np: UU - A New Beginning

[Garganator]

Or you know use Rotom who doesn't need gimmicky EVs and stops it spamming Return.

Gimmicky set, which found a place in Smogon Analyses. Indeed, gimmicky as hell... And this guy doesn't have bad support options also with access to Light Screen, T-Wave, etc. for a tank.

I think it's really good idea, I didn't thought about it. Pokemon, which has physical defense on level close to Max HP/Max Def Gyarados is nothing to laugh at. Only one weakness to use against it and right now usefull resistance with all those Staraptors running around. I'm gonna try it in my stall team, it may be interesting.

What proportion of Raptor are CB and Adamant? Considering that it can switch into all of its attacks bar one attack on a set that isn't the most popular, needs SR support for the 2HKO, and also isn't the initial attack of any Staraptor, I'd say its a good counter. Particularly as Rotom can actually wall other stuff like Fighters.

It's hard to call something a counter when it's 2OHKOed by a move, which is on almost every Staraptor set on the most popular set (ok, many run Jolly Nature, so it has a chance to survive). But I need to agree that this guy makes a solid Staraptor check. Heck, even Metang makes a good check, but it's not counter. Someone found something like this in that Luxray or Bulky Arcanine, which someone posted here. I would say Bulky Granbull or Bulky Tauros, but those Close Combat weaknesses are troublesome.

 

[Legacy Raider]

For everyone who has qualms with Wynaut being removed, I strongly suggest you read the PR thread on Wynaut: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50036

Wynaut came from Uber to UU, not from NFE, so it is a special case. It is also currently banned on both the standard and UU ladders, because we have yet to prove it is OU-material, let alone UU.

 

[iKitsune]

I have a simple question.

Does a tier have to work on the principle that defensive teams ie stall can run as well as offensive teams. Im really not sure as an answer to this. And i wonder if tiers should be able to accomodate all types of play style.
What i can see is that there are to many threats for stall teams to defend against and therefore the tier does not work at a fair level. ie. you need a chansey and a registeel to succesfully counter most special threats.

 

[iKitsune]

i have more to say but must go.

 

[mien]

You joined very recently, so I'm going to assume you missed the vote on Wobbuffet. If you didn't, then you're obviously ignoring it for no reason. The community voted on Wobbuffet, and the overwhelming response was that Shadow Tag + Encore (+ Tickle/Destiny Bond) + Outspeeding Walls was broken as hell. There's nothing "theory" about calling a set used by a nearly identical banned Pokemon broken.

Also, just so you know, I'm not talking out my ass. This thing is hideously broken. I used it to ensure a Linoone sweep by taking out my opponent's Steel-type, and then sweeping with an unstoppable Belly Drum Linoone. It's not even remotely fair.

Sorry for my late reply, my dad started crying about my french homework blablabla

I remember these votings very well and also remember playing in a metagame with both Garchomp and Wobbuffet allowed. I even battled the so-called broken teams of Tay and Ipl numerous times before it was banned. So i know what your talking about

I never had a problem facing Wobbuffet while using a stallteam but let's say you and the majority is right and Wobbuffet is 'broken'. However Wynaut while having the same movepool and ability has bit too serious handicap in stats.

Wynaut can easily be 2HKO'd by a wall so in order to switch in and encore you cannot efford any mistakes. One misprediction and your 'broken' strategy is completely useless. Combine this with the fact that only a few walls can be outspeeded by Wynaut, Wallrein for example already has too much speed. The only pokemon that comes to my mind on which this strategy can be used without risk is Registeel, most walls are either too fast or 2HKO Wynaut

Unstoppable Belly drum Linoone, seems what exagurated to me i've faced someone using that set and my walls could still take a hit from it. Of course it will hit hard but you also sacificed a team slot in order to do so

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Gimmicky set, which found a place in Smogon Analyses. Indeed, gimmicky as hell... And this guy doesn't have bad support options also with access to Light Screen, T-Wave, etc. for a tank.

