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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

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Mr.E said:
What? Of course Mario will try to gimp, his Cape alone is a pretty good gimping tool. He can't stray too far from the ledge, much like Marth, but that doesn't mean he isn't good at edgeguarding.

Olimar is a joke to gimp and only precise Whistle Armoring through an opponent's gimp attempts will actually save you. As far as waiting until the last possible moment to tether, opponents with good recovery usually don't even chance it and just eat the hit to ensure you die... How the hell did he get placed so high on the new tier list anyway?
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Meh, guess I need to play more Marios then. As for his tier placement, I personally wish he was lower since its always nice to win with a mid tier rather than a high tier, but oh well. Blackwaltz and a few of the SoCal players that I'm too lazy to think of are doing really well. It kind of surprised me, but when I thought about it after seeing people post on smashboards, I guess its not too surprising. Recovery, once the opponent is at ~30, a red, purple and sometimes blue will stage spike them and they will die before you do. Not so much on Yoshis Island, more so on the other 3 neutrals, so its somewhat of a big choice deciding to stay on or not. I've won games by having people make the wrong choice. :p

Olimar ftw, just won my first playoff match on GB so I'm pretty happy. ^.^
But Olimar dittos are sooo gay.
 
Glide attacks also clash, and I do believe Specials do whether or not they're grounded. (It may depend on the Special; I know for a fact the Spacies' Side-B Specials can sometimes clash and pass through attacks during off-stage recovery.)
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This must be different based on the game. I remember two Falcon Punches clashing on the ground but not in the air (hits were traded) in Melee.
 
The way I see the issue of Olimar is that even if he is "easy" to gimp, I doubt one could say it's the same to get him off the stage. He's got a pretty good game overall.






But he's still a (BAN ME PLEASE).
 
olimar is right where he should be imo.

mother boys are both likely off a bit but the problem with those guys is that they get very, very little tourney representation.

mk definitely deserves his own tier when the sbr unanimously gives him #1 over snake. he's clearly a better character by a sizable margin than snake, so they don't really belong in the same tier. tourney results back the claim up.

snake could stand to be in A class

but whatever, the tiers were just based off the largest gaps in votes, which ended up working out pretty well...

still a tad too early for a tier list. wait until the game's been out a whole year before you even make one...we can all see how the 1.0 tier list turned out because of it. still, the current list is fairly accurate.

finally, pt is only two spots from Go Fuck Yourself, Sakurai Tier. oh well. maybe next time.
 
Umby said:
The way I see the issue of Olimar is that even if he is "easy" to gimp, I doubt one could say it's the same to get him off the stage. He's got a pretty good game overall.






But he's still a (BAN ME PLEASE).
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Of course hes a (BAN ME PLEASE), hes Olimar.

But thats my point. Just because hes easy to gimp doesn't mean your going to end up in that position easily anyway. Thats the thing people seem to misunderstand, and figure going Mk on an Olimar is just giving them a free win.
 
Rudementry said:
Fox has a lot of ups and downs, high ups and low downs. Lets not even mention pikachu. Fox destroys snake, the supposed 2nd on the tier list, but is eaten alive by MK's and ZSS's just to name a random few. Honestly Fox can take on most of the top tiers. I love fighting snakes, ROB's, D3s and G&Ws. All of those match ups are atleast 50:50 or better for fox from my personal experience. Marth is close to 50:50 but may be more in his favor, but good foxes can easily take on marths.
I don't know how I ended up posting this here, lol I hardly managed to mention falco at all, but honestly, fox does not deserve 24th place. Its ridiculous.
Where I live theres only one real bad matchup I have to worry about, MK's. Other then that, fox can handle a lot, in fact most of fox's match ups are obscure and less used characters. Sure he can't do everything, but he can do a lot more than Bowser.
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I found this post pretty entertaining, because of how he said "Fox destroys Snake and Marth and GAW are 50:50 or better for him as well"
 
I saw that post and most of those matchups are a dubious claim. For one, I know personally that ROB owns Fox and I don't see what he does to Snake or Marth either. There's plenty wrong with the new tier list but I don't think Fox's placement is one of them.
 
