Glitched Weather in English Platinum [Part 2, Clearer Video] (Update March 18, 2009)

[obi]

Do you really think Fire Fang always hitting through Wonder Guard (even if it's on Porygon2 or Gardevoir) was intentional? Shoal Salt specifically goes against its in-game description. I'm fairly certain Nintendo didn't intend for a frozen Flash Fire Pokemon to take normal damage from Fire attacks. How are those not bugs? And besides, as soon as we accept the argument "They're going to change that eventually, anyway", then no proposal is too absurd, because they could theoretically make any change they want.

And Doug isn't the only one who can implement them. Shoddy is an open source program; anyone can modify the code. Now whether he will host a server with this change is a different story. However, your argument is basically "People are against it now, so just give up.". That is a horrible philosophy. The whole point of discussion is to attempt to change people's minds, not to confirm what they already believe.

 

[Griffin]

Do you really think Fire Fang always hitting through Wonder Guard (even if it's on Porygon2 or Gardevoir) was intentional?

This is irrelevant because you're not going to have anything with wonder guard except Shedinja anyway.

Shoal Salt specifically goes against its in-game description. How are those not bugs?

If there was a way to figure out the way Shoal Shell was supposed to work in-game I'd support putting on Shoddy correctly. I think we should be playing the Pokémon game as it was made rather than how it turned out.

And Doug isn't the only one who can implement them. Shoddy is an open source program; anyone can modify the code. Now whether he will host a server with this change is a different story. However, your argument is basically "People are against it now, so just give up.". That is a horrible philosophy. The whole point of discussion is to attempt to change people's minds, not to confirm what they already believe.

True, my fault.

 

[sora13]

I would just like to take a momentary break from this discussion to transcribe perhaps the greatest line I've heard from a Pokemon game in a while:

Scizor is hurt by Technician!

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nvg-m4fJzs )

Yeah, I love the part where Rhyperior is "hurt" by Solid rock which is wierd since Solid Rock boosts defences.

 

[obi]

This is irrelevant because you're not going to have anything with wonder guard except Shedinja anyway.

"Gardevoir switched in! Gardevoir's Trace Traced Wonder Guard!"

If there was a way to figure out the way Shoal Shell was supposed to work in-game I'd support putting on Shoddy correctly. I think we should be playing the Pokémon game as it was made rather than how it turned out.

How the game was made is how it turned out. The two terms on synonymous. I'd assume that the move's in-game description would be a valid indicator of GameFreak's intent. But we don't play games based on developer intent (Garchomp isn't uber, Celebi and Jirachi are, Latias and Latios aren't but Soul Dew is), we play within the confines of the game.

The code is the final arbiter.

 

[Tucker]

There's a line between simulation, and common sense. Is there a Freeze Clause/Sleep Clause on DP Wifi, no, why do we impliment one because it makes sense. The community decided that if every pokemon on someones team is asleep there at a big disadvantage so we, the community created the sleep clause, freeze, species, and other clauses, because they made sense.

Same application applies here, stop thinking about simulation and start using common sense, this in no way was inteded for Platinum. Someone with common sense can see that Gamefreak did not pruposely impose a Acid Rain effect in Platinum sheerly for kicks, Gamefreak is notorious for it's plethora of glitches, with only a few games being safe from them, Missigno, Cloning Glitch 2nd Gen, Cloning Glitch 3rd Gen, No Guard Protect, 4th Cloning Glitch, Safari Zone Glitch, Mew Glitch, the list goes on.

Small story short lets stop theorizing what Gamefreak might have wanted and face that this is a Community built game, and it makes no sense to impliment an untested glitch into the game.

 

[Griffin]

"Gardevoir switched in! Gardevoir's Trace Traced Wonder Guard!"

I thought things like skill swap and and trace didn't work on wonder guard? Well, in that case I still think it should be the way it was made (see below). I. e. Fire Fang not hitting through Wonder Guard.

How the game was made is how it turned out. The two terms on synonymous. I'd assume that the move's in-game description would be a valid indicator of GameFreak's intent.

I worded it badly. With how it was made I meant how it was designed to be, before it went to the coders.

But we don't play games based on developer intent (Garchomp isn't uber, Celebi and Jirachi are, Latias and Latios aren't but Soul Dew is), we play within the confines of the game.

The code is the final arbiter.

