np: UU - A New Beginning

[Naxte]

Turn one: Crobat used Taunt. Regirock used Stone Edge.
Turn two: Crobat used U-turn. Player switches in Shaymin. Regirock used Stone Edge.

(Beaten!)

That really isn't dealing with Crobat. You've hit it once with Stone Edge, and then done very little damage to Shaymin (for example) who is threatening to KO you if you don't switch. Unless you have a second SR user, which people rarely do, then you have to rely on Regirock to get back in to set up SR's. I would not hesitate to Taunt Regirock in any situation I came up against him in, knowing that I could always switch in something next turn to threaten him giving me (the crobat user) the upper hand in the battle.

I also haven't even mentioned you'd be relying on a move with 80% to deal with Crobat. That's no guarantee.

Or:
Turn 1: Crobat Taunts, Regirock Stone Edges.
Turn 2: Crobat U-turns, gets predicted, and Shaymin gets hit with Ice Punch.
Turn 3: Shaymin Seed Falres (which also has a significant chance of missing), Regirock should hang on (if it's holding Leftovers; if it's Choiced, then Regi's screwed), and KO's with Ice Punch.

That's the problem with Crobat right there and is why I feel it doesn't need to be moved up to BL; yes, it has U-turn and Taunt, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything other than making sure you won't get stat-upped on the switch-in, or hit with a status move. It doesn't stop you from getting predicted and hit with an attack. The situation with Regirock isn't the best example, due to Specsmin dealing with it regardless, but the points still there.

Plus, again, this is just Regirock. There's also Rhydon, which works similarly. Then there's Electrode, which can T-Wave it, crippling it, then go wherever from there. Then there are the Scarfers, which, since they're viable sets regardless, and aren't sets that have to be forced to beat Bat, there shouldn't really be any problems with using them.

Then there's again how Crobat works. All it does is prevent is switch-ins from being statused with Taunt. It doesn't support them much beyond that though, or guarantee them a safe switch-in, since the switch ins can still be predicted and hit with an appropriate attack, which doesn't even require a Scarfer, just a bulky attacker. Since Crobat doesn't actually make it's teammates broken, nor does Taunt give it an irrecoverable, undeniable, or unworkaroundable advantage due to this fact, I don't really think it needs to be moved up to BL.

 

[MagicMaster87]

No, it does not have to run Max Speed as far as I know. However, you will have to watch out because Crobat may decide to U-Turn, killing Espeon, fearing a powerful, incoming STAB Psychic. And Choice Scarf won't stop it. However, there should be a way around that...

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here. Are you saying that Espeon doesn't run max Speed when Scarf'd, or that Crobat doesn't? I do know that Scarf Crobat doesn't need max Speed to outrun Scarf Espeon, what I want to know is how much Speed Scarf Espeon DOES run (or if there's anything else faster than Espeon that rapes Crobat, what Speed it runs).

Also, I did some calcs with Adamant 252 Crobat vs 4 HP/0 DEF Espeon; U-Turn (and even X-Scizzor) has 0 chance of OHKO-ing Espeon, doing only 86% max (98.5% for X-Scizzor). Brave Bird actually has a decent chance of OHKO-ing though, dealing 93.75% min.

 

[Relictivity]

Or:
Turn 1: Crobat Taunts, Regirock Stone Edges.
Turn 2: Crobat U-turns, gets predicted, and Shaymin gets hit with Ice Punch.
Turn 3: Shaymin Seed Falres (which also has a significant chance of missing), Regirock should hang on (if it's not choiced; if it is, then Regi's screwed), and KO's with Ice Punch.

That's the problem with Crobat right there and is why I feel it doesn't need to be moved up to BL; yes, it has U-turn and Taunt, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything other than making sure you won't get stat-upped on the switch-in, or hit with a status move. It doesn't stop you from getting predicted and hit with an attack.

