np: Latias - Don't Do the Dew! (NOTE: explanation of Skymin's fate within)

im sure tays team is absolutely better than everyone elses and far superior to mine. just because one person rapes the ladder doesnt mean everyone could. im sure even tay has had his string of absolutely boring games as well and im sure hes had some games where his team has been matched up with a team almost identical to his (which happens to me every fucking time x[ that is why i lose some / win some for all my battles) but im sure tay has a way to counter it.

im also sure his team is one of the few teams that could consistently win and counter teams identical to it.

but who wants to be playing in a metagame full of "tay teams" (which i am certain will happen once people realize it is so hard to win consistently)?
 
The thing about Tay's claim is that he blaims Latias, but is it really her fault? Or is it just the presense of dragons altogether? She takes the blame because she's the newest "add-on" to the metagame, but in actuality the problem lies in the number of dragons. She isn't near as dangerous as, say, Salamence to me. He's just as much to blame as Latias but is a hidden culprit simply because he's been around, while she has not. Always blame the newcomer. XD

Blame Game could argue this whole "who's fault is it" thing a lot better than me (considering of course that he saw and sided with the argument).
 
thats odd i would have thought that rest + st careful drapion with toxic spikes and crunch would be very good on suspect as it helps wear down blissey and tar (tar only by ts) and counters latias. obviously scizor would still be a threat though but thats why we use rotom-h!

Sure that might look nice on paper. Have fun using Drapion when nearly everything hits it pretty hard.

Secondly, the reason TSpikes isnt' very useful is that it doesn't hit many things in the suspect ladder. See TAY's post for example

Also I would appreciate it if you dont' post "I would have thought" comments in this thread when we have pointed out explicitly many times it is not for theorymon.

tay is absolutely right imo, this metagame is so boring with latias, sure it is counterable but every team is going to consist of scizor / latias / mence / metagross if it does go ou. i dont want to hear the "well its suspect ladder, latias always will be used" i was perfectly able to battle without deoxys-s on the standard ladder when he was being tested there. And so were plenty of others. Once Latias becomes official OU, he will be on the same team, I am definitely seeing it happen.

basically games on the suspect ladder are "who can keep their steels / dragons alive the longest in case a latias shows up". i definitely dont want to see this thing become ou, it overcentralizes it way too much.

Uh, Deoxys E was allowed in the standard, banned on suspect. I have pointed this out and showed the effects. It has a definite effect on the gameplay experience of suspect so I don't know what you're talking about lol

Don't say "suspect" 'overcentralizes' (its not like we'll be accepting overcentralize as a valid argument anyway!!!) anything because what SDS actually pointed out actually came strikingly close to reality. This is not to say that the test was useless, because the point was for you to see how useful Latias is by using it or playing against it, not making blanket statements like this lol

i cant even get a consistent rating because every match is basically the same so its almost impossible the build up a long streak / keep a consistent win percentage.

If everything is "basically the same" then you shouldn't be losing.
 
able to battle without deoxys-s on the standard ladder

sorry if i wasnt clear here, i meant that i didnt need to use deoxys-s to be able to win when it was being tested on standard ladder. however with latias testing, it has to be on my team for me to even stand a chance.
 
No, seriously, why do people keep referring to Latias as if she's male?

Anyway, I've been finding it hard to win consistently as well, although I'd have to say that's more due to my screwing up a prediction at a crucial moment or getting haxed and less to do with "who can keep their steels / dragons alive the longest in case a latias shows up."

In all honesty, I don't run any real Latias Counters in the strictest sense of the term, I don't think (the only pokemon I have that can really be said to do so is Jirachi, but since he runs Expert Belt over CS and therefore slower it's kinda tricky) but never really have problems with it, nor with all of Latias's counters running about. I mean, really, is it that necessary to pack three counters for it on a team and run a Magnezone in reserve (the latter, by the way, is the sole reason my standard team didn't work on suspect. I was running three steels before Latias even entered the picture!)?

Man, I wish I didn't suck so much at singles, but I'm going to try to get my rating up as high as possible without using a "TAY team"...in fact, I may just use a team with various UUs mixed in, just maybe.
 
