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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
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well i guess i saw that one coming so i didnt even bother with it :) im also befuddle as to how this is posted 7 minutes befor mine but ill just assume it's a sleep deprivation / hallucinating combo :)
There goes my team!
I agree that Wynaut was broken, though, and at the very least contaminated the UU test. I used one extensively, and its ability to eliminate virtually any wall, or turn it into sweeper setup fodder, was pretty game-breaking. Strategies like this one (I think my Wynaut was in this particular example) took no thought to execute.
I agree that Wynaut was broken, though, and at the very least contaminated the UU test. I used one extensively, and its ability to eliminate virtually any wall, or turn it into sweeper setup fodder, was pretty game-breaking. Strategies like this one (I think my Wynaut was in this particular example) took no thought to execute.
Raikou is starting to look like UU Garchomp. A seemingly one dimensional pokemon that has multiple effective sets (sub+lefties, specs, shuca+3 attacks, Life Orb). All of them will do a lot of damage if you try to counter the wrong set. 252/0 neutral Cladyol takes 90.12% - 106.17% damage from specs boosted Signal Beam, or it lets Raikou get 2 CMs if it Earthquakes the shuca version. If you assume its the shuca or LO version and try to status it, you risk having a sub thrown up in your face if you can't beat 115 base speed, and will forced out if you can't break the sub.
Steelix can take down all Raikous, taking 36.72% - 43.22% from +1 HP ground, though Steelix will lose to the shuca sweeper if it has taken 30% residual damage or if it isn't running Sassy nature with 252/252 sp def. For anyone that is thinking about running max sp def on claydol, that's pretty questionable considering Claydol's ground, rock and fighting resistances, and its water ice grass dark and ghost weaknesses. Chansey can beat all versions, except for the inevitable RestTaikou, although the fact that Chansey is beaten by all Resting Calm Mind tanks makes Chansey a pretty specific counter. The only other way to beat Raikou is by revenge killing it or switching in a faster threat while it uses Calm Mind. Kinda like Garchomp.
I would like to emphasize that I am not saying Steelix and Chansey are the only ways to beat Raikou, but that they're the only things that can beat all versions of Raikou. If you try to use the right counter against the wrong Raikou, you are going to get fucked. I actually came into UU thinking that it would suck or only be decent.
And if anybody posts something like "special defense Drapion counters Raikou, because I could Be Banned!" without posting damage calcs...
Steelix can take down all Raikous, taking 36.72% - 43.22% from +1 HP ground, though Steelix will lose to the shuca sweeper if it has taken 30% residual damage or if it isn't running Sassy nature with 252/252 sp def. For anyone that is thinking about running max sp def on claydol, that's pretty questionable considering Claydol's ground, rock and fighting resistances, and its water ice grass dark and ghost weaknesses. Chansey can beat all versions, except for the inevitable RestTaikou, although the fact that Chansey is beaten by all Resting Calm Mind tanks makes Chansey a pretty specific counter. The only other way to beat Raikou is by revenge killing it or switching in a faster threat while it uses Calm Mind. Kinda like Garchomp.
I would like to emphasize that I am not saying Steelix and Chansey are the only ways to beat Raikou, but that they're the only things that can beat all versions of Raikou. If you try to use the right counter against the wrong Raikou, you are going to get fucked. I actually came into UU thinking that it would suck or only be decent.
And if anybody posts something like "special defense Drapion counters Raikou, because I could Be Banned!" without posting damage calcs...
The theme of this post is: I never said that Raikou is broken.
My main concern is that Raikou isn't meant for UU play. Raikou would displace the already seldom used Pokemon in obscurity. It's better suited for BL or OU play. UU play is supposed to be distinct form OU, not a peewee OU metagame. UU used to have its own style of play. 'Broken' implies that nothing can stop comfortably without severe risk. Chansey and Steelix come into Raikou with minimum risk, but obviously repeated hits will take their toll. Raikou isn't meant for UU play, not because of brokenness, but because it ruins other true UU Pokemon's chances of play like Ampharos or other Special Sweepers or even walls. Clefable has a tough time taking on Raikou, whereas before Clefable used to be the stop to nearly all UU Special attackers. Raikou is much better suited for BL/OU play, not UU. Raikou is UU would trash plenty of previously UU-viable Pokemon in the NU pits. Stop the OU-tizing.