Plus, again, this is just Regirock. There's also Rhydon, which works similarly. Then there's Electrode, which can T-Wave it, crippling it, then go wherever from there. Then there are the Scarfers, which, since they're viable sets regardless, and aren't sets that have to be forced to beat Bat, there shouldn't really be any problems with using them.

Then there's again how Crobat works. All it does is prevent is switch-ins from being statused with Taunt. It doesn't support them much beyond that though, or guarantee them a safe switch-in, since the switch ins can still be predicted and hit with an appropriate attack, which doesn't even require a Scarfer, just a bulky attacker. Since Crobat doesn't actually make it's teammates broken, nor does Taunt give it an irrecoverable, undeniable, or unworkaroundable advantage due to this fact, I don't really think it needs to be moved up to BL.

Regirock needs to run almost complete Defense EVs and All HP EVs in order not to get 1HKOd by Shaymin's non-item-boosted Seed Flare. With Life Orb, it's a 46.15% chance of a KO (without Stealth Rock, full HP, SpDef EVs)

Max Attack Regirock's Ice Punch (meaning no Sp Def. EVs versus 0HP, 0 Defense Shaymin is a 70.49% chance of a 2HKO without Leftovers.

Really though, I think we are getting to specific with these counters :0.

Also, Crobat does much more than that.
-It Taunts (you mentioned)
+ allows statupers to stat up safely
+ allows no status (you mentioned)
+ prevents enemy statupers, taunters etc.
+ stops pokemon from subbing, healing themselves with exceptions of giga drain, drain punch, and the like.
-It can setup weather moves
-It can NP Pass
-It can pose as a danger to those things who dare to just sit there with STAB Brave Bird.

Taunt DOES give a team an advantage. It allows and prevents so many things. It is nearly as important as using attacking moves in this new UU that is much more stall-like (and better in my opinion) than the OU metagame.

Also, as mentioned, Crobat is bulky and can see play later in the game, so I would just U-Turn out of a Electrode, taking possible damage from Thunderbolt.

EDIT for MagicMaster: Erm, I would never run a Crobat with a scarf personally, I'm just saying it is highly unlikely Crobat would attempt to Taunt Espeon, it would just U-Turn. I would rather send in a counter to Espeon than risk the small chance it does not OHKO with Brave Bird.

 

[TUskate]

Or:
Turn 1: Crobat Taunts, Regirock Stone Edges.
Turn 2: Crobat U-turns, gets predicted, and Shaymin gets hit with Ice Punch.
Turn 3: Shaymin Seed Falres (which also has a significant chance of missing), Regirock should hang on (if it's not choiced; if it is, then Regi's screwed), and KO's with Ice Punch.

Obviously Shaymin is just an example. What if I switch in Blaziken or Milotic? Still makes Regirock situational. Even though Ice Punch would ensure the KO on Crobat so that is a "safe" move if you think a Shaymin or Roserade are coming in.

That's the problem with Crobat right there and is why I feel it doesn't need to be moved up to BL; yes, it has U-turn and Taunt, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything other than making sure you won't get stat-upped on the switch-in, or hit with a status move. It doesn't stop you from getting predicted and hit with an attack.

You're forgetting a huge point in, it doesn't allow you to set up entry hazards. The Crobat user also isn't going to make a bad switch into Regirock, something that doesn't worry a great deal about it's attacks will be coming in.

Plus, again, this is just Regirock. There's also Rhydon, which works similarly. Then there's Electrode, which can T-Wave it, crippling it, then go wherever from there. Then there are the Scarfers, which, since they're viable sets regardless, and aren't sets that have to be forced to beat Bat, there shouldn't really be any problems with using them.

In a lead Rhydon or Electrode situation no one is going to keep there Crobat in. This does prove to be a good "check" to it's lead qualities. Scarfers work to an extent, but it better hit hard, because not even a Scarf'd Eruption from Typhlosion is going to kill it.

