• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

np: UU - A New Beginning

Status
Not open for further replies.
I agree. Hopefully, once Abomanasnow and Frosslass are removed from the ladder, hail won't be so "BL". But I don't know. I guess I just have to wait till it is implemented. Then I can decide whether I made the right choices.

It's so hard to wait though ;).
 
Wols said:
On a similar note, I'm fairly confident Froslass will retain its place in UU if Abomasnow gets booted. It doesn't seem to do anything particularly annoying without Snow Cloak, and frankly I can live with my opponent wasting a turn to set up 5-turn Hail, or wasting a turn and an item to set up 8-turn Hail.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Froslass was UU before the merge with BL and no one was clamoring for her to move up. Snow warning is the real problem.
 
To be fair, it was pretty much a guaranteed 2 layers of Spikes unless you were using Crobat (even then, it plays constant mind games with you with Ice Beam) or something scarfed as your lead, not quite as bad as D-E because it can't dual screen but guaranteed Spikes was still annoying as hell.
 
Froslass was broken in old-UU. Near the end, old-UU was broken-- but no one complained because we knew we were doing the "BL Release" soon.

Old-UU was far from balanced and the defensive-support pokemon dominated the tier. You'll notice the discrepancy in that while previously "standard sweepers" have dropped harshly, old-UU's bog-standard defensive-support pokemon (Clefable, Steelix, Claydol, Froslass etc) are still easily in the top of UU. Goes to show how out-classed sweepers were in the old game, and froslass and rotom were free to keep spikes up for nearly the whole freaking game.

Even with the sweepers being greatly improved, Froslass' mechanics-- 110 speed, ghost typing, spikes, makes it incredibly hard to prevent it from setting up in a metagame with no ttar/STAB bullet punch users. Heh, if anything maybe experience will lend people incentive to try froslass out in OU.

One thing is for sure, hail is going to have a hard time running snover and no froslass. In all honesty, with all the viable taunt/phaze/encore users there are in UU, I do not see walrein as a particularly big threat. Glaceon is a bitch but, it should be managable-- especially if one does not have to deal with 2-3 layers of spikes at the same time. Between Glaceon and Walrein, combined with a number of potential Ice/Water types to abuse Blizzards, the team could still be viable. Obviously, it will be a lot more challenging now.


While I prefer offensive-teams, I think I just might have to try an all-out stall one this round, see if the remaining sweepers can handle a team like Nidoqueen/Registeel/Milotic/Spiritomb/Roserade/Chansey, or whatever. While there are some definite offensive powerhouses, I'll be curious to see if they can keep the game in balance. I mean, Magmortar could rip that hypothetical team to shreds if you predicted well-- but then Magmortar could rip apart almost any OU stall team if you predicted well so it's not like that's easily done.
 
"guaranteed" unless you packed choice scarf anything or crobat or a spinner... I don't see what's so fundamentally broken about "guaranteed spikes" even if it actually was...

Chou said:
Rotom/Steelix/Milotic/Spiritomb/Roserade/Chansey
Click to expand...

This would be a pretty bad stall team for a variety of reasons, mostly due to having most of your pokemon not do anything (and rotom sucks).
 
hence why I tagged on "or whatever" at the end of that sentance. xD I'm not going to think of, and post a good balanced team on the spot. :P

Well I figured you'd just want to get up SR and Spikes up. Honestly, I'd rather not take time setting up t-spikes in a metagame with so many grounded poison types. :/
 
Is Froslass really that big of a problem? I didn't seem to have too much trouble with it, either on or off a Hail team. Then again, Ambipom was my lead for most of my testing...
 
Relictivity said:
Erm... Chris is me, it's not just the Spikes. It's the Spikes, Taunt, and Destiny Bond KO put together. And the Snow Veil hax.
Click to expand...

I love fighting Taunters. It's easy to tell who they are and just use attacks.

Besides that, spiking and taunting and destiny bonding all in one fight takes longer than Froslass's average life expectancy. It doesn't live through much, so it usually has to choose - and just one or two of those things tends to be a non-issue, for me at least.
 
The one I'll miss most is...Abomasnow, oddly enough. I know Hail teams are big jerks, and I know he has to go - but without him, Rain Dance Ludicolo will see even more play.
And I hate that guy.
 
Just wondering, let's say a pokemon like Roserade is determined to be UU, then it gains OU status again. Will it be banned from UU play like Aerodactyl was? What if it falls out of OU again, does it become BL?
 
If a Pokemon is banned from UU, it remains BL even if it goes OU and comes back. Furthermore, if Roserade is not banned in UU, but becomes temporarily OU, it will be banned from UU until it stops being OU. Once it falls out of OU, it will be UU again, not BL.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
If a Pokemon is banned from UU, it remains BL even if it goes OU and comes back. Furthermore, if Roserade is not banned in UU, but becomes temporarily OU, it will be banned from UU until it stops being OU. Once it falls out of OU, it will be UU again, not BL.
Click to expand...
If something is proven to function just fine in a lower tier, that seems kind of arbitrary to ban it just because for some reason it gets used more in a higher tier. I know that's "how the system works" in its current form, but perhaps it's not the best way things could be done. I mean, regardless of how much pokemon x is used in standard battles, its power and viability in a lower tier has not changed one bit.

Before the merge, there was always a "non-competitive" buffer tier in between OU and UU, so when the tier lists came out, things were just shifted between OU and BL according to the stats, and really had no bearing on anything at all. If something that's low OU now were to drop out during the next tier update (let's say, Alakazam), it would be tested in UU. If it proved itself to not be too powerful, it'd stay UU until the next set of tier changes, at which time let's assume it becomes OU again. Suddenly it gets banned when tests just showed it's fine for UU, simply because of how it performs in a completely different tier. If our goal is, as has been said before, to have the most viable pokemon in a given tier, a system in which you could use a perfectly viable pokemon in UU for a certain amount of time and then find it gone even though it's not too powerful seems a bit counterproductive. A little bit of overlap might be good.

