np: UU - A New Beginning

[Erazor]

While I do agree that hail makes certain pokemon go beyond UU limits, what we should be doing is banning the culprit. That culprit is Abomasnow or what he makes broken. Snover is nowhere in this equation.

What evidence is there to suggest that Snover is "broken" though? Sure, people don't like auto-hail, I get that. Maybe Snover is broken. Who knows. But banning Snover is completely theory based by associating it with it's evolution. There is zero evidence to show that it would be "broken" if he was still available. So yes, it is a theory ban if it happens.

Are you saying that Snow Warning Metapod, Sunkern, or hell, Ditto, would be banned (hypothetically speaking)?

Banning the culprit. That means banning Abomasnow or Snover. Veedrock, I know that banning Snover would be based on theory, but we already have an idea of a metagame with auto hail, and that metagame seems
broken. Snover summons auto hail, so that would be the grounds for his banning, assuming that we agree that it is Auto Hail that's broken, not Abomasnow himself. Or StallRein for that matter.

 

[Imran]

If Hippodown is in OU, why isn't Hippopotas in OU?

This is an obviously incorrect statement that I would like to address. Hippowdon is OU based on usage alone, if it dropped to BL it would be tested along with with everything else. If Hippowdon was then declared to be BL, I doubt it would have been due to auto-sandstorm as compared to it's huge bulk, meaning that Hippopotas wouldn't nessecarily warrent banning too, because it is not the auto-sandstorm that we are deeming broken.

Personally I follow the line that most other people we have been following. What we must decide is whether we belive the strength of Ambomasnow himself and the perma-snow is broken, or whether it is the permasnow itself that is broken. If we deem that it is the permasnow itself that is broken, i.e. you could run a team of 5 Pokemon with Hail and still win, then banning snover would be acceptable. (This is slightly flawed as Snover can at least do basic things like Protect stalling, and possibly even Sub seeding!)

Can I point out that there is actually no need for all of this theorymon at all! The suspects will be removed from the ladder, and once Abomasnow is gone, people will be forced to either use Snover, or not use Hail at all, so we will be getting direct experience of it. So theres no point saying "it will be a theory ban" because it won't once we ban the suspects for the second testing period.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I don't get why people are so determined to get Snover banned now. I understand all the arguements that people are giving as to why Snover should be banned, and most of them are valid, but is it really so bad that people can't wait another month or so for the 2nd round of nominations? Really?

If it truly is broken, it'll be banned. I don't think there is any reason to worry. I want Snover banned as of now, but I'm up for testing it without Abomasnow, just incase I'm not right.

Also, has anybody noticed that the people arguing for Abomasnow to be banned, and not Walrein, are using the same arguements as those wanting Walrein banned, but not Abomasnow, except that they're changed to favour their opinion? It's quite silly to be honest. I think we should all try and stay open-minded about this whole process.

 

[thecrazylazyguy]

it would be cool to have some valid sandstream in this metagame snover and hippotas just dont have base stats to last much time in battle

 

[TUskate]

It's not like we can't test Snover out right now. If you have a hail team, honestly just change your Abomasnow to Snover, see how it works. I have a strong feeling that

1. Even if Snover dies right off the bat it doesn't matter to your team and you will still win the majority of battles against non-weather teams.

2. Snover will end up contributing more then you realize. It can absolutely get some of the annoying stalling the Abomasnow does done. Not as well, that's for sure, but it still would be able to contribute something. Making the 6 v 5 conversation not totally true.

These are just my thoughts after testing, but especially in those matches were I defeated the opposing Abomasnow early, I still was at a distinct disadvantage when placed against the rest of my team. Btw, weather was not included on my team on purpose to really gauge the power of Hail-based teams.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

This is an obviously incorrect statement that I would like to address. Hippowdon is OU based on usage alone, if it dropped to BL it would be tested along with with everything else. If Hippowdon was then declared to be BL, I doubt it would have been due to auto-sandstorm as compared to it's huge bulk, meaning that Hippopotas wouldn't nessecarily warrent banning too, because it is not the auto-sandstorm that we are deeming broken.