Veedrock said:
The thing about Tay's claim is that he blaims Latias, but is it really her fault?
Well considering that the pretty clearly "unnaturally high" Latias usage suggests that we can hardly trust the statistics to reflect what we'd actually see if/once Latias were actually made OU, I don't think we could even really get as far as asking whether "Latias or Salamence (or whatever) is to blame," when the "problem" that they supposedly cause in the first place is arguably based on multiple factors outside their actual strength.

I actually think Jumpman addressed this issue in the "Portrait of an Uber" PR thread, and I think the basic idea is that "we don't care about centralization-based arguments so if that's all you've got, Latias will become OU, and then we'll find out if the metagame centralizes too greatly around dragons/steels, and if it does, we'll go from there." At this point since Latias is labeled "Suspect," obviously we'd end up banning it if it fit any of the Uber Characteristics. If it becomes OU, then, yes, we might have a problem of people calling Latias into question again, even if it, say, drops below Salamence in usage, and I might have to start whining about "bias" again.

That's just my understanding of the situation though so please correct me if I'm mistaken anywhere.
 
With so little time remaining in the Latias test, I find that I am honestly still uncertain as to my opinion of Latias. Part of this is my own fault, as I have still only used one(!) Latias set. Personally, I've come to the conclusion that when Latias is evaluated by the OC or DC clauses of our definition of Uber, she fails. She is unable to easily sweep a team with Tyranitar, Weavile, Metagross, Scizor, or Mamoswine, nor can she stall out any of these. Tyranitar, Scizor, and Metagross are among the most common Pokemon even in the Suspect-free Standard metagame, so their presence as checks--and in Metagross' case I would go so far as to call it a "counter"--keeps Latias from being too dominant as a sweeper and as a wall. The reason I hesitate to advocate Latias for OU is that I haven't tested Latias as a dedicated Support Pokemon, such as employing dual screens. If possible, I'd like to hear more from people who have used Latias primarily for support, and I plan on trying her out this way in the immediate future myself.
 
I've faced DS Latias and used it myself (though my team could probably use some refinement). I don't know, I just don't feel much more threatened by it than I am by Bronzong or what have you, but that's just me.
 
I got to my point on the ladder using DS Latias, and despite both Latias and the common passer Gliscor being weak to ice, they compliment each other quite well. At this point, I'm inclined to agree with TAY and be among the minority that dislike Latias in OU simply due to the centralization aspect.
 
I got to my point on the ladder using DS Latias, and despite both Latias and the common passer Gliscor being weak to ice, they compliment each other quite well. At this point, I'm inclined to agree with TAY and be among the minority that dislike Latias in OU simply due to the centralization aspect.


Let me remind everyone again that disliking Latias in OU and believing it to be Uber are two rather different things. "It centralizes the metagame" is not a sufficient argument in itself for a Pokemon to be Uber. Can Latias sweep through much of the metagame with little effort? Can it stall out much of the metagame with little effort? Can it support other Pokemon to allow them to sweep through the metagame with little effort?

Edit: addressing Veedrock's question about whether this is really Latias' fault, I'd like to reiterate that Latias' checks are already among the most commonly used Pokemon even in the Standard metagame. In December, Scizor was #1, Tyranitar #4, Metagross #11. If that's not enough, Jirachi is #13, Weavile is #26, and Mamoswine #31. Mamoswine and Magnezone were much more common on the Suspect Ladder than on Standard, but that's hardly a revelation, or the massive overcentralization that TAY is describing.
 
Building on what reachzero said, I'm going to throw this out there again: is it really Latias' fault?!

Sorry, I just feel that's been ignored. But honestly, you say it's centralized around Latias' but SDS is right; people play suspect if they want to use/deal with Latias, and if they don't, they play standard. That "centralization" argument is flawed because that is what a seperate ladder creates; a metagame build around the suspect. The system is a fluke (sadly). If this isn't the case, correct me. If Latias does make it to OU, chances are that it becomes as scarce as Kingdra (ok, maybe not THAT scarce but not super OU like in suspect). But you'll still see the same "centralization" around Dragons/steels, with little to no Latias to be found. Will this not be hard evidence that Latias' isn't the culprit and is simply taking the blame because she's new?