Indeed, Rotom can work decently as a Staraptor counter with a bulky set. If I were to use it for that role I'd probably use the Thunderbolt / Will-o-wisp / Rest / Sleep Talk set with max HP and Defense. That way you have a very good chance of avoiding a 2HKO from CB Brave Bird and can then Rest back to full health, leaving a Staraptor crippled from recoil and forced to switch out or risk a Sleep Talk TBolt / WoW. Works decently against some Fighters too.

It's hard to call something a counter when it's 2OHKOed by a move, which is on almost every Staraptor set on the most popular set (ok, many run Jolly Nature, so it has a chance to survive). But I need to agree that this guy makes a solid Staraptor check. Heck, even Metang makes a good check, but it's not counter. Someone found something like this in that Luxray or Bulky Arcanine, which someone posted here. I would say Bulky Granbull or Bulky Tauros, but those Close Combat weaknesses are troublesome.

That was me who posted the Bulky Arcanine set, but it was really Light who 'created' it. As far as countering Staraptor is concerned, I guess Luxray is superior with its Brave Bird resist and guaranteed OHKO, but I like Arcanine's Extremespeed for the fact that it doesn't always need to take a second blow when switching in. That and luring bulky Waters into a Toxic, which I guess can apply to Luxray for Ground types but its typing and movepool doesn't necessarily deter some common status immunes like Steelix and Nidoqueen for example. Lack of Stealth Rock weak can help too, but its not been as big of a problem as you'd expect; Roar Blastoise has proven to be a very capable spinner.

 

[Peachfuzz]

I have a simple question.

Does a tier have to work on the principle that defensive teams ie stall can run as well as offensive teams. Im really not sure as an answer to this. And i wonder if tiers should be able to accomodate all types of play style.
What i can see is that there are to many threats for stall teams to defend against and therefore the tier does not work at a fair level. ie. you need a chansey and a registeel to succesfully counter most special threats.

Basically no. If a tier is dominated by the offense, so much that stall is not playable at all and pointless to use, then so be it.

 

[Steinhauser]

Wynaut can easily be 2HKO'd by a wall so in order to switch in and encore you cannot efford any mistakes. One misprediction and your 'broken' strategy is completely useless.

It's really not that hard to predict a Registeel's Stealth Rock, a Clefable's or Blissey's Softboiled or a Curse/Bulk Up/CM/support move from something like, say, Hariyama or Spiritomb. What Registeel attacks right off the bat? What Clefable, at 25% health, will attack instead of healing itself? It has to - that's the only way it can wall.

Combine this with the fact that only a few walls can be outspeeded by Wynaut, Wallrein for example already has too much speed. The only pokemon that comes to my mind on which this strategy can be used without risk is Registeel, most walls are either too fast or 2HKO Wynaut

Any wall that 2HKOs you and is slower will get DBonded. There goes your wall. In fact, if you switch Wynaut in on a faster wall's support move, you can DBond as they attack with a 2HKO. Thus they are faced with a dilemma - attack and die, or be Encored into a support move and set up on.

Unstoppable Belly drum Linoone, seems what exagurated to me i've faced someone using that set and my walls could still take a hit from it. Of course it will hit hard but you also sacificed a team slot in order to do so

The fact that it not only sets up for free but doesn't have to deal with its main counters (Steelix and Registeel) makes Wynaut too good. The risk-reward ratio is way out of wack.

 

[Stagnant]

Wonderful, a Pokemon is already banned. This is ridiculous. I assume he was banned on the principle that he was sooo good that he has put people on top of the leader boards correct? Hell, if wynut was that effective then might as well remove Raikou, Roserade... yatayata untill the top 50 UU pokemon being used atm because they are a more effective than any team with wynut I've played.

95-45-45 Defenses compared to wobbuffets 190-58-58 so it can take 2 hits. If its faster... so what that means it has less defense and has to play it off with destiny bond or switch out. If it encore stalls ... well you may have just lost a wall but he can easily be revenged killed. Encore + Tickle? Switch out when u can eat the pursuit and setup on the pursuit user. So many ways to deal with him it isnt funny.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Wonderful, a Pokemon is already banned. This is ridiculous. I assume he was banned on the principle that he was sooo good that he has put people on top of the leader boards correct? Hell, if wynut was that effective then might as well remove Raikou, Roserade... yatayata untill the top 50 UU pokemon being used atm because they are a more effective than any team with wynut I've played.