Since OU teams can incorporate things from any tier below, I've always just thought of the tier as a guideline to say what's good in the current metagame, anyways. There's no need to make it a restrictive list of any sort.
 
I can't say I haven't thought that myself Syb, and what you say does make sense. However, Common Sense and Logic don't always overlap.

Trouble is Syb, if you are not going to ban pokes from UU based on OU, than the only guideline you have is the "power level" of UU-- which is completely arbitrary and could be set anywhere. If this was not true, we would not have gone through the trouble of releasing all the BL pokemon. We decided to totally shift the "balance point" of power in UU because we knew there was no meaningful reason for being where it was except for imitating 3rd gen.

In other words, if you are basing UU off of power alone, there is no point where that power "should be." Why not raise it more? Let's let down Rotom-A, Suicune, Celebi, why not Salamence and Tyranitar?

You see the point? UU exists to be a separate tier, one with pokemon who do not see significant use in standard play. It's general "power" is defined by long standing members of that category. If we started allowing pokemon based on power alone, that would remove the definition of what UU is.

I agree that in some ways banning things like Tentacruel from UU does seem "arbitrary," especially by common sense, but in order to have clear and usable rules/organization it is inevitable that there will be some weird cases like this.

Edit: Then again, I'd be all for doing all of this by collective common sense. It would avoid so much bullshit xD
 
Erazor said:
Can I have a good replacement for CBRaptor for my team? I'm gonna miss it so much....
Click to expand...

Give Tauros a spin. He's not exactly bad y'know. He might lack immunity to Ground, but doesn't face weaknesses to Rock, Ice and Lightning. He also has Intimidate and while Staraptor could wave Close Combat+Brave Bird around, Tauros can viably use Earthquake/Stone Edge/Pursuit and top it off with Frustration. Pretty dang powerful stuff.
 
Lou Cypher said:
Give Tauros a spin. He's not exactly bad y'know. He might lack immunity to Ground, but doesn't face weaknesses to Rock, Ice and Lightning. He also has Intimidate and while Staraptor could wave Close Combat+Brave Bird around, Tauros can viably use Earthquake/Stone Edge/Pursuit and top it off with Frustration. Pretty dang powerful stuff.
Click to expand...

This is definitely good advice. I've been using CBTauros over Staraptor from the beginning, and his better speed and lack of SR weak are big plusses in his favor. He's been a ridiculous sweeper for me.
 
Base 100 attack compared to base 120, and Earthquake instead of Close Combat does make a pretty big difference in terms of damage output, though. The lack of U-Turn also really prevents it from doing Staraptor's job as effectively.
 
I don't think U-Turn made Staraptor BL. Staraptor is unable to U-turn effectively due to SR weakness and lack of recovery on that set. But you are right, lower attack stat and lack of STAB Brave Bird does hurt him a little, as well as less ridiculous coverage without Close Combat.
 
U-Turn has always been a terrific move, and I'd have to disagree and say that Starapter's U-Turn was pretty impressive. Especially the CB version. It would leave a spiritomb switch-in in stitches (~40%).

Speaking of U-Turn users, overall they kind of suck in UU. >> I am seriously missing Scizor. Give me any Rock/Steel type with an attack score over 85 + U-Turn and I'd have that Ambipom by the balls.
 
Lou Cypher said:
Give Tauros a spin. He's not exactly bad y'know. He might lack immunity to Ground, but doesn't face weaknesses to Rock, Ice and Lightning. He also has Intimidate and while Staraptor could wave Close Combat+Brave Bird around, Tauros can viably use Earthquake/Stone Edge/Pursuit and top it off with Frustration. Pretty dang powerful stuff.
Click to expand...

Heh, and I was looking for a replacement for Scarf Staraptor.

Also, will there be a separate suspect ladder for testing? Or will the ratings be reset and the UU ladder serve as the suspect ladder?
 
Personally, I think it's unfortunate that due to the method of testing suspects right now, probably everyone will end up being banned. I am sure there is some combination of testing that would make people actually vote against the banning of certain suspects.
Personally, I hope the people allowed to vote aren't the biased kind, because I feel none of the suspects really affected me too badly, save Abomasnow (and even that only to a certain extent) and possibly Raikou (my own fault there). The rest didn't really cause too much trouble, although when Staraptor showed up, all hell broke loose, and Crobat and Froslass were just plain annoying. Most of all, I feel strongly against banning Gallade, but that's probably my team rips it to shreds. Basically, the bottom line here is: I don't feel any of the suspects really are too overpowering, although my team and semi-decent prediction skills may have helped with that.
Even more importantly, banning these suspects will lead to the overpowering of other suspects, as there are no guarantees to a balanced metagame. Even if one or two of the suspects are not banned, the metagame will still be held in check. But then again, that, like everything else in this post, is just my opinion. Anyone else feel similarly?
 
Wyzra said:
I don't think U-Turn made Staraptor BL. Staraptor is unable to U-turn effectively due to SR weakness and lack of recovery on that set. But you are right, lower attack stat and lack of STAB Brave Bird does hurt him a little, as well as less ridiculous coverage without Close Combat.
Click to expand...

-2 immunities and keeps Gallade in check.
-Intimidate which is something CB or Scarf version have a nice time coming in
-Good coverage
-Destroys common counters
-Overall just a lethal physical sweeper, it could be used early in game and it could be used late game as your sweeper.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top