Oh, and just wait until Latios rolls along. THEN I may agree, (I already ranted about how the Latios test will be thrown, so I won't go there), but right now I'm not buying it.

I probably sound like a broken record, huh?
 
Originally Posted by Blame Game
I've faced DS Latias and used it myself (though my team could probably use some refinement). I don't know, I just don't feel much more threatened by it than I am by Bronzong or what have you, but that's just me.

Thats because DS Latias is overrated. Bronzong, Azelf, and Alakazam are all better at DS. Why? Bronzong and Azelf can explode out and grant your passer / sweeper a free switch. Alakazam can abuse Encore to get that same free switch. Latias doesn't do this. She has to rely on Roar to stop stat-uppers and none of her moves other than Momento will give your team a free switch (which actually doesn't sound like a bad idea).

Originally Posted by Veedrock
Building on what reachzero said, I'm going to throw this out there again: is it really Latias' fault?!

Nope, its the fault of the system. Latias should be on the standard ladder, then have a Latias free metagame on the suspect ladder. A lot of people don't really care for this test because they simply don't have to deal with latias if they don't want to. Standard kind of forces people to have an opinion because they have to battle with it.

Centralization around Dragon / Steels? I see nothing different back from the Garchomp days. My team in those times was Bronzong / Heatran / Jirachi... alongside Gyarados and Garchomp. Why is that any different from what happens on the Suspect ladder??? Its always been that way. So I find that to be a pretty piss poor argument. You don't need Dragons or Steels to win... people just use that because that metagame is purposely centered around Latias and Latias' counters.
 
Thats because DS Latias is overrated. Bronzong, Azelf, and Alakazam are all better at DS. Why? Bronzong and Azelf can explode out and grant your passer / sweeper a free switch. Alakazam can abuse Encore to get that same free switch. Latias doesn't do this. She has to rely on Roar to stop stat-uppers and none of her moves other than Momento will give your team a free switch (which actually doesn't sound like a bad idea)
It would appear that, according to Serebii, Latias does not get Memento, only Latios.
 
When I was thinking about the recent posts on this thread, I noticed a few things regarding my own experience with the suspect ladder.

Sure, I used Latias to begin with, and most people did the same. However, in no way did I plan on using Latias for the entire test. If Latias became dead weight on my team, I would replace it. I haven't replaced it though, as I still find it useful even though everyone is 'prepared for it'. Now, I'm not saying it's ravaging though everyone even though they're trying to counter it - I'm saying that it has continually done what I expected it to do. The reason I mention this is that many people seem to be taking the wrong approach to this. They find Latias 'underwhelming', and as a result they probably won't battle as much as needed. That's exactly the type of problem Suspect has right now.

In order to be able to make a good judgment on whether or not a Suspect is Uber, a 'suspect metagame' actually has to take place. It's extremely hard to make the case arguing that this has actually occurred, or is occurring as we speak. How much team evolution has there been? Hell, how can you actually make good decisions on how specific pokemon are doing when you aren't able to get enough battles featuring different teams in order to do so? There just aren't enough people playing suspect consistently, and that makes it even harder for those of us who do care about the test to actually want to participate. I hate to draw such harsh conclusions, but it seems that the suspect ladder is played quite a bit because it's shiny and new, and with the release of the new UU recently, suspect seems to have died off. The only people playing seem to be ones trying to become eligible for voting. Frankly, I think I won't be able to come to a solid conclusion on Latias' fate unless the ladder significantly picks up in the next few days.


A couple additional points:


-----

We mention the difficulty of gauging just how the metagame would be centralized around Latias when it's use is going to be expectantly higher than under 'normal' circumstances. However, you could still come to some conclusions, based on the idea that usage of the Suspect should drop during the second half of the test if it is indeed underwhelming. The statistics could also show a decrease in the Suspect's use if it was easily countered of course, but in that case we would likely see the usage of just a couple other pokemon skyrocket in it's place. Of course, all of this assumes ideal circumstances - those of a 'suspect metagame' - which aren't actually in place.