95-45-45 Defenses compared to wobbuffets 190-58-58 so it can take 2 hits. If its faster... so what that means it has less defense and has to play it off with destiny bond or switch out. If it encore stalls ... well you may have just lost a wall but he can easily be revenged killed. Encore + Tickle? Switch out when u can eat the pursuit and setup on the pursuit user. So many ways to deal with him it isnt funny.

For everyone who has qualms with Wynaut being removed, I strongly suggest you read the PR thread on Wynaut: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50036

Wynaut came from Uber to UU, not from NFE, so it is a special case. It is also currently banned on both the standard and UU ladders, because we have yet to prove it is OU-material, let alone UU.

Wynaut was not banned because it "was sooo good that he has put people on top of the leader boards". It was banned because it encouraged a mindless style of play which we don't want in any balanced tier. I really think you should go and read that PR thread on Wynaut, then review your argument.

 

[Bologo]

Wonderful, a Pokemon is already banned. This is ridiculous. I assume he was banned on the principle that he was sooo good that he has put people on top of the leader boards correct? Hell, if wynut was that effective then might as well remove Raikou, Roserade... yatayata untill the top 50 UU pokemon being used atm because they are a more effective than any team with wynut I've played.

95-45-45 Defenses compared to wobbuffets 190-58-58 so it can take 2 hits. If its faster... so what that means it has less defense and has to play it off with destiny bond or switch out. If it encore stalls ... well you may have just lost a wall but he can easily be revenged killed. Encore + Tickle? Switch out when u can eat the pursuit and setup on the pursuit user. So many ways to deal with him it isnt funny.

You really don't sound like you know what you're talking about. Have you even read the PR thread? Wynaut is a potentially uber pokemon, and testing in UU of all things is considered a very bad idea. That's why it was banned.

About your second paragraph, do you even know what the point of making Wynaut faster is? Honestly, the point is to make it set up on walls, which as you should know are normally slow. The only way Wynaut is being revenge-killed is if the opponent has Pursuit. Not every team packs Pursuit now, does it?

Switch out and eat the Pursuit when you're at -6 Attack/-6 Defense? It's not as if it's extremely easy to set up on the Pursuit user after either. You also seem to underestimate how bad it is to lose a wall. Losing your defensive core means that you're left vunerable to almost any strong sweeper out there.

Honestly, can we not turn this into a Wynaut discussion? It's banned for now and that's that.

 

[Slobroking]

Wonderful, a Pokemon is already banned. This is ridiculous. I assume he was banned on the principle that he was sooo good that he has put people on top of the leader boards correct? Hell, if wynut was that effective then might as well remove Raikou, Roserade... yatayata untill the top 50 UU pokemon being used atm because they are a more effective than any team with wynut I've played.

95-45-45 Defenses compared to wobbuffets 190-58-58 so it can take 2 hits. If its faster... so what that means it has less defense and has to play it off with destiny bond or switch out. If it encore stalls ... well you may have just lost a wall but he can easily be revenged killed. Encore + Tickle? Switch out when u can eat the pursuit and setup on the pursuit user. So many ways to deal with him it isnt funny.

Wynaut isnt even allowed in OU so of course its banned in UU.

 

[reachzero]

Wonderful, a Pokemon is already banned. This is ridiculous. I assume he was banned on the principle that he was sooo good that he has put people on top of the leader boards correct? Hell, if wynut was that effective then might as well remove Raikou, Roserade... yatayata untill the top 50 UU pokemon being used atm because they are a more effective than any team with wynut I've played.