This one is tricky, but I think we should change the metagame when something turned out in a way that it was not intended. Garchomp being standard was intended, but I don't think he was supposed to be as broken as he turned out to be (and vice versa for Celebi and Jirachi). Gamefreak obviously didn't want a completely unbalanced and less enjoyable metagame.

 

[Naxte]

You guys are completely missing the point.

It does not matter what Nintendo intended to do, or intends to do in the future. All that matters is what actually happens. If it's possible to figure out exactly under what circumstances this glitch happens, then it needs to be implimented on Shoddy. You can't just change game mechanics because you feel like it.

Then our priorities really need to be examined if we'll conduct tests in an environment that is obviously only temporary and will need to redo them afterwards just so we can say that we were faithful to a glitched game. I mean, yes, we should strive to be as faithful to the games as possible, but in this case, since it's so obviously a glitch, and one that should be fixed by Nintendo once the US version is released, in the end, it would seem counter-productive to implement. And personally, that seems more significant to me than being true to the glitched-versions of the game.

But this again boils down to a difference of philosophy, I suppose; the end result will be the same here, and it's just the way of getting there and the amount of time that journey takes that will be different. If Smogon turns out to be more interested in being more interested in accurately replicating the latest version of the games, including glitches, than following the most time-effective process and having the most enjoyable and user-friendly meta-game, then so be it, I suppose.

 

[billymills]

While it's obviously a glitch, it should be implemented on shoddy battle only once we have exact specifics. Does it only work when something switches out from pursuit, does it affect other moves.

What happens if you add sunny day or yet another rain dance into the equation. We need to specify exactly what happens, when it happens, and where it happens before we decide to implement it.

That being said, since shoddy battle is supposed to replicate the game as best possible. As soon as the glitch is known, it should be implemented.

 

[twash]

I thought things like skill swap and and trace didn't work on wonder guard? Well, in that case I still think it should be the way it was made (see below). I. e. Fire Fang not hitting through Wonder Guard.

Wonder Guard cannot be Skill Swapped nor Role Played, but it can be "gained" through Trace or Transform. So really, there's Ditto, Mew, Gardevoir, Porygon2, and obviously Shedinja who can benefit from Wonder Guard.

I have no problem with this "killer rain" being implemented on Shoddy.

 

[Stellar]

I've noticed that some Pokemon display the Pokemon was hurt by it's -. This message is obviously connected with the Pokemon's second ability. It shows Scizor was hurt by it's Technician. But Forretress was hurt by it's -. Forretress does not have second ability so - is displayed.

 

[Syberia]

It could have simply been a badly-hacked Forretress; I've accidentally used a Zapdos with no ability before, and it displayed as "-".

 

[Griffin]

Wonder Guard cannot be Skill Swapped nor Role Played, but it can be "gained" through Trace or Transform. So really, there's Ditto, Mew, Gardevoir, Porygon2, and obviously Shedinja who can benefit from Wonder Guard.

I have no problem with this "killer rain" being implemented on Shoddy.

The more you know...

But I stand by my opinion that Fire Fang (I think there are a few other moves that break through Wonder Guard) should be "fixed".

 

[RBG]

The more you know...

But I stand by my opinion that Fire Fang (I think there are a few other moves that break through Wonder Guard) should be "fixed".

It is "fixed". Instead of doing what it is supposed to do, it is doing what it does in the game.

 

[Griffin]

It is "fixed". Instead of doing what it is supposed to do, it is doing what it does in the game.

Hence the quotation marks. I mean I think it should be as was intended. "Fixed" from my point of view.

 

[RBG]

Hence the quotation marks. I mean I think it should be as was intended. "Fixed" from my point of view.

We don't play pokemon "how it was intended". We play pokemon how it was given to us. In RBY, focus energy, despite saying it made critical hits more likely, actually prevented them from happening. But since we are playing "Pokemon as it was given to us", and not "Pokemon as we think they wanted it to be", Focus Energy was implemented that way. How do you know what the developers intended? Before Platinum came out, would you have known the the U-Turn/Choice Item glitch was how it was intended or not?

 

[EeveeTrainer]

For reference, can somebody please post exactly which glitches Nintendo has fixed between different countries' versions of the same game? (eg, not between Diamond and Platinum but between JP Diamond and US Diamond). I'm referring to in-battle mechanics, not things like the "catch Shaymin/Darkrai" or "get any breeding combo via Sketch/Transform".