I'm surprised that Drapion is used at all for taking Special hits. It has 70 HP / 75 SpD with notable resistances to Grass and Ghost, and maybe Dark too (Dark attacks are usually physical). Drapion can EQ but it doesn't take +1 Thunderbolts well, especially without reliable recovery. Offensive sets like CM LO would scrap Drapion quickly.
I don't think Raikou in UU is as dangerous are Garchomp in OU, but Raikou will likely destroy teams pretty easily without Steelix, Chansey, or Camerupt. Careful prediction applies as always. HP Grass vs Ice is real problem for CM Sub sets, so Raikou can get outsmarted.
Again, I am not saying that Raikou is broken. Raikou is better suited for BL/OU play.
My main concern is that Raikou isn't meant for UU play. Raikou would displace the already seldom used Pokemon in obscurity. It's better suited for BL or OU play. UU play is supposed to be distinct form OU, not a peewee OU metagame. UU used to have its own style of play. 'Broken' implies that nothing can stop comfortably without severe risk. Chansey and Steelix come into Raikou with minimum risk, but obviously repeated hits will take their toll. Raikou isn't meant for UU play, not because of brokenness, but because it ruins other true UU Pokemon's chances of play like Ampharos or other Special Sweepers or even walls. Clefable has a tough time taking on Raikou, whereas before Clefable used to be the stop to nearly all UU Special attackers. Raikou is much better suited for BL/OU play, not UU. Raikou is UU would trash plenty of previously UU-viable Pokemon in the NU pits. Stop the OU-tizing.
I'm surprised that Drapion is used at all for taking Special hits. It has 70 HP / 75 SpD with notable resistances to Grass and Ghost, and maybe Dark too (Dark attacks are usually physical). Drapion can EQ but it doesn't take +1 Thunderbolts well, especially without reliable recovery. Offensive sets like CM LO would scrap Drapion quickly.
I don't think Raikou in UU is as dangerous are Garchomp in OU, but Raikou will likely destroy teams pretty easily without Steelix, Chansey, or Camerupt. Careful prediction applies as always. HP Grass vs Ice is real problem for CM Sub sets, so Raikou can get outsmarted.
Again, I am not saying that Raikou is broken. Raikou is better suited for BL/OU play.
Who cares about the "previously UU-viable Pokemon"? This is New UU. Don't play the game in terms of the old UU pokemon. Play it like it is. Read RBG's post, which says "don't be stuck in the mindset of 'Old UU'." It is clear from this post that you do not understand the purpose of this test.
Please don't theorymon. "would scrap" implies that you're guessing and you haven't tested it out yet. I've been using a RestTalk Drapion to take special hits and it's generally my 'go-to' switch when I'm not sure what the opponent will do and usually always one of or the last poke on my team to faint.
Lots of things can destroy opponents' teams if they don't carry a counter.
Again, you're stuck in the old mindset.
The theme of this post is: It's not bannable if it isn't broken.
It doesn't matter what YOU think the UU metagame "should be" because that's not what the test is about. The UU metagame is the following.
"Any Pokemon that is not OU and not banned to BL for being broken is usable in UU."
It's not something like, "UU isn't Mini-OU" or "UU is like OU without weather". Quit trying to say that it is.
It doesn't matter what YOU think the UU metagame "should be" because that's not what the test is about. The UU metagame is the following.
"Any Pokemon that is not OU and not banned to BL for being broken is usable in UU."
It's not something like, "UU isn't Mini-OU" or "UU is like OU without weather". Quit trying to say that it is.
