were my own. Having a way to instantly kill Tyranitar and Blissey is just... comforting. And Double Dance Kingdra often fucks up half the opponent's team.

Which is why I use my own Latias set. All 3 of them are 2HKOed by a Modest Life Orbed 350 Special Attack Surf with Stealth Rock. Metagross can survive, but thats where the bloated power of Draco Meteor finishes them off.... so much for your counters....

Hmm, I guess I'm going to use it now. Just have to find a slot for Stealth Rock...

Anyway, CB U-Turn Infernape makes Latias cry out in pain, I love it. Everyone should use it.

Worse than that is when people use Scarf Nape. Dugtrio dies to any shit the monkey throws at him and only my Kingdra is faster than it, and only when it's raining. God, I hate it.

 

[BlakBlastoise]

Cresselia requires Psychic to beat Infernape usually. Nasty Plot Ape, anyone?

Ttar does not counter Cress if it is the Psycho Shift Flame Orb variant either (which I am particularly fond of).

Latias resists Ape's Fire and Fighting moves while not taking too much from HP Ice, so... That's something that's pretty new in the metagame.

Most cresselia have a stab move. A timid, +2 flamethrower does Damage: 161 - 190
Damage: 36.26% - 42.79%
2HKO, but in that time cress can paralize or KO the ape. And isn't grumpig one of the best infernape counters with thick fat and all?


If Latias is Timid, or more offensivley oriented, then CB Ape U-turn does Damage: 78.48% - 92.38% Which is putting a big dent in it.
I have not seen any defensive latias, all of them I have seen have been Offensive, ussually LO or the CM set.

 

[TeaBag]

I don't know why everyone factors in Pursuit when referring to ways to beat Latias, it's really like saying that every Salamence will Outrage that Hippowdon instead of Aqua Tail :/

Because Outrage and Aqua Tail is akin to Night Slash and Pursuit, obviously.

Jolly Choice Band Weavile's Pursuit does ~75% to a min / min Latias, and that's without a switch. So tell me, how is that not a factor in beating Latias? It's almost the same as Weavile v. Starmie, only Starmie gets the shaft regardless of whether it switches or not.