Personally I follow the line that most other people we have been following. What we must decide is whether we belive the strength of Ambomasnow himself and the perma-snow is broken, or whether it is the permasnow itself that is broken. If we deem that it is the permasnow itself that is broken, i.e. you could run a team of 5 Pokemon with Hail and still win, then banning snover would be acceptable. (This is slightly flawed as Snover can at least do basic things like Protect stalling, and possibly even Sub seeding!)

Can I point out that there is actually no need for all of this theorymon at all! The suspects will be removed from the ladder, and once Abomasnow is gone, people will be forced to either use Snover, or not use Hail at all, so we will be getting direct experience of it. So theres no point saying "it will be a theory ban" because it won't once we ban the suspects for the second testing period.

I meant that question hypothetically. People are suggesting on banning Snover if Abomasnow gets BL status with it. It's fair to say we give Abomasnow a chance in BL (if he gets in) and let's see if Snover gets to BL with the amount of usage it gets once Abomasnow is gone. "Auto-Weather" is broken to some, but it's actually the pokemon that makes it broken. That goes back to my question

Why isn't Hippopotas OU when Hippodown is OU?

Simply because the other one is a much effective user than the other one. If banning Abomasnow and taking Snover with it, why not do the same with Hippopotas? Simply because Hippodown is a much effective user by lengths and it gets more usage. People want to bring Snover with Abomasnow simply because they think "auto-weather" is broken. Imo, keep Snover in UU it will be a pathetic slot anyways if anyone decides to use it on a hail team.

 

[Syberia]

Sand has nothing like Walrein that goes along with it, not a 100% accurate Blizzard, so the support characteristics of the two are completely dissimilar.

 

[mien]

It's not like we can't test Snover out right now. If you have a hail team, honestly just change your Abomasnow to Snover, see how it works. I have a strong feeling that

1. Even if Snover dies right off the bat it doesn't matter to your team and you will still win the majority of battles against non-weather teams.

2. Snover will end up contributing more then you realize. It can absolutely get some of the annoying stalling the Abomasnow does done. Not as well, that's for sure, but it still would be able to contribute something. Making the 6 v 5 conversation not totally true.

These are just my thoughts after testing, but especially in those matches were I defeated the opposing Abomasnow early, I still was at a distinct disadvantage when placed against the rest of my team. Btw, weather was not included on my team on purpose to really gauge the power of Hail-based teams.

Everyone always seems to 'win' with their hailteams, i can say i have much expierence in playing hail and it's not they don't give an superior advantage over non-weather teams

Of course most people who just start playing UU are not used to face things like Wallrein and Abomasnow and don't know how to deal with it. If you make an alt it's quite common you will battle that sort of people

Believe me once your facing more expierenced players you'll see that there also disadvantages in using hail which will be exploited by them. Really i have made it to the top some time ago and i didn't felt like i had any advantage of non-weather teams.

If you aren't convinced here are some ways to deal with Hail
- Pack a taunter, easily cripples both Wallrein and Abomasnow
- Clefable with Encore
- Shaymin with HP fire(most depend on Aboma to deal with it)
- Layer teams: simply bring down all forms of layers,use Sleeptalktomb and a 70+Spe Base Phazer, once succesfull Aboma and Wallrein die very fast
- Sweeper teams: As long as you keep attacking with powerfull attacks Aboma/wallrein won't have the time to set up.

These are just some examples there are other ways but i can't think of any right now.

Rather then saying they are 'broken' try to deal with them get used to them instead of saying Abomasnow/Snover should be banned all the time.

Snover can't do shet, it can't switch into anything and Wallrein isn't enough to make up for the slot.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Abomasnow's big thing is that it's able to freely switch into the STABs of the major weather abusers of each weather type. It resists both Water and Grass, which not only makes it top-notch against the dangerous Ludicolo, but also gives it an edge when switching into Chlorophyll users (especially if you get in on the Solarbeam charge turn and rape them with STAB Blizzard). Snover's lower defenses and much lower Speed means that it's a lot harder for people to use it to counter weather with Snover than Abomasnow.