Mr.E said:
I saw that post and most of those matchups are a dubious claim. For one, I know personally that ROB owns Fox and I don't see what he does to Snake or Marth either. There's plenty wrong with the new tier list but I don't think Fox's placement is one of them.
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Well, here are the matchup ratios listed by the Fox boards themselves:
Fox v Marth: 35:65
Fox v G&W: 30:70

Their attempt to justify that Fox screws up Snake:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201445

You'll find it in quotes in this topic.
 
if you really want to look at tiers as a list of how tourney viable characters are...

fox should be bottom tier or close to it

because he is not tourney viable

because he has some of the worst matchups in the entire game, meaning he is very easy to counterpick.

hell if you want to keep ddd infinites in the game, mario/luigi/samus/bowser/dk should be down there as well

wario might have some release grab infinite shit but at least he's hard to grab.
 
Golden Togekiss said:
Well, here are the matchup ratios listed by the Fox boards themselves:
Fox v Marth: 35:65
Fox v G&W: 30:70

Their attempt to justify that Fox screws up Snake:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201445

You'll find it in quotes in this topic.
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Hm, good to see that the matchup topic has reasonable numbers for Marth and G&W (and not those delusional ones listed by Rudementry).

...In that topic though it looks like they aren't claiming that fox screws up snake, but rather that the matchup is even or slightly in snake's favor. Not sure if that is true though, as I know nothing about fox and the fox boards have been very.... optimistic in regards to their matchups in the past.
 
in regards to the new tier list, i quite like it... i'd only make a few adjustments, such as moving snake to the A tier with the likes of falco and that. i also feel that Yoshi should be higher... but overall, it looks reasonably accurate in my mind
 
Mia said:
The latter half of the cast is nonviable. Why would you nitpick at Fox? At least Fox has the benefit of doing decently vs Snake by having a reliable kill method on him where other characters cannot.
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I nitpick at Fox because the current discussion was about Fox. lol
 
HotGarbage said:
Hm, good to see that the matchup topic has reasonable numbers for Marth and G&W (and not those delusional ones listed by Rudementry).

...In that topic though it looks like they aren't claiming that fox screws up snake, but rather that the matchup is even or slightly in snake's favor. Not sure if that is true though, as I know nothing about fox and the fox boards have been very.... optimistic in regards to their matchups in the past.
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Ignorant optimism at best.
 
I personally think several characters are underrated, most notably Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff is a lot better than people give her credit for. Her smash attacks are really good, as is her aerial combat. She also has five jumps, and they are bigger than Kirby's, Meta Knight's, and Dedede's. Rollout works well as an unexpected power move as well as a very good horizontal recovery. Pound also works as horizontal recovery as well as a good surprise move. Rest is a great move if used correctly, as it can easily kill an opponent at 50% damage. Her final smash is awesome if used on a small stage. I'd say one of the best.
 
Sorry, her smash attacks are not really good, they are actually terrible.

Her Wall of Pain is much less effective than in melee and rest has been nerfed. The lack of hitstun really hurts Jigglypuff. She gets killed very early, has the worst ground game, and even her air game is not too spectacular compared to other characters.

Nonetheless, Rest out of Tornado is amazing and Jigglypuff does have a great recovery, but stuff like this doesn't' save a character.

And Final Smashes (along with all items) are not used in competitive play (which we are talking about), so that is not an argument.
 
How is Rollout an unexpected power move when you clearly see it charging up?

edit: Surgo beat me.
 
Yeah you won't be hitting someone with Rollout unless they try to shieldgrab and fail, or just land after using some move with abysmal lag. How does Snake properly camp against, uh, any projectile user that can reach across the stage? I don't find his grenades to be very useful when they can be reflected/blown up.
 
The fox boards need to rethink the snake matchup, seriously.
they thought that he countered metaknight a few weeks ago, and now snake, next is falco/dedede. sooner or later fox can make every character approach with his lasers and he is top tier above metaknight because he counters everyone in the game.
I know that's a bit of an exaggeration, but they were comparing their stats with other characters to their stats with snake. snake beats fox. I know, because i mained fox for a while and snake was never a good matchup for me.
Also, Minwu, fox's lasers are quick and they are in perfect range of where snake holds his grenades.. No other character has a projectile that can completely shut down grenade camping. Rob comes close because he can laser everytime he hears that pin, but other than that not character can do it efficiently.
 
Yeah Jigglypuff is ass. At least she has good recovery, especially horizontal-wise. Vertical I could argue, but the 5 jumps will suffice most of the time. But yeah, she has the worst ground game compared to many characters, and Sing + Rest is a risky strategy as is.
 
Rising Pound is good enough to argue that her vertical recovery is good as well.
 
Uh, can't the other two spacies deal with camping Snakes even better? Lucas' PKT can also change the 'nades trajectory and slow down the missile while passing through them.
 
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