 

[Griffin]

We don't play pokemon "how it was intended". We play pokemon how it was given to us.

And that's what I disagree with. Why not solve problems when you have the chance?

In RBY, focus energy, despite saying it made critical hits more likely, actually prevented them from happening. But since we are playing "Pokemon as it was given to us", and not "Pokemon as we think they wanted it to be", Focus Energy was implemented that way. How do you know what the developers intended? Before Platinum came out, would you have known the the U-Turn/Choice Item glitch was how it was intended or not?

If you don't know what it was supposed to be, or if you don't know whether or not it was intended, leave it as it is. However, that's clearly not the case with this weather, we can all agree that this is not how pursuit is supposed to work.

 

[Deaga]

Why is everyone so against the idea of implementing this just because it is a glitch? We've always implemented move glitches on simulatos. ALWAYS. Just go play any RBY match; the second your Hyper Beam doesn't recharge because you KO'd your opponent, it's a glitch. But it's there, because that's how it works on the cartridges.

Obviously, ever since GSC, Nintendo has fixed it, and as such so have the simulators. They're always keeping up with "lastest version", if you will. That's why Shoddy has 60% accurate Hypnosis: that's how it works on the lastest version, Japanese Platinum. And that is why the killer rain should be implemented: that's just how it works. Obviously, should Nintendo fix that in English Platinum, we should get rid of it aswell, because the lastest version doesn't have it. It's the same with illegal Egg move combinations.

However, it's quite clear that, before even attempting to code this into shoddy, we should get a clear understanding of how the hell it works. In my opinion, it's better to simply wait for the american version of Platinum and see if the glitch is fixed there. If it is, then it shouldn't be implemented anyway, so it won't be really necessary to figure it out.

 

[RBG]

I know for a fact they fixed at least 1 glitch:

If you used Pursuit on a Pokemon while you had a choice Band in Diamond (Japan) as they switched out on your first turn, you could choose a new move to be locked into. Apparently, this glitch existed in ADV as well.

EDIT:

And that's what I disagree with. Why not solve problems when you have the chance?

Talk to Obi about what changes he would make if we were allowed to "Fix things".

Here are the facts:

1. We are simulating cartridge play.
2. This glitch exists on the cartridge.
3. In order to truly simulate the cartridge, we must use the glitch.

Please tell me where I made my mistake.

 

[EeveeTrainer]

I know for a fact they fixed at least 1 glitch:

If you used Pursuit on a Pokemon while you had a choice Band in Diamond (Japan) as they switched out on your first turn, you could choose a new move to be locked into. Apparently, this glitch existed in ADV as well.

Well, if there's at least precedent for Nintendo to change in-battle mechanics between different countries' versions of the same game, then I'd wager that the glitch will be fixed in 2 months. However, at that point, Smogon should expressly come out and say that it is attempting to emulate the US version of the game. It has already done this implicitly by using the "fixed" choiced Pursuit.

Pursuit sure seems to cause a lot of problems, eh? :) Maybe we should get rid of it? ;) *Starmie and Celebi hurrah*

 

[Steinhauser]

How do you know what the developers intended?

Surely you don't mean to say the acid rain has even the slightest possibility of being intentional? Beyond the fact that it is completely nonsensical, unprecedented and undocumented, the fact that the damage is done (in the case of the four-weather glitch) by the Pokémon's own abilities, rather than the weather itself, smacks of mussed code.

I agree with Tucker's opinion on the value of common sense. Philosphically, implementation of the acid rain is absolutely sound, and I agree that in an ideal and flawless simulator it should be implemented. But realistically, spending time with meticulous testing and coding of what cannot possibly be anything other than a glitch is completely unnecessary and a waste of resources.

Is dogmatic adherence to the cartridge's (sometimes faulty) code really more important than an enjoyable battling experience within a competetive and efficient community?

 

[Griffin]

<snip>
Talk to Obi about what changes he would make if we were allowed to "Fix things".

Here are the facts:

1. We are simulating cartridge play.
2. This glitch exists on the cartridge.
3. In order to truly simulate the cartridge, we must use the glitch.

Please tell me where I made my mistake.

Not a mistake. I know what's being done at this moment, but I disagree with what that is. I think we should follow how the cartridge was intended to be (a perfected version of it, so to speak) rather than how it actually turned out.

