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np: UU - A New Beginning

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I have to agree it is a bit unclear as to exactly what it is we're supposed to look for. I suppose people are supposed to create opinions based on noted improvements in the metagame.

That being said, what constitues improvement and how one notices/defines it is a bit uncertain. Also as MagicMaster87 pointed out, even if the metagame worsens that does not exactly mean that the suspects aren't bl. It could mean that there's more pokes in the pool who ought to be banned. Of course "ought to" is totally subjective too.

In the end, I guess it comes to down to a popularity contest-- which I'd be alright with personally. My guess is that the suspects will be banned, as the sentiment about them are strong, and I doubt a period without them will do much to change public opinion. People will just be bitching about how registeel, regirock and froslass ought to be banned next-- which again isn't necessarily a bad thing.
 
Steinhauser said:
Looks like Snover didn't make the cut. Now we can actually give it some accurate testing. My prediction is that people won't even bother with hail teams now that they're so nerfed.

Shaymin and Spiritomb are safe until the next round, too. I wonder how people will fare against Spiritomb now that the three biggest sweepers are (at least temporarily) gone.
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I'm wondering the same thing :/

I'm glad Shaymin DIDN'T get booted, just because Shaymin and Raikou leaving at the same time would strengthen Milotic and Slowbro so much. I can see those two getting out of hand so easily.

I almost wrote up a lengthy "Regigigas is BL" argument, but I'm glad I didn't now (even though these changes make him better as well, removing two CC users from the environment).
 
Looks like Froslass and Crobat are gone too. This will, without a doubt, make my life much easier. Swellow is once again the fastest thing in the metagame (Electrode doesn't count since it is usually Rain+Boom), not to mention the hardest-hitting Normal/Flying type. Froslass leads no longer harry with mindgames and make spinning so essential.

However, making life easier for other pokes isn't what suspect testing is about. I'm beginning to scratch my head about the effectiveness of the process.

How exactly will I, and others, decide if the suspects are broken or not? It seems like testing a suspect-absent metagame will better show if a metagame WITHOUT those six threats is broken or not, rather than whether each specific threat is broken or not.

Sure, there are monthly statistics and diversity ratings, but UU is already more diverse than anything and I don't think those hard numbers are going to tell us much. The driving force behind the bannings is still going to be the gut reactions of the populace, and whether "this metagame is more enjoyable than the previous metagame".
 
I believe the assumption is that we already know how the metagame with the suspects goes, so at the end of the test period we can compare the two.
 
Aww, Crobat is gone now too? It wasn't listed at first... And I was about to make a team with it too. Guess I'll just continue using it on my OU team then. :(

Syberia said:
I believe the assumption is that we already know how the metagame with the suspects goes, so at the end of the test period we can compare the two.
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But that doesn't tell us anything about the Suspects themselves. All it'll be showing us is what Pokemon and teams will fill in the gaps left by their removal, and whether the resulting metagame will end up being more or less balanced than what we had before. It won't tell us whether Gallade alone is broken, for example, because the changes could just as easily have been caused by the removal of one or several of the other candidates.

The only way I can see around this problem is to do similar to what's happening on the Standard ladder: remove all but one of the Suspects at a time, and test them alone. We've already had the testing of whether the metagame is imbalanced with all of them together, so it'll just be working backwards. However, the higher-ups already said that there will not be a UU-Suspect ladder, so there'll be the problem of existing scores enabling people to vote who otherwise shouldn't, like there was with Skymin...
 
MagicMaster87 said:
However, the higher-ups already said that there will not be a UU-Suspect ladder, so there'll be the problem of existing scores enabling people to vote who otherwise shouldn't, like there was with Skymin...
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Except, if you had read the current Policy Review thread, you would have noticed that when we restarted the Ladder with the 6 pokemon banned, that, unless a better option comes up, all the ratings will be rest simply because we do not want what happened with the Shaymin-s Test
 
Wow I was really pleased to find that Crobat and Froslass both were declared suspect. I'm excited to get the suspects removed and start testing out the "new" state of the metagame.

Magic, also it's not like this is the only round of testing. If something is voted not BL after the initial round (Raikou for example) it could be potentially declared suspect again a few months later when another series of tests are run. I think this process will get everything done a lot quicker.
 
TUskate said:
Magic, also it's not like this is the only round of testing. If something is voted not BL after the initial round (Raikou for example) it could be potentially declared suspect again a few months later when another series of tests are run. I think this process will get everything done a lot quicker.
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I know that there will be multiple months of testing. My fear isn't that something will be voted UU when it should be BL; I fear that the currently stated process (which I do realize was stated in PR that it's up for discussion) will wind up with Suspects being voted BL when they would've otherwise been voted UU. Removing all of the Suspects at the same time won't give us any information as to how each individual Suspect affects the metagame, merely how all of them together had affected it. This will make it difficult, if not impossible, to determine each Suspect's individual "broken-ness", which is what we're supposed to be voting on. Unless there's a drastic change that's clearly caused by a single Suspect's removal, I suspect people will merely use the same reasoning that they used to vote it Suspect. And if something's been voted BL, it won't get the chance to be retested, at least for a long time.
 
Oh for god's sake. Why not just ban ICE BODY Walrein, and keep Abomasnow/Snover?