That completely goes against the whole fucking point of this test, which was to give everything that was arbitrarily banned from old UU because it "has the potential to be Uber" a fair and equal 2 month test. If you can justify banning Wynaut after one week because "it has the potential to be Uber", why don't you just ban Raikou and Mismagius and Shaymin too, they "have the potential to be Uber". Hell, why don't we just ban everything that has the potential to Uber and just use NFEs, we can always test all those "potential Ubers" after the metagame has stabilized.
It destroys the integrity of this test and the staff when the staff tells us not to "theorymon", and that "every BL and NFE will be getting a fair and equal test", and then go and do something like this.
Fine. I have eloquently been thrashed.
I'm not surprised that a RestTalker would last towards the end of the game, especially on a fast Pokemon like Drapion. Slapping Rest and Sleep Talk turns plenty of Pokemon more resilient. Using the word 'would' insinuates theorymon... wow. That's a theory itself. I have used Drapion before actually. I haven't found it as useful as other walls who have plenty of useful resistances. Yes, I did say that careful prediction applies, meaning that I totally agree that no counter = destroy. I never said otherwise.
I am not too stubborn or proud to admit when I am wrong. I admit that I'm stuck in the old UU mindset. I am trying to move past that. It seems that the new UU today should be better called BL. Nevertheless, this is the way it is. I can't change it. I'll roll with it until otherwise. My opinions are that, mine.
I'm not surprised that a RestTalker would last towards the end of the game, especially on a fast Pokemon like Drapion. Slapping Rest and Sleep Talk turns plenty of Pokemon more resilient. Using the word 'would' insinuates theorymon... wow. That's a theory itself. I have used Drapion before actually. I haven't found it as useful as other walls who have plenty of useful resistances. Yes, I did say that careful prediction applies, meaning that I totally agree that no counter = destroy. I never said otherwise.
I am not too stubborn or proud to admit when I am wrong. I admit that I'm stuck in the old UU mindset. I am trying to move past that. It seems that the new UU today should be better called BL. Nevertheless, this is the way it is. I can't change it. I'll roll with it until otherwise. My opinions are that, mine.
To me, Raikou seems more like Ttar than Garchomp. With Garchomp, everyone ran the exact same set.
Garchomp@Yache
Jolly 252 atk, 252 spd, 6hp
Swords Dance
Earthquake
Outrage
Fire Fang
You knew it had this set, you prepared for this set, and yet it still ate your team.
Now with Ttar, it could be running CB, it could be running Dragon Dance, it could be running support, or it could be running subpunch. You don't know immediately, and guessing wrong could hurt a lot. But Swampert was always a pretty good choice, and once you knew, you could generally deal with it.
That's where I see Raikou right now. It could be Shuca, Sub-CM, Specs, Life Orb, or Cro, but once you know, you know how to counter it. Sub-CM just needs a good physical attacker that can take Raikou's hits. Shuca is somewhat done in by its lack of boosted offence. Specs and Cro have only one attacking move. Life Orb has next to no defenses, so outspeed and KO, or just hit it with a good EQ from something that can take its hit. And Steelix is pretty much never a bad choice.
In matches, I often find myself trading my Registeel for my opponent's Raikou. I have no problem with this trade, as it removes a very dangerous threat to my team, and I've usually had time to set up rocks by then anyways. Though Registeel can't handle CroKou, it poses no threat to a ground-type.
Garchomp@Yache
Jolly 252 atk, 252 spd, 6hp
Swords Dance
Earthquake
Outrage
Fire Fang
You knew it had this set, you prepared for this set, and yet it still ate your team.
Now with Ttar, it could be running CB, it could be running Dragon Dance, it could be running support, or it could be running subpunch. You don't know immediately, and guessing wrong could hurt a lot. But Swampert was always a pretty good choice, and once you knew, you could generally deal with it.
That's where I see Raikou right now. It could be Shuca, Sub-CM, Specs, Life Orb, or Cro, but once you know, you know how to counter it. Sub-CM just needs a good physical attacker that can take Raikou's hits. Shuca is somewhat done in by its lack of boosted offence. Specs and Cro have only one attacking move. Life Orb has next to no defenses, so outspeed and KO, or just hit it with a good EQ from something that can take its hit. And Steelix is pretty much never a bad choice.