I don't think there's a lot of point in arguing which of the two should be done. I think the former, but the vast majority of people disagrees with me.

 

[Naxte]

I know for a fact they fixed at least 1 glitch:

If you used Pursuit on a Pokemon while you had a choice Band in Diamond (Japan) as they switched out on your first turn, you could choose a new move to be locked into. Apparently, this glitch existed in ADV as well.

EDIT:


Talk to Obi about what changes he would make if we were allowed to "Fix things".

Here are the facts:

1. We are simulating cartridge play.
2. This glitch exists on the cartridge.
3. In order to truly simulate the cartridge, we must use the glitch.

Please tell me where I made my mistake.

As things currently stand, Fact 1, since I assume accurately is implied there, since otherwise this really wouldn't be a discussion. We institute sleep clause, when that is impossible in cartridge play. Yes, PBR has it, but not the cartridges. To simulate the cartridges, like in Wi-Fi play, we'd have to put it on the honor system. Yes, there are plenty of people who wouldn't play honorably and there would be problems as a result, but from what I'm getting, none of that really matters before being honorable to the true form of the game, which overrides all other concerns.

Yes, doing what would essentially be getting rid of Sleep Clause would create all kinds of chaos, but implementing this glitch would also do so in it's own way, what with low-leveld members of the Cleffa family becoming much more potent, and all Pokemon having their abilities being revealed.

So that leaves us with pretty much two options; if we care about the metagame itself, then we should keep things as they are, and ignore the glitch. If we feel that being true to the latest version of the games trumps even concerns about the meta-game, however, then we should put Sleep Clause on the honor system, despite the problems that would cause.

 

[RBG]

As things currently stand, Fact 1, since I assume accurately is implied there, since otherwise this really wouldn't be a discussion. We institute sleep clause, when that is impossible in cartridge play. Yes, PBR has it, but not the cartridges. To simulate the cartridges, like in Wi-Fi play, we'd have to put it on the honor system. Yes, there are plenty of people who wouldn't play honorably and there would be problems as a result, but from what I'm getting, none of that really matters before being honorable to the true form of the game, which overrides all other concerns.

Yes, doing what would essentially be getting rid of Sleep Clause would create all kinds of chaos, but implementing this glitch would also do so in it's own way, what with low-leveld members of the Cleffa family becoming much more potent, and all Pokemon having their abilities being revealed.

So that leaves us with pretty much two options; if we care about the metagame itself, then we should keep things as they are, and ignore the glitch. If we feel that being true to the latest version of the games trumps even concerns about the meta-game, however, then we should put Sleep Clause on the honor system, despite the problems that would cause.

And that is why people like Obi think that Sleep clause should just be, if you put two of their pokemon to sleep, then you should automatically lose.

 

[Naxte]

And that is why people like Obi think that Sleep clause should just be, if you put two of their pokemon to sleep, then you should automatically lose.

A default loose, similar to the default-loose caused by Self-KO clause, also doesn't have its basis in game mechanics and is straying from cartridge play. To be simulating the games, it has to be purely on the honor system. The only other real reason to keep it around would be because of the brokeness of a meta-game that doesn't have an actual Sleep Clause. However, if that is a valid concern, then the glitch shouldn't be implemented for the same reasons. Granted, Acid Rain-glitch shouldn't be as broken as a Sleep Clause-less meta-game, but it definitely wouldn't be good for it.

Going at this another route, despite precedence for its existence, Sleep Clause itself, no matter how its implemented, is technically altering game-mechanics of the cartridge games, which Smogon seeks to simulate. Thus, due to Sleep Clause, we have precedence for altering the game mechanics of the cartridge games if need be. And since this Acid Rain is clearly a glitch, and the implementation of which most likely wouldn't benefit the meta-game in the duration of time that it takes Nintendo to correct it, I believe this should be a rare situation where we should invoke that precedent and just ignore the Acid Rain-glitch, for the better of the meta-game and the continued testing of suspects and the like in that meta-game.

Either that, or, doing somethign that doesn't alter game-mechanics, but with the same result, which would be following the example of the Torment thread, and banning Pursuit (which clearly has a significant role in triggering the glitch) until Nintendo gets to fixing it. This is less favorable, since Pursuit also has a significant, non-broken role in the meta-game, but if it's a comrpomise that both sides are willing to come to, then I'm willing to go with it.