Walrein can still be Thick Fat, and function in UU, and then there wont be a need for banning HAIL auto-weather Pokemon. God...
 
Oh for god's sake. Why not just ban ICE BODY Walrein, and keep Abomasnow/Snover?

Walrein can still be Thick Fat, and function in UU, and then there wont be a need for banning HAIL auto-weather Pokemon. God...
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That would be altering Game Mechanics; either a Pokemon stays or it goes. There's no changing of a Pokemon's abilities, moves, ect, to keep it from being banned (or in this case, to prevent the banning of another Pokemon) as a result. Thus, either something is broken and is banned or is not and is left.

Snow Warning makes Walrein a beast. Without it though, since Hail can only last up to 8 turns, it becomes much easier to deal with. Thus, Abomasnow being tested and possibly Snover later on, since perma-hail makes Pokemon like Walrein much tougher to deal with.
 
I've explained before why this is completely different than the Shaymin-S test and not resetting the ratings would almost definitely not result in the same problem that the Shaymin-S test had. But whatever.
 
I agree with Jabba about this, that wasn't the problem with Skymin (it was shitty votes and the click system). However, I still think a ratings reset is a good idea for the reasons stated here.
 
The difference between this and the Skymin test is pretty much that people were going to play Standard regardless of whether or not Skymin was there because it's the primary metagame most people play. Since the new UU tier was created, most people play it for the purpose of testing out new pokes and strategies.

Doesn't matter one way or the other, though.
 
I guess now is the time to run an Snover team, to see if it's broken or not. Maybe I'll try it out so to experience for myself. If I test it out, I'll have a much better idea of what it does to the UU metagame.
 
The biggest difference is that people had the ability to vote without even having to play a metagame with skymin in it. as long as their rating was high enough at the start of test they could just coast into the requirements. in the uu test, everyone has at least played a metagame with the now 6 suspects, so i'm sure those people being coasting into a vote from this point still have valid opinions on the pokemon being considered. Also I was never a fan of taking a pokemon out of a metagame in order to determine whether it's uber or not. I think it skews votes just a bit. When you take a pokemon out for a month or so, you're likely to have a few people who forget why the pokemon was that bad in the first place.
 
Wait, Raikou is a suspect? How? I don't think I've ever seen him kill more than one 'mon, and he sure as heck doesn't fit into the defensive or support categories for BL.
 
There were multiple well reasoned bold votes nominating him. If you have an issue with how they were counted then talk to caelum..

Remember suspect != ban.
 
I don't have a problem with it - I'm just surprised, since from my personal experience he really isn't that hot. Then again, I accept that my personal experience will differ from that of most people, since I'm both comparatively new to competitive play, and I play weird stuff.

Speaking of being new - especially to this forum - where can I find said votes and the reasonings for them?
 
JabbaTheGriffin said:
The biggest difference is that people had the ability to vote without even having to play a metagame with skymin in it. as long as their rating was high enough at the start of test they could just coast into the requirements. in the uu test, everyone has at least played a metagame with the now 6 suspects, so i'm sure those people being coasting into a vote from this point still have valid opinions on the pokemon being considered. Also I was never a fan of taking a pokemon out of a metagame in order to determine whether it's uber or not. I think it skews votes just a bit. When you take a pokemon out for a month or so, you're likely to have a few people who forget why the pokemon was that bad in the first place.
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This *would* be true, but the current ladder still has rankings from old UU in it, meaning that your ranking is dependant both on how you did in the old UU and in the new UU.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
This *would* be true, but the current ladder still has rankings from old UU in it, meaning that your ranking is dependant both on how you did in the old UU and in the new UU.
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The bold voting for determining Suspects was open to everyone, though; rankings weren't part of it at all. According to what's been posted in PR, the rankings for UU are supposed to be reset soon, and the Suspects will be removed, and the next step of voting will be for people who meet the requirements.
 
Wols said:
I don't have a problem with it - I'm just surprised, since from my personal experience he really isn't that hot. Then again, I accept that my personal experience will differ from that of most people, since I'm both comparatively new to competitive play, and I play weird stuff.
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I actually agree with you completely, and will likely not vote to ban it. Raikou has never ever been a problem for any of my teams, and the only "arcane" thing I ran was Scarf Drapion once (check AW tomorrow). It's not _that_ bad, it's just good...
 
On a similar note, I'm fairly confident Froslass will retain its place in UU if Abomasnow gets booted. It doesn't seem to do anything particularly annoying without Snow Cloak, and frankly I can live with my opponent wasting a turn to set up 5-turn Hail, or wasting a turn and an item to set up 8-turn Hail.
 
Relictivity said:
I guess now is the time to run an Snover team, to see if it's broken or not. Maybe I'll try it out so to experience for myself. If I test it out, I'll have a much better idea of what it does to the UU metagame.
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Without Froslass, hail is going to be a lot less effective, regardless of whether it's Snover or Abomasnow who's starting the weather.

MagicMaster87 said:
The bold voting for determining Suspects was open to everyone, though; rankings weren't part of it at all. According to what's been posted in PR, the rankings for UU are supposed to be reset soon, and the Suspects will be removed, and the next step of voting will be for people who meet the requirements.
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To be fair, old UU has not been on the ladder for at least a month, and I highly doubt anyone who got their ranking up from old UU alone could maintain the deviation required to vote without playing again in the new metagame.
 
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