In matches, I often find myself trading my Registeel for my opponent's Raikou. I have no problem with this trade, as it removes a very dangerous threat to my team, and I've usually had time to set up rocks by then anyways. Though Registeel can't handle CroKou, it poses no threat to a ground-type.
Shuca berry's lack of LO boost is offset by the free turn of CM boost it gets when the opponent tries to kill you with Earthquake. As for your comparison to Tyranitar, it may be closer to Tyranitar than Garchomp because it only has access to +1 boosting, but Ttar has 3 x2 and 1 x4 weaknesses compared to Raikou's 1 x2, and all of Ttar's standard physical offensives can be defended against by either Fighting types (Machamp, Breloom, Lucario) or Ground Types (Hippowdon, Swampert, Donphan, Gliscor, Rhyperior), regardless of whether it's banded or DD. Pokemon that can defend against Raikou's standard special offense of electric, bug, ghost and ground are few, mainly Steelix, Nidoqueen, Gastrodon and Chansey. One of those pokemon does absolutely nothing productive, the other is setup bait for other sweepers. Nidoqueen's typing (water, ice and psychic weaknesses vs. fighting and rock resistances) make special defense evs a specialization just to counter one pokemon, which basically leaves us with Steelix as the only thing that isn't a specialized Raikou counter.
From what I've seen in UU so far the most common special attackers have been Shaymin and Raikou. Regice can counter both of them, but Regice also has a lot of problems due to SR. Whether or not they are too good for UU is for the voters to decide after the testing period, but so far they are pretty much forcing people to use certain pokemon.
The most common starters are Frosslass, Roserade, and Crobat. Though I have found a lot of success with Honchkrow on as my lead using this set.
Honchkrow
Life Orb, Adamant
252 atk/252 spd/4 hp
Sucker Punch - can deal massive amounts of damage to sweepers and leads (OHKO Roserade, 85-100% on sweepers like magmortar, gallade, medicham,etc)
Pursuit - can be used to chase after retreating leads and ghosts (and claydol)
Taunt - enough said
Drill Peck - STABed attack
Meanwhile I've also seen a lot of the glaceons that was previously posted and milotics. Both being extremely annoying, though glaceon only if it has the proper support. Meanwhile milotic has really great defenses, decent speed, and recover.
The most common starters are Frosslass, Roserade, and Crobat. Though I have found a lot of success with Honchkrow on as my lead using this set.
Honchkrow
Life Orb, Adamant
252 atk/252 spd/4 hp
Sucker Punch - can deal massive amounts of damage to sweepers and leads (OHKO Roserade, 85-100% on sweepers like magmortar, gallade, medicham,etc)
Pursuit - can be used to chase after retreating leads and ghosts (and claydol)
Taunt - enough said
Drill Peck - STABed attack
Meanwhile I've also seen a lot of the glaceons that was previously posted and milotics. Both being extremely annoying, though glaceon only if it has the proper support. Meanwhile milotic has really great defenses, decent speed, and recover.
Hilarious
They say to us not to theorymon before the test has ended and now the PR is doing it themselfs.
It was banned from all tiers as an Uber, not just from UU. There was no "theory ban" here. Wynaut was banned alongside Wobbuffet because both abuse the same "Shadow Tag + Encore + Tickle/Destiny Bond + Being faster than most walls" strategy that is absolutely broken.
I think people are getting the wrong end of the stick here, so I'll try to put it in a different perspective. Wynaut has been removed from the UU ladder because it has the potential to be Uber, not just BL. This means that it is suspect material in OU in addition to UU. It has not yet been fairly tested in OU, so if you stand by your above assertion you should be advocating the testing of Latias in UU as well.
Erm lol. Do you realise that Raikou can't use Choice Specs, Sleep Talk, Life Orb, Calm Mind, Signal Beam, Shuca Berry, Subsitute and HP Ground all at the same time?
