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np: UU - A New Beginning

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While the graph is certainly aesthetically pleasing, I think it doesn't consider the entire metagame. Shaymin and Raikou aren't just walled by Bulky Steels, Regice does a good job against Shaymin, and Chansey does a good job against both of them.

Steels certainly won't be unbeatable if Staraptor and Gallade get banned because pokemon like Hariyama, Toxicroak and Hitmonlee step in to take their place.

Slowbro and Milotic would worry me, but pokemon like Roserade can KO them, and as far as electric types go, a RestTalk Calm Ampharos can check them.

I'm excited to see how the seperate suspect tests play out, because I believe they will reveal new metagame threats that never had a chance to really get out there. I'm definitely agreeing with Imran right now though, that Abomasnow is the only thing I'm really leaning towards BL on.
 
The current plan is that after the suspect votes are looked over and read, the suspects that have the highest number of votes will be removed from the UU ladder all at the same time. There is no way we will try to open a second ladder and have to suspect ladders at the same time. If anyone has any better more reasonable suggestions, please PM me, because if there is a way better than the one I mentioned, I would like to hear it.

caelum edit: Forward it to me too kindly ^____^
 
Quick question to Umbarsc; How are you gonna get a SpD drop on Registeel exactly? I clearly recall that thing having Clear Body.
Anyway, I like the chart by LR, but in the end, it won't be that massive. There's plenty of checks to most of those things that would lose their checks, according to you, I mean, I'd like to see a Milotic challenge, say, Exeggutor.
 
umbarsc said:
Registeel can avoid the 2HKO from Earth Power, but remember, it can't do shit in return unless it's some weird-ass Amnesia set. If it's a RestTalker, Shaymin can Seed Flare until she gets a SpD drop then go for the 2HKO. Shaymin's 100/100/100 bulk can withstand weak Seismic Tosses and Ice Punches, and she can Rest off the damage.
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Registeel has Clear Body, so it will never get a Special Defense drop.
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I also agree with the statement that Bulky Waters can't beat Staraptor; nothing can besides prediction or/and Rotom. And even if Rotom is supposed to be countering Staraptor, you are essentially sacrificing it to do so.

This is the reason that I think Staraptor should be banned, and only Staraptor. Everything else lies in a delicate balance.

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And in regards to RB Golbat, I don't see why we couldn't continue the UU ladder as though it were the suspect ladder. There would be a months (or so) period after the nominations in which everyone would play and keep the nominated in mind, then everyone who passed the voting requirements would have a final individual vote on each.

Though this plays similarly to the Bold voting of January, I think the formality and individual focus on each Pokemon would do good. Plus the UU tier as of nUU has literally been just testing, so I see no problem in turning this into its literal form. Whether all the suspects are tested at the same time or not for this, they won't all be tested individually for the currently ideal form of banning, so this is at least a step up.

That's an extreme case, but regardless I hope the judges can clearly distinguish between votes made out of genuine concern for the metagame and votes that are most likely from pure selfishness.
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yes, agreed.
 
I agree for the most part with Imran. I'm still noticing a certain amount of balance in this metagame, with the possible exception of Hail teams. In fact, I think Abomasnow is the only suspect I'm going to nominate before the deadline tomorrow. There's the fact that I don't have the time to give a detailed and reasoned argument for the other Pokemon, and also the fact that I simply don't feel as strongly about their potential brokenness.

Whatever happens with the suspect testing though, I hope that the votes will be heavily scrutinized, and that the standard for reasoning is set fairly high. Even just now on Shoddy I had some guy complaining to me saying that NFEs should be banned, for the reason that they're annoying. This was in response to my Chansey walling his 'SubRoost + Toxic' Moltres by switching in and out. I don't think I need to explain the level of hypocrisy involved there.

That's an extreme case, but regardless I hope the judges can clearly distinguish between votes made out of genuine concern for the metagame and votes that are most likely from pure selfishness.
 
I already posted this in the vote thread, but I'm going to post it here too.

But I think snover should stay UU. Really, putting snover in BL sounds like we're running away from it instead of trying to think of way to counter it. But of course people are going to use sealeo as mini walrein in UU, but I do not think it will break UU. Snover is pretty much the only thing keep hail teams alive in UU, and I think the UU is much better with hail in it.
 
HeYsUp said:
Well you forgot to draw a huge collective arrow Pointing at Abomasnow!!


In all seriousness...i think i have to disagree with this. Pokemon such as these cant be put into general catagories.

Shaymin will ALWAYS destroy Steelix, and also can 1v1 Registeel most of the time(barring Paraflinch hax). But Shaymin can be stopped by Random pokemon, such as Staraptor and Crobat.