I remember when I ran Hail Stall that Abomasnow absolutely rapes most weather teams due to the fact that only Sunny Day-boosted fire attacks can beat it and even then it's kinda iffy.

 

[mien]

Abomasnow's big thing is that it's able to freely switch into the STABs of the major weather abusers of each weather type. It resists both Water and Grass, which not only makes it top-notch against the dangerous Ludicolo, but also gives it an edge when switching into Chlorophyll users (especially if you get in on the Solarbeam charge turn and rape them with STAB Blizzard). Snover's lower defenses and much lower Speed means that it's a lot harder for people to use it to counter weather with Snover than Abomasnow.

I remember when I ran Hail Stall that Abomasnow absolutely rapes most weather teams due to the fact that only Sunny Day-boosted fire attacks can beat it and even then it's kinda iffy.

Lol all Chlorophyll users have at least HP fire. So you are taking a big risk switching those in. Yes you 'can' easily switch into some rain abusers like Ludicolo but not Kabutops who is the most powerfull rain abuser.

Besides i remember many people complaining about Rain dominating in the UU metagame in the past. This might as well happen again with Abomasnow gone.

 

[reachzero]

It'd be pretty hard for Rain Dance teams to dominate UU the way they used to even without Abomasnow, interestingly enough because there are so many more Water types in UU now. Most Swift Swimmers (though not Ludiculo) will have a hard time breaking through Milotic or Slowbro. Ludiculo might be a little too hard to stop without using Chansey, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

 

[Heysup]

I get the reasoning of banning auto-hail but I still think uu still needs some way to access hail. Using weather+theweatherrock combo works well with all the other weather effects except hail. rain dance and sunny day doesn't hurt pokemon so it can work. Sandstorm has three types that are not affected so it is more versatile. But hail has only ice and for that combo to be really effective is to have a team full of ice types which is stupid to do. So banning auto-hail from uu means not even having hail in uu which i personally think is a bad move. I don't get when people say hail is not effective in OU but is too effective in UU. What, it should just be in BL???

I really don't agree with putting snover in bl, aboma yes, but snover no. Your banning for it's ability; I have always thought that pokemon are but in their tiers based on a combination of thier usage, stats, movepool, and ability, not just one thing.


I don't mean to offend you, but that is about the most stupidest thing I had ever heard:\

El, Oh, El.

Firstly, UU can access Hail by using the move Hail. 5 Turn hail would be legitimate, being unkillable for 5 turns is pretty good dont you think?

Secondly, i cant beleive people are using the reasoning "But hail isnt good in OU(Due to Tyranitar/Hippo everywhere), so where can we use hail if its banned!?!?!?". The point is, if something is broken in a tier, it must be banned regardless if there is no tier to effectively play it. This applies to so many pokemon(for example, Beedrill or any of the "old UU/NU" pokemon).

And lastly, the the bolded part......wow. If you happened to read the OP in the nomination forums(which you didnt i guess :/) it says:

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16 MODIFIED!

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Those are the criteria for BL. Not its usage. Its based on: if ANYTHING, being any one or more move or any ability(or combinations of them), makes a pokemon fit these definition, they are BL.

And you missed Chou's Point :(......

While I do agree that hail makes certain pokemon go beyond UU limits, what we should be doing is banning the culprit. That culprit is Abomasnow or what he makes broken. Snover is nowhere in this equation.

What evidence is there to suggest that Snover is "broken" though? Sure, people don't like auto-hail, I get that. Maybe Snover is broken. Who knows. But banning Snover is completely theory based by associating it with it's evolution. There is zero evidence to show that it would be "broken" if he was still available. So yes, it is a theory ban if it happens.

Are you saying that Snow Warning Metapod, Sunkern, or hell, Ditto, would be banned (hypothetically speaking)?

Some people have tested it other than me im sure.

But banning a pokemon for the ability Snow Warning, means Snover leaves too, its common sense really.