One thing I should add to the rebuttals already given by LR and Bologo is that there isn't really any "slippery slope" argument to be made here. Wobbuffet and Wynaut were two-of-a-kind, and only two-of-a-kind. There are no other Pokemon that can do what they could do.
I should point out, though, LR, that Wobbuffet does meet our definition of Uber under the Support Clause; by destroying the defensive core of a team with little or no risk, it clearly deserved the Uber tag, in my opinion. Admittedly, Wynaut isn't quite as good at it as Wobb was, but IMO we did the right thing by taking it out of the picture for the time being.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Reachzero, I completely agree with Wobbuffet being uber. I apologize if I made it sound like I thought it had OU characteristics or anything like that. It is a stupid pokemon and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near competitive play =/.

Anyway, this thread is being horribly derailed here =/ (partly my fault), so I'm going to try and bring it back on course by discussing the merits of a Haze Milotic. Now, in OU, Haze was seen to be one of Milotic's 'Other Options', with Hypnosis, Toxic and even Light Screen taking precedence in that last moveslot. In nUU, however, the abundance of stat up sweepers makes Haze an excellent addition to Milotic's movesets, and really let it counter the likes of CM Spiritomb, CM Mismagius, CM Entei, Agility Blaziken, Curse Registeel, Curse Bibarel, Curse Steelix, to name a few. Having such a bulky pokemon take out all of your opponent's stat boosts, even through Substitute and Suction Cups, is an invaluable asset to any team. With Hypnosis' drop in accuracy, and with Toxic able to be used by so many other pokemon, I really think Haze could become a primary option in Milotic's movesets in UU.

 

[Stagnant]

Of course I read the thread. As of now, I really dislike that Wynut has been removed not because he has lead team's to the #1 spot but what he could potentially do. I mean most OU teams have a check for Gyarados right? Why not have a check for Wynutt by just using Pursuit? Also, I understand that losing a wall could be potentially devastating. But Tricking a Choice Item onto Steelix or Exploding on Claydoll essentially comes down to same equation... you have 1 less effective pokemon to deal with.

Also, I don't understand why a mindless style of play is looked down apon. I mean an Explosion team is pretty striaght forward. Take out what you can untill you explode. Stall teams can be as easy as making effective switches to force a pokemon out. Mixed sweepers such as Infernape simply go for best typed attack. The game doesn't have to be that complex. Perhaps, I just see "Mindless Style" of play differently than the community. Seems that way anyways. Uhm.. Wynutt just doesn't have the bulk that wobbuffet has and also lets not forget Toxic Spikes is a very common move.

Despite that rant I'm fine with later testing of Wynutt.

Also, I would like to say that Bulky Sub Roost Staraptor is quite hard to take down.

Edit:

I really think Haze could become a primary option in Milotic's movesets in UU.

I can certainly vouch for that statement.

 

[ImmunityBow]

I've been playing a bit, and these seem to be the most common to me: Milotic (REALLY annoying to take down if you don't have a hard-hitting electric like Raikou), Regirock, Raikou, Ambipom, Crobat.

I do see a nice amount of variety though, seeing everything from Nidoqueen, to Blaziken, and lots of cool stuff all over the place.

The new UU has rekindled D/P for me.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Number 1 underestimated threat: Torterra.

Torterra @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Wood Hammer
- Rock Polish

This thing absolutely rips up the metagame right now. Able to 2HKO or OHKO all the popular walls in the metagame without much fear, and hitting 422 Speed after a Rock Polish, this is probably the most destructive force in the metagame currently. It's also pretty much a 100% free switchin to Steelix and Registeel, and it's pretty much impossible for the average offensive team to shut it down, given that you need a Choice Scarfer with 80 Base Speed or more, and even base 90 Pokemon need a +Speed Nature (I know that Scarf Roserade fails to outspeed with Modest). It's also notable that 95/105/85 defenses are top-notch, and Registeel's Ice Punch fails to do more than 55%. Its typing is also pretty neat, resisting QuakeEdge from many physical attackers.

Seriously, you should try this thing out. Most teams have such hideous Torterra weaknesses that it's not even funny.

