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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

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Articanus said:
i swear if that is even a remotely serious response I'm going to shoot me, you, and my ex, in that order.
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Yoshi and Bowser do do better against Metaknight than most due to grab release jazz and stuff. (Especially Yoshi who leads into a spike) However, Snake and Falco still do better than either of them.

For the next tier list I'm predicting a Falco rise and a Game and Watch/DK drop.
 
HotGarbage said:
They have a decent matchup with mk when compared to the rest of the cast..... I wouldn't go as far to call them "counters" though.
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Well, when they have close to 50-50 matchups when the rest of the cast is at 40-60 or worse, that's as close to a "counter" as you can get.
 
Wait, what? Bowser is huge and slow, which means he's just a huge target for the Mach Tornado. His poor recovery means he's easily gimped, and for being one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, characters in the game, he doesn't really have much range lol.

I can kind of understand Yoshi because he has a solid projectile and a recovery that's hard to gimp, but Bowser?
 
Phiddlesticks said:
Wait, what? Bowser is huge and slow, which means he's just a huge target for the Mach Tornado. His poor recovery means he's easily gimped, and for being one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, characters in the game, he doesn't really have much range lol.

I can kind of understand Yoshi because he has a solid projectile and a recovery that's hard to gimp, but Bowser?
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"I think that a lot of people think the Bowser vs Meta 55-45 matchup is such a joke since Bowser is such a crappy character to most players. With Meta being the undisputed best character in the game, many would assume that he would utterly rape Bowser in every way.

Think about it like this though. Both Bowser and Meta Knight are characters of extremes. In actual statistics, neither of them are balanced characters. There really is no middle ground for either of them in terms of speed, power, etc. In most cases, they're either really bad at something, or really good at something.

Bowser is really big, slow and not very maneuverable. However, he's strong and has a large range on a lot of his attacks. He also weighs 50,000 pounds.

Meta is really small, fast, and maneuverable to the max. He has long range and he attacks insanely quick. He also weighs 5 pounds.


The thing about Bowser is that his matchups really don't match up with his extreme attributes. He isn't a character that has some excellent matchups and some terrible matchups. He's a character that is pretty much made of bad matchups. (Besides the obvious things like Ganondorf and Falcon.) The funny thing about that though, is that even though a lot of his matchups are disadvantageous, most of them aren't horribly disadvantageous. They're usually only 55-65 in his opponent's favor. For the most part, Bowser matchups can be summarized into two separate groups.

Matchups where Bowser can hold his own with some difficulty.

Or matchups where Bowser is fighting Dedede.

Excluding any match with Dedede, which is clearly a mockery of a fight to begin with, Bowser really doesn't suffer horribly in most of his matchups. He does do badly in some mind you (Diddy and DK), but he doesn't perform that badly on a majority of the cast.


In the Meta matchup, Bowser has a lot of fun tools to use. The chaingrab has already been mentioned, and while it's difficult to land the grab, once he does, most Meta Knights are in for a world of pain. Bowser can chaingrab Meta to the ledge, and once he reaches the ledge, he can use his powerful Dtilt to KO him, or an Fair if Meta jumps out of his grab. If properly utilized, a perfect Bowser chaingrab can lead into KOs. And if it doesn't, it can lead into very high amounts of damage. It can also lead into an inescapable Bowsercide, which is possible if Bowser is properly positioned at the ledge when Meta is released from his grab. Of course, his chaingrab and grab release tricks do not decide the matchup, but they are effective tools when used properly.

Another thing Meta Knight needs to watch out for, Bowser's tilts and jabs. Meta's tilts will usually outrange Bowser's, but you still need to be wary of them. Bowser's jabs and tilts come out surprisingly fast, and they have decent amounts of range to them as well, not to mention KO power. Jabs and Ftilts are good for spacing, and they both come out pretty quick. The Dtilt, as mentioned before, works out of a grab release and kills very easily. The Utilt is absolutely fearsome though. The Utilt comes out fast, has very deceptive range, and is very fast. I think it'll kill Meta at 80% fresh. And funnily enough, if properly spaced, a reverse Utilt will beat Meta's Dair. Although I'm not 100% sure on this, I'm pretty sure it will beat out an Fair, Bair, and Nair as well. Simply put, the Utilt is dangerous.

Despite his large strength, Bowser is a very defensive character. He's a character that waits for his opponent to make a mistake, then punishes them. Attacks that aren't properly spaced will be met with his infamous Fortress OoS, which does decent damage and even has killing power. Because of Bowser's huge shield, he can take a lot of hits and not get shield stabbed. He can defend himself for freakishly long time while he waits for an opening. Hell, his shield can even absorb an entire whorenado. Always remember that the sooner you start getting predictable and making mistakes, the sooner Bowser will start punishing you.