Theory banning would be me saying, "lets ban (for example) Swellow, because with (for example) Steelix and Registeel gone, it will be broken!". This is what we are doing: "Auto-Hail has proven to be broken, therefor all pokemon with this ability should be banned".

Abomasnow's big thing is that it's able to freely switch into the STABs of the major weather abusers of each weather type. It resists both Water and Grass, which not only makes it top-notch against the dangerous Ludicolo, but also gives it an edge when switching into Chlorophyll users (especially if you get in on the Solarbeam charge turn and rape them with STAB Blizzard). Snover's lower defenses and much lower Speed means that it's a lot harder for people to use it to counter weather with Snover than Abomasnow.

I remember when I ran Hail Stall that Abomasnow absolutely rapes most weather teams due to the fact that only Sunny Day-boosted fire attacks can beat it and even then it's kinda iffy.

The arguement isnt that Snover is just as good as Abomasnow, it's that they are both broken for their abilties.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

If you aren't convinced here are some ways to deal with Hail
- Pack a taunter, easily cripples both Wallrein and Abomasnow
- Clefable with Encore
- Shaymin with HP fire(most depend on Aboma to deal with it)
- Layer teams: simply bring down all forms of layers,use Sleeptalktomb and a 70+Spe Base Phazer, once succesfull Aboma and Wallrein die very fast
- Sweeper teams: As long as you keep attacking with powerfull attacks Aboma/wallrein won't have the time to set up.

The only Taunters who outspeed Abomasnow and don't take that much from Blizzard/Wood Hammer are Hypno, and maybe Houndoom and Drapion. The latter two probably won't have recovery either. (Rest/Sleep Talk/Taunt/Crunch?)

Clefable with Encore does fine until your opponent catches on and Focus Punches rather than Subs on the switch. So you basically need to play it very carefully or use another check.

Shaymin with HP Fire: Who uses Abomasnow to check it? Timid LO Shaymin does 38.01% - 44.86% with Seed Flare, meaning it's a 2HKO with an SDef Drop or SR down.

Layer teams: Most Hail teams use layers as well, so Toxic Spikes can be absorbed by their Drapion/Nidoqueen. And then Abomasnow can switch into things like Omastar, Claydol, Cloyster, some Nidoqueen, some Roserade, etc. while they Spike.

Sweeper teams: Example? Hail teams have four more open spots for counters.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hence, theorybanned. We should be avoiding this attitude and not take this approach.

[/drypost]

That is a ridiculously broad statement to make, and you can't make it as if it were a total truth. "Should" and "should not" statements are completely value-based.

 

[Relictivity]

El, Oh, El.

Firstly, UU can access Hail by using the move Hail. 5 Turn hail would be legitimate, being unkillable for 5 turns is pretty good dont you think?
But nowhere near as good as rain dance and sunny day would be.

Secondly, i cant beleive people are using the reasoning "But hail isnt good in OU(Due to Tyranitar/Hippo everywhere), so where can we use hail if its banned!?!?!?". The point is, if something is broken in a tier, it must be banned regardless if there is no tier to effectively play it. This applies to so many pokemon(for example, Beedrill or any of the "old UU/NU" pokemon).

And lastly, the the bolded part......wow. If you happened to read the OP in the nomination forums(which you didnt i guess :/) it says:



Those are the criteria for BL. Not its usage. Its based on: if ANYTHING, being any one or more move or any ability(or combinations of them), makes a pokemon fit these definition, they are BL. Okay then, Hippotas needs to be banned. I'm pretty sure you'd agree with me when I say that Regirock, Cradily, and Relicanth are beasts under sandstorm. Or we can test out Snover to see if it's truly broken.

And you missed Chou's Point :(......
Chou's point (I think) was about that we don't want to ban numerous pokemon. So what should we ban so that hail is less BL, but viable, in UU?


Some people have tested it other than me im sure.
However, we all want a chance to test it too : )

But banning a pokemon for the ability Snow Warning, means Snover leaves too, its common sense really. And banning a pokemon for Sand Stream means that it to should go.