 

[Lou Cypher]

The problem I've seen Torterra facing so far is picking its time to switch in. Pick your time wrong and Torterra ends up frozen too fast, because despite no dragons being prevalent in this format, Ice attacks are definitely around a lot.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Ive never had issues with RP Torterra, as i have a Scarf Houndooom. But i can see it being a pretty powerful threat

 

[diinbong]

The point of that Torterra is that you have to pick the right time to use; aka when Houndoom is down. Before you send it spiraling into sweep-mode, you should fire off some Earthquakes and Wood Hammers to clear the path.

I've also had great success with that set by swicthing Stone Edge for Substitute and giving it a Liechi Berry, plus Seed Bomb instead of Wood Hammer. With Overgrow and a boost, that thing is literally a beast.

 

[Cynthia]

I agree with Seven Deadly Sins on Torterra, I've found it an extremely useful Pokemon in this environment, much more so than in OU.

Azumarill's a really good Pokemon too. It's bulky enough to make up for its lack of speed and its Aqua Jet is probably the strongest priority move in the game right now. Its movepool isn't great, but Water/Normal and a Fighting or Ice move is really all you need.

 

[speedwobbles225]

Number 1 underestimated threat: Torterra.

Torterra @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Wood Hammer
- Rock Polish

This thing absolutely rips up the metagame right now. Able to 2HKO or OHKO all the popular walls in the metagame without much fear, and hitting 422 Speed after a Rock Polish, this is probably the most destructive force in the metagame currently. It's also pretty much a 100% free switchin to Steelix and Registeel, and it's pretty much impossible for the average offensive team to shut it down, given that you need a Choice Scarfer with 80 Base Speed or more, and even base 90 Pokemon need a +Speed Nature (I know that Scarf Roserade fails to outspeed with Modest). It's also notable that 95/105/85 defenses are top-notch, and Registeel's Ice Punch fails to do more than 55%. Its typing is also pretty neat, resisting QuakeEdge from many physical attackers.

Seriously, you should try this thing out. Most teams have such hideous Torterra weaknesses that it's not even funny.

Yache is an option as recoil from life orb and wood hammer could significantly shorten your play time. Especially with such solid defenses.

I don't usually get too adventurous with items but Expert Belt or an Attack Plate might also be viable.

 

[Syberia]

I will agree, Rock Polish Torterra has been able to tear through many teams for me as well with little resistance. I just use Leftovers.

Anything it can't OHKO generally can't do anything back.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I agree that Torterra can be very threatening, but in my experience Shaymin is a very common presence and is often one of the last things to die due to its bulk and Natural Rest, making a Torterra sweep difficult to pull off.

I use Torterra on one of my teams but I've had more success using it as a wall-breaker with Swords Dance rather than the all-out Rock Polish sweeper. Yache Berry is very useful for avoiding a revenge kill and getting another surprise kill. One thing that Tortera has going for it is the ability to set up on a number of common walls with its T-Wave immunity and decent all-round bulk. I'm talking about stuff like Chansey, Registeel, CroTomb, Slowbro etc.

As for countering it, I use Tangrowth on my main team so I rarely have problems with it, but I do agree that many players out there tend to overlook it as an offensive threat when building their teams.

 

[kamikazeking05]

why no Torkoal love? I have ben using it extensively and here are some fo the things it can either take down ro hurt like a bitch.

Slaking- EQ is a KO, but switch in when it's not quaking

Medicham- Lol, even with Life Orb and what i assume was max atack it was a 5 ko, turned into a 8 ko thanks to a burn.

Gallade- Burn it. tada

-Ambipom- seriously cant touch your. Doube hit racks up about 30-33% a turn, so Plume it and your set. And return still does lolable damage.

-Roserade- Your set if it doesnt run sludgbomb, which some fo them admittedly do.

I would post more if i could remember them but yeah, Torkoal is the new sexy. It also wals Arcanine and Ninetales barring Toxic/Hypnosis.

Torkoal @ Lefties
252 Hp/ 212 Def/ 40 SpA
Relaxed nature
-Lava Plume
-SR
-Rapid Spin
-Stone edge