-----

I feel that overcentralization of Dragon/Steel is actually a valid argument as long as we agree that the health of the standard metagame is important. There are only so many pokemon that can take strong Dragon-type moves from strong Dragon type pokemon. Anyone who has ever lost a steel due to a crit Draco Meteor can attest to that. It's not hard to envision a scenario in which adding another strong Dragon threat could cause serious damage to the diversity of pokemon in the standard metagame. A factor which makes this even worse is Magnet Pull. Due to Magnezone, steel use is often risky. Either you lose your leftovers (and have more problems dealing with dragons as a result), or you make a concerted effort to 'scout' for it. Things are even further complicated by Dugtrio. You might use Dugtrio to kill the Magnezones which kill your Steels which you need to have any chance to counter the Dragon threat. The Dragon user can then use Porygon2 to kill off Dugtrio (and opposing magnezones locked into hp fire), with the added side-effect of dealing with DDmence as well. This seems like a ridiculous scenario, but when you start 'needing' certain pokemon in order to compete those are the results.

I believe TAY was describing the suspect ladder as similar to that, in both this thread and in the RMT which mentioned the viability of simply double switching from latias to magnezone.
 
QibingZero, I think you put a number of things very nicely, but I think the one you are most correct about is that what is really giving this Suspect test so much trouble is that the Suspect Ladder is having all of its life sucked out by the introduction of the new UU. Latias is hardly the "new" or "fresh" thing that people are talking about, when there are some dozen new, fresh Pokemon to play with in UU.
 
QibingZero, I think you put a number of things very nicely, but I think the one you are most correct about is that what is really giving this Suspect test so much trouble is that the Suspect Ladder is having all of its life sucked out by the introduction of the new UU. Latias is hardly the "new" or "fresh" thing that people are talking about, when there are some dozen new, fresh Pokemon to play with in UU.

I disagree to some extent. The UU process has just been going on for a little over a week (it only started on January 5th iirc) and the initial excitement is already losing steam (as is expected). I think it initially drew away from the Latias test but it's died down significantly and people are trailing back to the Suspect ladder. Plus, it's really not that hard to play both ladders.
 
I disagree to some extent. The UU process has just been going on for a little over a week (it only started on January 5th iirc) and the initial excitement is already losing steam (as is expected). I think it initially drew away from the Latias test but it's died down significantly and people are trailing back to the Suspect ladder. Plus, it's really not that hard to play both ladders.
Depends on what times you log on. Maybe if your battling in the most active times of the day you might still find a battle easily however this doesn't seem to be the case when i log on.

As far as i know of all 'side' ladders new UU is the only one i never have trouble to find a match.
 
Testing ends on the 19th. Everyone who is interesting in voting needs to get their numbers to where they need to be.
 
Well, looks as if I won't be able to vote--either making the rating is harder than I thought or I really am that bad, not to mention I'll be unable to play the last days of the test due to my being out of town--but I hope the voting goes smoothly!

By the way, am I the only one seeing a lot of SkarmBliss recently on Suspect? Makes me wish I could fit an Infernape or Blaziken into my team.
 
I only know of one user that specifically uses SkarmBliss.

Yeah, I've been trying to make rating and I thought I have a shot but then I run into the same 2-3 people that have my team stomped (and while I should adjust for it, I'm not too good at memorizing things their pokes and strategies, and I shouldn't have to adjust my team to one user). I'd kill to vote, but it's not looking plausible.

Yeah, upper rating people are scrambling to get their deviation down, and on average I can't beat them. My deviation is at 45 even (lower than any of the qualified voters =/) so my rating is at a near standstill. Without consistant winning, I'm stuck outside of voting privileges. (An alt won't work either because I still can't beat these last minute people).
 
The voting requirements are atrocious =/
i agree to an extent

i don't really see why the requirements are so high for the lack of traffic the suspect ladder has. each ladder should have its own requirement depending on how much its played and not just use the requirements for the standard ladder, since its is much easier to get the rating needed on the standard ladder.
 
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