Theory banning would be me saying, "lets ban (for example) Swellow, because with (for example) Steelix and Registeel gone, it will be broken!". This is what we are doing: "Auto-Hail has proven to be broken, therefor all pokemon with this ability should be banned". Yes, but we should wait and see what new counters show up before this happens, and then proceed.





The arguement isnt that Snover is just as good as Abomasnow, it's that they are both broken for their abilties.

Note that only one pokemon has been banned because of the effects of another pokemon - Garchomp. However, Garchomp had numerous little things that added up to a big thing, not just Sand Veil. Sand Veil was the icing on the cake.

Similarly, we should not ban Abomanasnow because of Walerin.

One thing, I hope this does not become OU-lite : )

 

[Chou Toshio]

My point was that Auto-Hail is broken. And no, we don't have to have a place where it dominates.

We are not banning Abomasnow because of walrein.

Walrein is just a tiny part of the equation. You do realize Encore, Roar, Whirlwind, and Taunt are far more common in UU than in OU right (check X-Act's stats if you don't believe me)? In part this is because of walrein I'm sure, but in bigger part is because there are just more pokemon who do these moves better in UU than OU. Walrein is not the whole issue.

hail is the issue as we were saying.

@Hippopatas Ban-- no, it doesn't because ground/steel/rock pokemon (especially ground/steel) are on practically all teams, not just sand. Moreover, Ground/Steel types have the advantage over rock types (who are the only ones who get the boost). Also, sand does not create anything as ridiculous as 100% accurate blizzards (who everyone and their mom can access).

But, putting all that aside, I wouldn't mind all that much if we banned Hippopatas anyway. The original view of UU was as a auto-weather-free tier, and that would be far from a bad thing.

 

[Relictivity]

My point was that Auto-Hail is broken. And no, we don't have to have a place where it dominates.

We are not banning Abomasnow because of walrein. You say your banning it for auto-hail. But I think, in reality, the ban has to do with how it supports other pokemon.

Walrein is just a tiny part of the equation. You do realize Encore, Roar, Whirlwind, and Taunt are far more common in UU than in OU right (check X-Act's stats if you don't believe me)? I believe you. :) In part this is because of walrein I'm sure, but in bigger part is because there are just more pokemon who do these moves better in UU than OU. Walrein is not the whole issue. Exactly, it isn't. My question is, what can we do to limit the power of hail teams, without destroying the concept entirely?

hail is the issue as we were saying.

@Hippopatas Ban-- no, it doesn't because ground/steel/rock pokemon (especially ground/steel) are on practically all teams, not just sand. Moreover, Ground/Steel types have the advantage over rock types (who are the only ones who get the boost). Also, sand does not create anything as ridiculous as 100% accurate blizzards (who everyone and their mom can access).

But, putting all that aside, I wouldn't mind all that much if we banned Hippopatas anyway. The original view of UU was as a auto-weather-free tier, and that would be far from a bad thing. I'm totally fine with this. It would be more balanced than with one-auto weatherer. If this is the way it will go, I'm fine.

So, I guess the two major questions are...
1) Should auto-weather be banned?
2) If not, what can be done to reduce the potency of hail offense and defense?

 

[Heysup]

Note that only one pokemon has been banned because of the effects of another pokemon - Garchomp. However, Garchomp had numerous little things that added up to a big thing, not just Sand Veil. Sand Veil was the icing on the cake.

Similarly, we should not ban Abomanasnow because of Walerin.

One thing, I hope this does not become OU-lite : )

That doesnt make any sense at all. It does not even relate to anything.

People, ffs, STOP COMPARING BANNING AN AUTO-HAIL POKEMON TO ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE NOTHING RESEMBLES IT. Sigh.

My point was that Auto-Hail is broken. And no, we don't have to have a place where it dominates.

We are not banning Abomasnow because of walrein.

Walrein is just a tiny part of the equation. You do realize Encore, Roar, Whirlwind, and Taunt are far more common in UU than in OU right (check X-Act's stats if you don't believe me)? In part this is because of walrein I'm sure, but in bigger part is because there are just more pokemon who do these moves better in UU than OU. Walrein is not the whole issue.

hail is the issue as we were saying.