Then there's again how Crobat works. All it does is prevent is switch-ins from being statused with Taunt. It doesn't support them much beyond that though, or guarantee them a safe switch-in, since the switch ins can still be predicted and hit with an appropriate attack, which doesn't even require a Scarfer, just a bulky attacker. Since Crobat doesn't actually make it's teammates broken, nor does Taunt give it an irrecoverable, undeniable, or unworkaroundable advantage due to this fact, I don't really think it needs to be moved up to BL.

I will definitely make an effort to try out Ryhdon before Crobat does get removed from the ladder, because that does sound like an interesting option, even though I'm sure I'll be spited by someone with a Hypnosis Crobat. However, even if Ryhdon does prove succesful I would still like to see Crobat and Froslass gone, because it would allow diversity to flourish.

Also, like Relivicity said, you are getting a little specific just to beat one pokemon.

 

[MagicMaster87]

EDIT for MagicMaster: Erm, I would never run a Crobat with a scarf personally, I'm just saying it is highly unlikely Crobat would attempt to Taunt Espeon, it would just U-Turn. I would rather send in a counter to Espeon than risk the small chance it does not OHKO with Brave Bird.

That's why I said it was a crazy idea that probably wouldn't work. :P Also, if it was indeed a Scarf Espeon vs a non-Scarf Crobat, who in their right mind would leave Crobat in, let alone Taunt it? Timid 252 Psychic is a guaranteed OHKO on 120/0 Crobat...

 

[Vrolok]

-It can NP Pass

Huh?

 

[umbarsc]

You really shouldn't have to resort to a Scarf'd lead to beat two specific leads.

Your point being...? You also shouldn't have to run Pikachu just to deal with Blastoise, so it's a good thing both statements are false!

If you think you need to run a Scarf lead just to deal with those two, you're just not being creative enough. For example, consider trying a powerful attacker + priority to deal with those two without dying or letting them send in something. Or you could predict Froslass' Taunt or Spikes and bring in a surprise Scarfer for the 2HKO. There's also an attack + status strategy that lets you beat Froslass' Destiny Bond. There are ways to deal with Froslass, you're just not being creative enough. I've already explained why I think Crobat is easy enough to manage. And there's also the fact that you can just run something naturally faster than Froslass to beat it.

And there's also the fact that Scarf leads don't "just" deal with those two, they're useful leads on their own.

 

[Erazor]

The thing is, most pokes that are faster than Froslass can't exactly do much. Assuming Froslass has a Sash, it can just use Destiny Bond first off against Raikou, so Raikou still dies the next turn.
Swellow hits it with Brave Bird, OK, but gets Ice Beamed into oblivion.
Ambipom can't touch Frosslass apart from U-Turn.
Sceptile also activates the sash, and gets Ice Beamed to hell.

Floatzel is one poke that can reliably beat it, with a fast Taunt and Crunch.

edit: Ok, Ambipom gets Pursuit. But any faster attacker should/will be met by destiny bond first off, so they die after KOing Lass next turn.

 

[kamikazeking05]

Ambipom gets pursuit, whihc is a 2hko on even non-life orb variants.

 

[cim]

(not TuSkate, I misread...) brings up a good point. There are more ways to beat a Pokémon than to have pure responses to it, in his example Regirock using Ice Punch as a "safety move" to hit Crobat's U-turn switch. That's why Rampardos isn't broken at all in UU, for example (well, that and Azumarill exists). Though this raises one of Shaymin's biggest selling points, his awesome defenses. You could use Shaymin on a stall team in a slightly Celebi-esque manner in UU to great success.

I really wish that we had a few more weeks to play with Crobat and Froslass to see if a countertrend / "creative" solution could develop for them, but oh well.

I'm hoping that the UU Test bans go one at a time, though UU has the time constraints of having one "test cycle" in 3 months. I'm thinking maybe next round it would be better to nominate at the end of the first month, then do 2 week tests per Suspect. Possibly.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

Swellow hits it with Brave Bird, OK, but gets Ice Beamed into oblivion.
Ambipom can't touch Frosslass apart from U-Turn.