And oh yeah, Psych-up Regice beats all Raikou for that matter. Modest Specs Thunderbolt doesn't even do 30% on average to 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm versions. And don't even say oh, mono-attacker Raikou when it automatically loses to any Ground-type in the world.
Or you know use Rotom who doesn't need gimmicky EVs and stops it spamming Return.
Choice Band Adamant Staraptor's Brave Bird to 252/252 Bold Rotom: 42.43% - 50.33%
Not only is that a 97% 2KO with SR, but it also requires you to pretty much sacrifice any chance of Rotom doing anything else on your team period. What a counter.
Not only is that a 97% 2KO with SR, but it also requires you to pretty much sacrifice any chance of Rotom doing anything else on your team period. What a counter.
Isn't that theory? You say that tactic is absolutly broken when it is only been tested for a week?
And sorry but Clefable a pokemon with only 60 Base speed needs only 16Spe ev's to outspeed a max speed Wynaut i won't consider that 'fast'
You joined very recently, so I'm going to assume you missed the vote on Wobbuffet. If you didn't, then you're obviously ignoring it for no reason. The community voted on Wobbuffet, and the overwhelming response was that Shadow Tag + Encore (+ Tickle/Destiny Bond) + Outspeeding Walls was broken as hell. There's nothing "theory" about calling a set used by a nearly identical banned Pokemon broken.
Also, just so you know, I'm not talking out my ass. This thing is hideously broken. I used it to ensure a Linoone sweep by taking out my opponent's Steel-type, and then sweeping with an unstoppable Belly Drum Linoone. It's not even remotely fair.
EDIT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1265785&postcount=1
This is IPL's vote on Wobbuffet, and it pretty much sums up why Wynaut should also be banned- It will get its mark 100% of the time, no matter what.
Also, just so you know, I'm not talking out my ass. This thing is hideously broken. I used it to ensure a Linoone sweep by taking out my opponent's Steel-type, and then sweeping with an unstoppable Belly Drum Linoone. It's not even remotely fair.
EDIT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1265785&postcount=1
This is IPL's vote on Wobbuffet, and it pretty much sums up why Wynaut should also be banned- It will get its mark 100% of the time, no matter what.
lol Thorns, me and Legacy Raider spent the best part of 2 / 3 hours trying to create a Wynaut team that will prove that it *was* utterly broken. We did in fact find it quite tough to use at first, but by the end of the evening we were "getting there" with it, and it was proving quite effective alongside this guy:
Feraligatr @ Liechi Berry
Jolly Nature / Torrent
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def / 192 Spe
~ Substitute
~ Dragon Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Return
A simple Sub and boost Berry set up, but my god does Torrent + Waterfall +2 Attck hurt >_< I'm trying to theorymon a team to use this thing to it's best potential right now, so hopefully it'll go alright! But I suggest people start trying this, all you need is the one free turn to substitute, and it's deadly!
What proportion of Raptor are CB and Adamant? Considering that it can switch into all of its attacks bar one attack on a set that isn't the most popular, needs SR support for the 2HKO, and also isn't the initial attack of any Staraptor, I'd say its a good counter. Particularly as Rotom can actually wall other stuff like Fighters.
Why are people whining about Raikou so much? The only time I'm having troubles with it is when:
A - My Regice has been removed
B - My Claydol has dropped to around 70%-ish health
Seismic Toss Regice is a bitch to take down. People expect it to boltbeam, but Seismic Toss and Thunder Wave nerf so many things its not funny anymore. Particulary Raikou. Sleeping varieties can be met with Quakes, although that is a tad risky, it does work.
A - My Regice has been removed
B - My Claydol has dropped to around 70%-ish health
Seismic Toss Regice is a bitch to take down. People expect it to boltbeam, but Seismic Toss and Thunder Wave nerf so many things its not funny anymore. Particulary Raikou. Sleeping varieties can be met with Quakes, although that is a tad risky, it does work.
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