Raikou on the other Hand, cant be stopped by anything minus those two Steel types.

So i think Raikou and Misdreavus(to an a better degree than Shaymin) belong in the same catagory, as both are stopped by the Steels(again, to an extent because of HP fighting...)

On the other side, Gallade and Staraptor are alike only because they both know Close Combat, and are Physical Attackers. Gallade is stopped(barring prediction) by Crobat, and BulkyStaraptor as well as Slowbro. But Gallade tears through Milotic and the Steels. Staraptor is also stopped by Slowbro, but cant really do much to Steelix. Staraptor loses to random pokemon as well, while also getting hurt badly by SR.

There is another group i would add as well. Magmortar and Blaziken among other pokemon function soley(almost) as Wall Breakers, but they are easily beaten by faster sweepers.

I just think its difficult to place pokemon in a "Group" for UU, especially the suspects such as those who are quite unique to the tier.
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I agree, this doesn't necessarily group things all to well. However, Slowbro unfortunately cannot stop Gallade :(. It takes too much damage after a Swords Dance.

Raikou is very dangerous... however, it doesn't have a recovery move, which somewhat hinders it. But it still is dangerous.

Part of the reason I like the UU enviroment better than the OU enviroment is because team effects are executed to better success. TR, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, and Hail are all viable in the UU enviroment. My general hope, is that it can stay that way.
 
Legacy Raider said:
And guys please, it's a generalisation! I've posted that at least 3 times in my original post, and twice since then. All pokemon are dissimilar, so there will always be some disrepetencies when grouping them. Yes, Staraptor is hurt by SR while Gallade is not, but in order to see the tier as a whole, and really the purpose of my argument, please look past these! Uggh.
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I understand the idea behind the chart, and its a good chart at that. But i really dont think you can generalize pokemon into 4 catagories, especially suspects. The Stealth Rock was just a side point, nothing more. While the point of the chart, i think, is to point out the upset in Balance when the Pokemon are banned, but i dont think it works like a food chain.

Bulky Waters, yes you can sort of sort them being that they are all, well, Bulky Water-types. The difference is though, Slowbro "counters"(being used loosely) Gallade and Staraptor, while Milotic does not.

Physical Attackers is not possible to generalize either. Maybe you could put Medicham, Gallade and Feraligatr into a group of somesort that is walled by Slowbro, and beat Milotic. But i dont think its right to put a CB Flying/Normal pokemon in the same group as a Swords Dance Sweeper(generalizing).

The same goes with Registeel and Steelix too. Steelix counters Raikou only, while it gets completely annihilated by any other special attacker, therefor is a bad special attacker counter which is the opposite of what your chart says. Registeel should be in that box alone, especially since Steelix can fairly effectively counter Staraptor.

To summarize:
Bulky Waters dont counter Physical Attackers, Slowbro does.

Steel-types dont counter special attackers, Registeel does(with the exception of Fires).

Staraptor and Gallade are played completely differently, Gallade is played like other pokemon such as SD Feraligatr, Blaziken or Drapion. While Staraptor is played like pokemon such as......well nothing really, but more like other Choicers(Azumaril, Typhlosion etc.).

Scuba Stevee said:
I already posted this in the vote thread, but I'm going to post it here too.

But I think snover should stay UU. Really, putting snover in BL sounds like we're running away from it instead of trying to think of way to counter it. But of course people are going to use sealeo as mini walrein in UU, but I do not think it will break UU. Snover is pretty much the only thing keep hail teams alive in UU, and I think the UU is much better with hail in it.
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Snover will allow Froslass and other things to unbalance the metagame, even without Walrein. Walrein isnt even broken, its ONLY because of endless hail.
Relictivity said:
I agree, this doesn't necessarily group things all to well. However, Slowbro unfortunately cannot stop Gallade :(. It takes too much damage after a Swords Dance.
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Slowbro is actually the best switch in to Gallade, i dont really know what your talking about.
 
Since I can't post in the nomination topic:

Banning (or nominating) Snover would be a complete theory ban, which I believe we are trying to (and if not, SHOULD) avoid. He should not be considered for this round of testing because, simply put, as he was not used and as such has not been proven to be gamebreaking. Maybe next time if he's actually used and poses a threat, but this whole theory-ban crap has got to stop. If he becomes suspect, I'm going to be having some words with the moderators ^_^

Some of the nominations in that topic are whack. I hope the officials can pick them out (it shouldn't be hard).
 
Veedrock, I agree, we don't have a good proof for Snover.

Perhaps we could try an Abomanasnowless enviroment to see if he is broken or not. What do you think?
 