@Hippopatas Ban-- no, it doesn't because ground/steel/rock pokemon (especially ground/steel) are on practically all teams, not just sand. Moreover, Ground/Steel types have the advantage over rock types (who are the only ones who get the boost). Also, sand does not create anything as ridiculous as 100% accurate blizzards (who everyone and their mom can access).

Exactly, thank you for understanding.

So, I guess the two major questions are...
1) Should auto-weather be banned?
2) If not, what can be done to reduce the potency of hail offense and defense?

Well, Snover and Abomasnow can be banned.

Or Froslass,Glaceon and all Ice Body Pokemon can be banned.

I prefer the former, dont you? Hail clearly isnt very effective only lasting 5 turns, but its BROKEN now.

 

[Relictivity]

I think you are misunderstanding me slightly HeYsUp. I'm pretty sure you understand that all or no auto-weatherer's have to be banned. However, I don't think you understand the second part.

Let's say that the majority of UU users decided to not ban auto-hail. Obviously, the metagame would still be imbalanced. Is there anything we can do to make hail less powerful? No, I'm not talking about a blanket ban on certain abilities. I'm talking about removing one or two pokemon who look to be the strongest options.

I don't wish to make hail inviable for UU. At least not untill all auto-weatherers go. I don't wish to make hail in a position where it will never be used again. That is why I say Snover stays. Even if we have to ban one other pokemon. (NOTE: I am not saying blanket ban)

Oh, and the comparison, it was just for the sake of banning a pokemon based on a weather-related ability caused by another pokemon. Sorry, if you dislike it, I was just saying that you can't ban things like Snover when it is really the other pokemon that cause the problems. That is unless we make a change in policy (that's fine too).

 

[MagicMaster87]

Oh, and the comparison, it was just for the sake of banning a pokemon based on a weather-related ability caused by another pokemon. Sorry, if you dislike it, I was just saying that you can't ban things like Snover when it is really the other pokemon that cause the problems. That is unless we make a change in policy (that's fine too).

There's a difference between the relationship of Garchomp/Hippowdon/Tyranitar and Abomasnow/Snover. Ignoring the possibility of Yache Berry, Garchomp is completely reliant upon one of the other two to do his thing (sweeping while avoiding damage that should have killed), and he plays completely differently from the other two; Snover, on the other hand, does exactly the same thing that Abomasnow does: set up Hail simply by existing. Neither Abomasnow nor Snover need to do anything else (including surviving) unless your opponent is running Sunny Day/Rain Dance/Sandstorm. Now if you were comparing Walrein instead of Snover, then the comparison would make a bit more sense.

Note that I am not saying that I am of the belief that Snover (and to be honest, even Abomasnow) needs to be banned. Personally, I think if Walrein were to be banned, that would be enough to even out the playing field a bit (Glalie cannot set up 101HP Substitutes, so it'll run out of both Protect and Sub at the same time as Seismic Toss, and it cannot switch into Fire attacks as easily as Walrein can).

 

[Relictivity]

Magic, I think you misunderstand what I was saying... because I was saying precisely the same thing you were : ).

About the comparison... It was for Snover/Hail Abuser or Abomanasnow/Hail Abuser . I don't know what Snover/Abomanasnow comparison I could use to prove a point. I suppose Hippowdon/Hippotas, but that isn't what the comparison was about.

I just wonder what we could remove to even the playing field...

 

[Farewell]

Snover should stay in. Lets face it, it cannot do much, gets 4-5hkoed by Stealth Rock alone, the same cannot be said for Hippo-Jr whom can heal off Stealth Rocks damage with its Leftovers alone, and has a reasonable defensive typing, and only moderately below average defense and HP, and packs Slack Off.

Additionally, there are so many more Pokemon that can abuse Sandstorm compared to Hail in UU:

Sand Veil Cacturne, Gligar (NFE), Sandslash, and ALL Rock types.