Swellow's Brave Bird will most likely OHKO it w/o Toxic Orb or with Toxic Orb
Ambipom still has Payback to touch Froslass

 

[cim]

Not to mention numerous Choice Scarfers (basically anything with 58+ Speed) that screw it up unless it DBs first turn in which case you can either go 5-5 with no advantage to either of you or switch to something else faster.

As long as I'm throwing out random ideas, what if instead of uber "votes" that were numerically counted we had an uber "discussion" judged and moderated by an impartial third party? I think this would be more effective in determining BL status of something, since it would allow people to respond to bold votes with points the vote counters might have missed.

 

[Polis4rule]

With the moderated caucus, multiple suspect Poke's could be debated at the same time if needed as well. It sounds like an interesting idea, and would the "voting" requirements be kept the same, or would we want to lower them for the sake of adding more people, as we can assume that most people will bring up poor arguments?

 

[Heysup]

Or:
Turn 1: Crobat Taunts, Regirock Stone Edges.
Turn 2: Crobat U-turns, gets predicted, and Shaymin gets hit with Ice Punch.
Turn 3: Shaymin Seed Falres (which also has a significant chance of missing), Regirock should hang on (if it's holding Leftovers; if it's Choiced, then Regi's screwed), and KO's with Ice Punch.

Lol. You cant assume prediction in Theorymon. The only appropriate analysis is:
Turn 1: Crobat Taunts, Regirock stone edges
turn 2: Crobat U-turns to Shaymin, Regirock stone edges
turn 3: Shaymin Seed Flares/Whatever...Regirock is Forced out.

The only point of Crobat is to stop SR, which it does, and it can come back later and Roost off its damage.

 

[Naxte]

Soemthing that's really relevant here, which was overlooked/missed:

Edit: And I had done the calcs incorrectly for Stone Edge; I was using the wrong tab, which I had set for something else. The correct calcs are 77.15% - 91.39% without Expert Belt and 92.58% - 109.50% (53.85% chance of OHKO) with.

So, there's more than a coin flip's chance that Crobat will be OHKO'd if it Taunts. And this is with no attack investment; if you sacrifice some bulk, that chance can be made even higher.

And again, that's just one Pokemon. Electrode outspeeds and can Taunt/Thunder Wave it and there are several perfectly viable Scarfed Pokemon which can deal with it.

And if the only point in Crobat is to stop SR, then I see no need for it be moved up to BL. In OU, Aerodactyl can also do the same thing, sitting at 130 speed, and can then also set up SR itself after it Taunts, but I see no calls for it to be moved up to Uber. Simply put, getting up SR can bey key, and having the ability to get them up delayed can be annoying, but putting off the inevitably of Rocks being put onto the field by a few turns isn't enough make a Pokemon broken. And since Crobat's ability to support its team doesn't extend too far beyond Taunt, unlike Deoxys-S, I don't think a move up to BL is needed. It's a very good lead, but not a broken one.

 

[Polis4rule]

Crobat also sets up Rain Dance, which is one of the most powerful agents in UU.

 

[Stagnant]

I don't really think that Crobat is that overwhelming. He excells at his job just as Chansey excels at being a special wall and over-all supporter. I actually enjoy Crobat's presence in the metagame seeing as that he can keep in check alot of things while having weaknesses of his own. I actually use Crobat as setup fodder for some of my pokes due to Crobats predictability.

 

[Objection]

Crobat also sets up Rain Dance, which is one of the most powerful agents in UU.

Electrode sets up Rain Dance. Your point being?

 

[Steinhauser]

Lol. You cant assume prediction in Theorymon. The only appropriate analysis is:
Turn 1: Crobat Taunts, Regirock stone edges
turn 2: Crobat U-turns to Shaymin, Regirock stone edges
turn 3: Shaymin Seed Flares/Whatever...Regirock is Forced out.

The only point of Crobat is to stop SR, which it does, and it can come back later and Roost off its damage.

Why would Regirock use an 80% accuracy (not to mention 8 pp) Stone Edge on a near-dead Crobat when it has a 100% accurate Ice Punch?