An obvious thing worth mentioning is Bowser's weight. Yes, Meta is pretty strong. His Dsmash and Shuttle Loop come out near instantly, and they have good killing power to boot. However, you'd be surprised at all the crap that Bowser can survive. Just as Bowser's weight is important in the matchup, so is Meta Knight's. As I'm sure you're aware, Meta is light. Really light. A lot of Bowser's moves will kill Meta and surprisingly low percents. The Utilt and Fortress have been mentioned, but lets not forget his Fair and Bair. Both come out quick and have surprising amounts of priority and range. Both of these attacks can beat out Meta's aerial attacks if they're spaced well, so they're useful if the Bowser player sees an opening, or he just wants to clash hits.

I'm in no way insinuating that Bowser has an advantage on Meta Knight. However, it's clear that while Bowser does not go even with Meta, the matchup isn't all that bad for him. Hell, I'd take Meta over Samus any day. Fighting Samus is a nightmare for Bowser. :P"
-MK matchup discussion
 
Um, GT the Bowserside isn't inescapable, that's why in the rules it was put that it they win by Bowserside the sudden death doesn't count Bowser gets the win. The target has some control over it I'm pretty sure.
 
If you end up properly positioned when you use the claw, there is not enough room/time for the opponent to get back onto the stage
 
Yoshi yes, bowser not really.

Technically, Mk has no solid counters, which is a main reason why one could could argue his banning in competitive play, where it already is in a few states. Yoshi's chaingrab does screw over Mk, but bowser is just too heavy and big for Mk to not toss around. As an Olimar, I personally have no trouble against Metaknights, and yes I've played some of the good ones. Olimar's ground game completely wrecks Mk from doing too much on the ground, while punishing his aerial approaches are fairly easy to do. A full shield can outlast a full tornado and you can punish the small amount of ending lag. Not only that, Mk dies incredibly easy due to his weight, which is one of his few downfalls. As for Olimar's recovery, once you've played enough Mks, you know whats coming, and its virtually hard for them to gimp you once you know what your doing. Olimar's recovery isn't as bad as the many unbiased people will tell you. Chances are, if you get gimped, a normal smash attack would have killed you within about 10% anyway.

Point is, he has no solid counters, but some characters fair much better than others including.
 
Wow, Bowser sounds like a really good character. I think I might start playing as him now.

Also, you say that Olimar is "virtually hard" to gimp once you've played enough Meta Knights, but isn't that mainly from your opponents being predictable with their gimp attempts? Olimar has a bad recovery that is easily gimpable Meta Knight is one of the best characters at gimping (second only to Mario imo). The fact that the Meta Knights you play are being predictable doesn't change anything about the matchup.
 
viperGTS said:
I have a question:
What is priority?
What do people mean by projectiles? Like toon links bombs and bommerang?
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Okay, for priority: Say there are two Kirbys that fsmash each other. Both attacks are cancelled, because they have the same priority.
Now, let's have Kirby use Inhale while Jigglypuff unleashes a rollout on him. Kirby takes no damage at all, while he just sucks up Jigglypuff due to Inhale outprioritizing Rollout.

And yes, by projectiles, they mean attacks like Dedede's Waddle Dees, Toon Link's Bombs, Falco's Lasers, the shockwaves from Kirby's Final Cutter, etc.
 
Moves don't have a "priority" as such. Hitbox clashing occurs when the two hitboxes deal within 10 damage of each other. Other priority interactions are a result of one move outranging another, invincibility or super armour frames, the grab/attack trading mechanic, and so on.
 
So I used Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch with the correct timing, they would hitbox clash?

Ten percent seems like a pretty large margin.
 
I'm going to probably repeat what has already been said, but...
On the Mk counter subject, bowser can get some really good combos on metaknight, but he is still a giant target just ready to be gimped and he lacks decent vertical recovery.
Yoshi is a much more solid choice, being that he has a good projectile (if used right) and his recovery is very hard to gimp because of his frames in his second jump.
I have been lurking on the dedede subject on smashboards, but i have yet to post once because i feel i will be bombarded by the fanboy idiots.
Do you guys think dedede's infinite chaingrab should be banned? My stance is that it shouldn't be banned. It doesn't overcentralize the metagame, which is eventually why anything is ever banned.
 
I believe that anything that leads to an unwinnable match up should be banned or at lease severely limited. (Including Pika chaingrab on fox) The number of characters doesn't mean anything, or the tier placement of said character either.
 
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