I've never seen a Snover on the Shoddy UU ladder. So, I can't place a vote on banning it based on theorymoning. I've found Walrein in the Hail hard to deal with, but not just because of Auto-Hail, but because Abomasnow doesn't just die right off the bat. It Sub-Seeds, Protects or uses Blizzard/Wood Hammer. Then, it'll either take a Pokemon down, or set up a possible revenge kill.

Snover's Auto-Hail needs testing. Right now, I think it'll be like Hippopotas. Where there'll be arguments about "Snover sucks, so it's a 6vs5." But even Hippopotas can maybe equip a Focus Sash and setup Stealth Rock or something. Though, there are more Pokemon in the Hail that are more abundant and deadlier than in the Sandstorm.

The reason I like playing UU is diversity. That's why I wouldn't like banning too many Pokemon to BL. Once, they go BL they may be overshadowed by their "more superior" OU counterparts. I understand some have to go though.
 
Veedrock said:
Since I can't post in the nomination topic:

Banning (or nominating) Snover would be a complete theory ban, which I believe we are trying to (and if not, SHOULD) avoid. He should not be considered for this round of testing because, simply put, as he was not used and as such has not been proven to be gamebreaking. Maybe next time if he's actually used and poses a threat, but this whole theory-ban crap has got to stop. If he becomes suspect, I'm going to be having some words with the moderators ^_^

Some of the nominations in that topic are whack. I hope the officials can pick them out (it shouldn't be hard).
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The comments about banning snover are claims for banning auto-hail rather than specifically targetting snover. The fact is that auto-hail has been tested, and that has nothing to do with which pokemon is actually using snow warning. People do have experience that allows them to comment on whether auto-hail is broken or not.

Once set up, hail is arguably a lot more injurious than stealth rocks (6.25% every turn, over the whole bout, on every non-ice poke, adds up to a LOT of damage), and for a none-weather team rain dance/sunny day are way crappier moves than rapid spin (which itself blows). Even worse, it does not even require a turn of set up.

Sure people say, "yeah, but you're sacking the poke slot for really crappy stats just to get hail."

That never stopped people from using Smeargle or Aerodactyle (and yes, given people often use Aero's speed just to get up SR, and that Snover does not even need speed to set up hail, I think this is a fair comparison).\


@Snover-Hippopatas Comparison-- Compared to hail, sand is a walk in the park. Even common teams contain stuff like Steelix, Registeel, Regirock, Claydol, etc. etc. so the hail damage is extremely mitigated. Most importantly, Blizzard has ridiculous power and coverage, and everything and its mom learns it. Rock's little s.DEF boost doesn't amount to much when one considers that ground/steel types, with immunity to sand, can smash them for super effective damage and are extremely common. I wouldn't sack a pokemon slot for sand, but I would for hail.

And let's face it-- it's not sacking a spot. Even near-dead "fodder" can make or break games in pokemon.
 
Caelum said:
This thread really shouldn't become whether or not Legacy Raider's chart is entirely accurate.
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My appologies, again. I have the utmost respect for LR, i just disagree with the chart :P.

Veedrock said:
Since I can't post in the nomination topic:

Banning (or nominating) Snover would be a complete theory ban, which I believe we are trying to (and if not, SHOULD) avoid. He should not be considered for this round of testing because, simply put, as he was not used and as such has not been proven to be gamebreaking. Maybe next time if he's actually used and poses a threat, but this whole theory-ban crap has got to stop. If he becomes suspect, I'm going to be having some words with the moderators ^_^

Some of the nominations in that topic are whack. I hope the officials can pick them out (it shouldn't be hard).
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This is actually false. Firstly i have used Snover for a couple battles on my "hail-test" team, Walrein and Froslass(among other things) are still broken.

Secondly, as the above poster stated: Its not nominating "Snover" per say, its nominating Auto-Permanent Hail.

Hail has definately been tested, and as RB put in the OP(thank you for this btw), You should specify why Snover is not a suspect, and many people just cant do it, because it does have the ability triggering Auto-Hail which is the general reason Abomasnow has to leave(other then people such as EUM who proved rather well how they think only Abomasnow should be banned).

So this is not a theory-mon nomination.
 
Regardless of testing of Snover or not, I believe instances in which you OHKO Abomasnow to start off the match will give you a fair idea of what it will be like to play against Snover. The core of the Hail team still exists (Walrien, Froslass, Glaceon) and will continue to abuse Hail until you change the weather. If your required to change weather to deal with hail, without any other benegfit to your team, then that seems centralizing and Auto-Hail should be banned.
 
HeYsUp said:
My appologies, again. I have the utmost respect for LR, i just disagree with the chart :P.