And Crobat would probably Roost turn 2 as well. In fact a smart Crobat would stall out Regirock's SE pp with Roost (it will never OHKO with a crit, since Expert Belt doesn't apply), or recover up to 60% or so if it decides to Ice Punch before U-turning.

 

[Polis4rule]

Electrode sets up Rain Dance. Your point being?

However, Electrode's purpose is solely that; Crobat has the ability to scout after his lead duties are done.

Plus, Electrode is flinched from Ambipom's Fake Out.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Rain Dance isn't exactly that threatening though. Special sweepers such as Ludicolo, Gorebyss, and Omastar are walled by Chansey. Physical sweepers like Kabutops and Floatzel are walled by most bulky Waters(Slowbro, Milotic), a number of bulky Grass-types (Shaymin, Tangrowth), and Luxray. Qwilfish can do a bit more with Explosion/Poison Jab, I guess. Physical Toxicroak is beaten by Crobat, Steelix, Reflect Claydol, Nidoqueen, etc. Special Toxicroak is beaten by Chansey, Registeel, etc.

You could probably make a better case for the sun with SD Tangrowth and Typhlosion, but they are still beatable as well.

 

[Naxte]

However, Electrode's purpose is solely that; Crobat has the ability to scout after his lead duties are done.

Plus, Electrode is flinched from Ambipom's Fake Out.

And again, Aerodactyl can also set up Rain Dance for Pokemon like Kingdra, Gyarados, and Suicune in OU, Sunny Day for Heatran and Infernape, can Whirlwind and Roar, and can set up Stealth Rock, but it's not being called for to be Uber. Such traits and abilities are useful, but even in tandem, such things aren't enough to irrecoverably turn the match in one player's favor, and aren't impossible to get around and deal with, and thus why Areodactyl hasn't been called for to be Uber. The same applies to Croabt, so I don't see why it should be BL. It's a very good lead, just as Chansey and Blissey are good special walls, but it's not broken as one.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Why would Regirock use an 80% accuracy (not to mention 8 pp) Stone Edge on a near-dead Crobat when it has a 100% accurate Ice Punch?

And Crobat would probably Roost turn 2 as well. In fact a smart Crobat would stall out Regirock's SE pp with Roost (it will never OHKO with a crit, since Expert Belt doesn't apply), or recover up to 60% or so if it decides to Ice Punch before U-turning.

I don't even see why that situation should ever occur. The Regirock user should always make sure to pack enough Attack to OHKO with Stone Edge. But assuming that isn't the case, there's still the fact that Regirocks commonly carry this move called Earthquake. It is never a cleat-cut decision for the Crobat user.

However, Electrode's purpose is solely that; Crobat has the ability to scout after his lead duties are done.

Conversely, Electrode can guarantee a safe entry for the RD recipient, sometimes taking a Pokemon out in the process, which Crobat can't do. Crobat has the possibility of coming back in to renew weather later on, but it can't be guaranteed, as believe it or not there are some offensive onslaughts that it can't survive.

All in all, I don't see the big fuss with Crobat either. I've had lots of fun exploiting its predictability recently with several different Pokemon. LO Steelix was great fun to use as a lead. It's unbelievable how many people are willing to risk death just to prevent rocks going up on turn one. Same deal with Ambipom to a lesser extent. Bulky Ampharos switches in on Brave Birds and U-turns all day and brushes off some crippling status in the process, though oddly I've found it to happen much more often against Normal types like Ambipom and Staraptor (must just be a coincidence). Kabutops gives Crobat a similar dilemma as with Steelix (how much are you willing to risk to prevent rocks temporarily?), and also handles Froslass leads handily.

So in a way it'll be sad to see Crobat leave because of the fact that it was so predictable and exploitable. Now I'll have to adapt to a new set of less predictable leads (probably). It's certainly not the case that Crobat and Froslass leads give your team an unfair advantage either. I've barely even tested them on my teams yet I've been hovering in and around the top 5 on the ladder for the past two weeks now. You can easily run successful teams without them.