I personally think Cradily has more "Stallability" than Walrein due to Recover, and although it lacks Roar, it can still use Toxic, as well as Stockpile to outstall many opponents. Additionally, not being able to be phazed itself can trully mean that Cradily is a Special wall to watch out for.

 

[Heysup]

Sigh....

I think you are misunderstanding me slightly HeYsUp. I'm pretty sure you understand that all or no auto-weatherer's have to be banned. However, I don't think you understand the second part.

Let's say that the majority of UU users decided to not ban auto-hail. Obviously, the metagame would still be imbalanced. Is there anything we can do to make hail less powerful? No, I'm not talking about a blanket ban on certain abilities. I'm talking about removing one or two pokemon who look to be the strongest options.

I don't wish to make hail inviable for UU. At least not untill all auto-weatherers go. I don't wish to make hail in a position where it will never be used again. That is why I say Snover stays. Even if we have to ban one other pokemon. (NOTE: I am not saying blanket ban)

Oh, and the comparison, it was just for the sake of banning a pokemon based on a weather-related ability caused by another pokemon. Sorry, if you dislike it, I was just saying that you can't ban things like Snover when it is really the other pokemon that cause the problems. That is unless we make a change in policy (that's fine too).

Actually, its you who does not understand. Clearly.

Sandstorm, is NOT broken. There is nothing that adds a an 100% accurate Blizzard, and as well, there is an abundance of Steel/Ground/Rock pokemon while Ice Pokemon are not as common aside from hail teams. So your random senseless argument saying "All Auto-weathers or none" makes absolutely no sense. You have to stop comparing the two, as they are unrelated.

If the only way to make the UU metagame balanced is to make hail not viable then that is what will be done. Tiers arent based on your "feelings" for Hail teams. Its based on fairness.

The Garchomp example is probably the dumbest thing i have ever read. Firstly you have it backwards. Garchomp=/=Snover in any case. Garchomp=Walrein for this case, BUT Garchomp was NOT banned because of its ability, it was banned for everything else. So all in all, your example is firstly rediculous and unrelated, as well as just absolutely wrong.

 

[Relictivity]

Sigh....



Actually, its you who does not understand. Clearly.

Sandstorm, is NOT broken. There is nothing that adds a an 100% accurate Blizzard, and as well, there is an abundance of Steel/Ground/Rock pokemon while Ice Pokemon are not as common aside from hail teams. The 100% accurate Blizzard? I don't think that is much of an improvement... they are missing out on the special defense boost from Rocks in Sandstrom. So your random senseless argument saying "All Auto-weathers or none" makes absolutely no sense. You have to stop comparing the two, as they are unrelated. No, not "All Auto-Weatherers or none", Snover and Hippotas, or none. And I don't see where this does not make sense.

If the only way to make the UU metagame balanced is to make hail not viable then that is what will be done. Tiers arent based on your "feelings" for Hail teams. Its based on fairness. Of course they aren't based on my feelings, but the question is, what does hail teams balance. Because there is a chance that whatever they happen to be balancing at the moment, that we do not know about, will get much, much better.

The Garchomp example is probably the dumbest thing i have ever read. Firstly you have it backwards. Garchomp=/=Snover in any case. Garchomp=Walrein for this case, BUT Garchomp was NOT banned because of its ability, it was banned for everything else. So all in all, your example is firstly rediculous and unrelated, as well as just absolutely wrong. You misunderstanded that I misunderstanded that... well, anyways, I was saying Waler = Garchomp and Snover = Tyaranitar.

What banned Garchomp was really a bunch of small things put together. SD, Sand Veil, Outrage, Yache Berry, Immunity to electric (and therefore switches in easily).

Now let us see what Walerin has. It has Protect, Substitute, Icy Bocy, Blizzard (if needed), Leftovers, and infinitely long

 

[Steinhauser]

Looks like Snover didn't make the cut. Now we can actually give it some accurate testing. My prediction is that people won't even bother with hail teams now that they're so nerfed.

Shaymin and Spiritomb are safe until the next round, too. I wonder how people will fare against Spiritomb now that the three biggest sweepers are (at least temporarily) gone.