This is actually false. Firstly i have used Snover for a couple battles on my "hail-test" team, Walrein and Froslass(among other things) are still broken.

Secondly, as the above poster stated: Its not nominating "Snover" per say, its nominating Auto-Permanent Hail.

Hail has definately been tested, and as RB put in the OP(thank you for this btw), You should specify why Snover is not a suspect, and many people just cant do it, because it does have the ability triggering Auto-Hail which is the general reason Abomasnow has to leave(other then people such as EUM who proved rather well how they think only Abomasnow should be banned).

So this is not a theory-mon nomination.
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I would agree except for one thing - Abomanasnow can act like a Walerin, in other words, it can stall. With lesser defenses, we might find Snover less difficult to deal with. If a hail team has one less staller, that's one less problem for us.

However, I do agree, if it requires you to use a weather move because hail still stalls, it should be banned. Just like you should never be required to use priority moves or rapid spin.
 
The point is that [amongst the anti-hail camp] a lot of players are not saying "Abomasnow is broken," but that auto-hail is broken.

Let's face it, there's a reason that Abomasnow was not used in OU in the first place, and that's because its stats are very mediocre-- especially compared to Tyranitar/Hippowdon. UU now has pokemon who, base-stat-wise, are not much worse than OU pokemon. Abomasnow's abilities outside hail are, to a fair degree, besides the point.

I guess "keep abomasnow/snover but ban other ice types" could be alright if we decided to ban Froslass, Walrein, Glaceon, Articuno, Regice, Jynx, Lapras, Glalie, Seelio, Pillowswine and Delibird.
 
I guess none of us truly know what the problem is : ).

I hope we don't have to ban that many pokemon though...
If only we could prove Abomansnow the problem and not Snover.

Hail would also still have to deal with the problem that Hippotas is faster...
Lots of things to think about overnight, I guess!
 
I get the reasoning of banning auto-hail but I still think uu still needs some way to access hail. Using weather+theweatherrock combo works well with all the other weather effects except hail. rain dance and sunny day doesn't hurt pokemon so it can work. Sandstorm has three types that are not affected so it is more versatile. But hail has only ice and for that combo to be really effective is to have a team full of ice types which is stupid to do. So banning auto-hail from uu means not even having hail in uu which i personally think is a bad move. I don't get when people say hail is not effective in OU but is too effective in UU. What, it should just be in BL???

I really don't agree with putting snover in bl, aboma yes, but snover no. Your banning for it's ability; I have always thought that pokemon are but in their tiers based on a combination of thier usage, stats, movepool, and ability, not just one thing.

ChouToshio said:
I guess "keep abomasnow/snover but ban other ice types" could be alright if we decided to ban Froslass, Walrein, Glaceon, Articuno, Regice, Jynx, Lapras, Glalie, Seelio, Pillowswine and Delibird.
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I don't mean to offend you, but that is about the most stupidest thing I had ever heard:\
 
Scuba, that's exactly his point, that banning hail teams is idiotic. Also, Wob was banned for it's ability, so don't even bring that point up.
 
While I do agree that hail makes certain pokemon go beyond UU limits, what we should be doing is banning the culprit. That culprit is Abomasnow or what he makes broken. Snover is nowhere in this equation.

What evidence is there to suggest that Snover is "broken" though? Sure, people don't like auto-hail, I get that. Maybe Snover is broken. Who knows. But banning Snover is completely theory based by associating it with it's evolution. There is zero evidence to show that it would be "broken" if he was still available. So yes, it is a theory ban if it happens.

Are you saying that Snow Warning Metapod, Sunkern, or hell, Ditto, would be banned (hypothetically speaking)?
 
Thorns said:
Scuba, that's exactly his point, that banning hail teams is idiotic. Also, Wob was banned for it's ability, so don't even bring that point up.
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Actually, Wobbafett was banned due to a mix of his abillity and encore. You shouldn't be using him for an example.

A better example would be wynaut. Would you like it if wynauts ran around everywhere like headless chickens? No! So, would you like it if an unbeatable combonation ran around? No, of corse not.

If wynaut is uber, then snover is bl.
 
The thing that separates Abomasnow from Snover is that Abomasnow could handle hits and you could switch it in and out once something like Rain Dance or Sunny Day comes, Abomasnow comes and counters it while having the chance to handle the hits.

I like the Hail, but Snover stays in UU. Simply because it is easier to take down and plays the same as Hippopotas, I remember earlier in the test people were running Sash Hippopotas which is ridicolous. Snover is easy to handle and it doesn't hit as hard as Abomasnow and it's a waste of slot. Snover is fine in UU, it's basically a "suicidal weather starter"

If Hippodown is in OU, why isn't Hippopotas in OU?
 
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