 

[Scoopapa]

I've found that having something with decent bulk that hit's hard off the bat on the the team is a decent way to handle lead Crobat. If you're running a lead that is obviously susceptible to taunt (Uxie is probably the most obvious) , you can switch to said attacker (Azumarill is a good example, as well as the aforementioned Ampharos) and not worry about the taunt.

You've just gained a free powerful hit against the other team. Sure, you didn't get to set up (although your lead is unscathed), and they have their whole team to switch into your attack, but I'd say you're still at a mild advantage (as opposed to getting borked by taunt and then scouted by U-Turn). What comes in after U-turn to take the attack is most likely less threatening than what would have come in after U-turn on your switch.

I'm not saying this to prove or disprove his BL status, but it's a fairly customizable solution to Crobat that doesn't represent an "over-centralization" of the metagame.

As for Scarf Espeon, the only one I've ever seen was mine. A lot of Crobats stayed in to die, possibly because Crobat users just click "U-turn" when they think "switch". Obviously if Scarf Espeon became popular this would change. It's certainly a viable anti-lead and a great revenge killer, though. It just sucks if they have a dark typed pursuit user on the team :/.

 

[Relictivity]

I don't even see why that situation should ever occur. The Regirock user should always make sure to pack enough Attack to OHKO with Stone Edge. But assuming that isn't the case, there's still the fact that Regirocks commonly carry this move called Earthquake. It is never a cleat-cut decision for the Crobat user.

Many Crobat's run HP EVs, test it against one of those... you will fine Stone Edge won't make the cut.

Conversely, Electrode can guarantee a safe entry for the RD recipient, sometimes taking a Pokemon out in the process, which Crobat can't do. Crobat has the possibility of coming back in to renew weather later on, but it can't be guaranteed, as believe it or not there are some offensive onslaughts that it can't survive.

Electrode is a one use pokemon. It explodes. Crobat U-Turns so it can come in and Rain Dance again later. That is a significant difference. Also, Electrode is much weaker in defense then Crobat, so sometimes, using Taunt will be it's last move.

All in all, I don't see the big fuss with Crobat either. I've had lots of fun exploiting its predictability recently with several different Pokemon. But can you predict what is coming in? LO Steelix was great fun to use as a lead. It's unbelievable how many people are willing to risk death just to prevent rocks going up on turn one. Same deal with Ambipom to a lesser extent. Bulky Ampharos switches in on Brave Birds and U-turns all day While Crobat U-Turns to the appropriate counter. and brushes off some crippling status in the process, though oddly I've found it to happen much more often against Normal types like Ambipom and Staraptor (must just be a coincidence). Kabutops gives Crobat a similar dilemma as with Steelix (how much are you willing to risk to prevent rocks temporarily?), and also handles Froslass leads handily. Kabutops running Stealth Rock is very unusual. It could be done... but it would probably be wasting the potential it had. Again, test it with a Crobat with HP EVs.

So in a way it'll be sad to see Crobat leave because of the fact that it was so predictable and exploitable. Again, U-Turn to another pokemon is not really "predictable". You now have to deal with that pokemon instead. It's kind of useless to predict U-Turn if you don't know what it is going to switch too. Now I'll have to adapt to a new set of less predictable leads (probably). It's certainly not the case that Crobat and Froslass leads give your team an unfair advantage either. I've barely even tested them on my teams yet I've been hovering in and around the top 5 on the ladder for the past two weeks now. You can easily run successful teams without them. Success is not based on Crobat or Frosslass. It's based on how well you can work around them. Like you have been doing. However, Crobat and Frosslass will almost never leave a team without some advantage given, be it Taunt, Rain Dance, Nasty Plot, U-Turn, or a kill.

I'm not sure "overcentralization" is considred an OK argument now, because of vagueness, however i would have to say that if you are being forced to run something (Steelix would be OK, but not Kabutops as a lead) this unusual to deal with Crobat, I would say that meets the definition.