I don't really see how explosion is controversial as it tends to be on a large portion of "scout pokemon". Not to mention most ghost pokemon get it anyways... If you worried about power go for Selfdestruct instead, but some form of last ditch attack seems necessary. Oh, and please excuse any typos I may have missed, I'm using a very odd keyboard...
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 11 - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter Magmortified
- Start date
- Status
Doesn't mean it can't have dig.
I'm looking at the counters thread and I'm seeing lots of yes's for Magnezone and Heatran (and Infernape is mentioned too) to be viable counters. That means no Earthquake. Why isn't it that hard to just not accept the move?
Is that an official list? Could you link to where it came from?
What are your specific examples of other scout pokemon that get explosion? Again I urge people to go look at the base Speed and Attack of pokemon that learn Explosion and Self Destruct.
I couldn't find a damage calculator flexible enough, so I just used Infernape. It's only a difference of 1 more base Atk.
Calculations assume Adamant 252 Infernape using Earthquake. All sets used are the first listed in the analysis.
Scizor
CB: 53.63% - 62.98%
LO: 46.71% - 55.02%
none: 35.99% - 42.21%
Heatran
none: 121.91% - 143.52%
Suicune
CB: 25.25% - 29.70%
LO: 22.03% - 25.99%
none: 16.83% - 19.80%
Hippowdon
CB: 25.24% - 29.76%
LO: 22.14% - 25.95%
none: 16.90% - 20.00%
Donphan
CB: 25.78% - 30.21%
LO: 22.40% - 26.56%
none: 17.19% - 20.31%
Metagross
CB: 67.31% - 79.12%
LO: 58.79% - 68.96%
none: 45.05% - 53.02%
Dusknoir
CB: 30.95% - 36.39%
LO: 26.87% - 31.63%
none: 20.75% - 24.49%
Forretress
CB: 26.84% - 31.64%
Swampert
CB: 30.67% - 36.16%
LO: 26.93% - 31.67%
none: 20.70% - 24.19%
Snorlax
CB: 33.80% - 39.56%
LO: 29.42% - 34.59%
none: 22.66% - 26.64%
(Reasoning to come)
Calculations assume Adamant 252 Infernape using Earthquake. All sets used are the first listed in the analysis.
Scizor
CB: 53.63% - 62.98%
LO: 46.71% - 55.02%
none: 35.99% - 42.21%
Heatran
none: 121.91% - 143.52%
Suicune
CB: 25.25% - 29.70%
LO: 22.03% - 25.99%
none: 16.83% - 19.80%
Hippowdon
CB: 25.24% - 29.76%
LO: 22.14% - 25.95%
none: 16.90% - 20.00%
Donphan
CB: 25.78% - 30.21%
LO: 22.40% - 26.56%
none: 17.19% - 20.31%
Metagross
CB: 67.31% - 79.12%
LO: 58.79% - 68.96%
none: 45.05% - 53.02%
Dusknoir
CB: 30.95% - 36.39%
LO: 26.87% - 31.63%
none: 20.75% - 24.49%
Forretress
CB: 26.84% - 31.64%
Swampert
CB: 30.67% - 36.16%
LO: 26.93% - 31.67%
none: 20.70% - 24.19%
Snorlax
CB: 33.80% - 39.56%
LO: 29.42% - 34.59%
none: 22.66% - 26.64%
(Reasoning to come)
Doesn't mean it can't have dig. It can have Dig and use it, but using it would be certain death for it and/or it's team.
I can ask you the same thing about accepting it? No one has given me a great reason on why Magnezone and Heatran demands more attention than any other Pokemon within the Check List when they're more than enough to keeps this Pokemon in line. They were intended to be "counters" in the begin, now people say that it has so many checks that it doesn't need a specific Pokemon. As for the list, it came from mostly DK.
Chrono, use this: http://libelldra.com/competitive/damage/
What would anybody say about something along the lines of a Physical Steel Seed Flare? Stat-down would be an excellent catalyst for switching, which allows for more scouting. While allowing us a usable Steel STAB and more movepool space so that we don't necessarily have to pack Screech AND a STAB.
Obviously, we could tone it down in terms of BP or even how many stages of Defense it'd lower should the effect activate to prevent it from becoming overpowered.
Obviously, we could tone it down in terms of BP or even how many stages of Defense it'd lower should the effect activate to prevent it from becoming overpowered.
Gengar is one of the fastest pokemon to learn Explosion. Metagross isn't all that fast, but it can use Agility to explode faster than just about anything. Besides if Explosion ever gets too popular people just need a steel and/or ghost pokemon on their team. I certainly don't think it's over powered...
Btw. We haven't discussed special moves yet. Why is this important? Metal Sound can force switches, and seems right up CAP7's alley (yes, support move, I know, but we haven't discussed special moves AT ALL). Even if it can't abuse MS, U-Turning to something that can abuse Blissey's weakened SD IS useful.
I'm in support of Shadow Ball, Flash Cannon, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, Thunder, and Grass Knot. MS/Grass Knot does somewhat mitigate Swampert, but you can always switch out, you risk EQ on both attacks, and MS has imperfect accuracy.
I'm in support of Shadow Ball, Flash Cannon, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, Thunder, and Grass Knot. MS/Grass Knot does somewhat mitigate Swampert, but you can always switch out, you risk EQ on both attacks, and MS has imperfect accuracy.
So a steel type crush claw? I wouldn't mind that. Just making it a clone of crush claw would save a lot of work.
I know this isn't the order of things but I'd want to see what support moves it got first before we made any decisions on power. At this point I wouldn't be opposed to it
Gengar also has only base 65 attack. Electrode: Base 50. Azelf and Mew are the only outliers that are close to CAP 7 in speed and power. Metagross, Shiftry, Omastar, Drifblim Qwilfish etc.. all have to use some other method of getting their speed that high.
Don't have a problem with any Special move suggested. Not like it could use them (Unless we use some gimmicky Nasty Plot set)
I was thinking the same thing. We could increase the stat-down by one and have it as a Screech + Crush Claw combo.
Has Rosk Smash been disscused? It could allow for some confuse hax, and give CAP7 some chance of beating heatran and magnezone. It would probably not kill either of them, and would be more or less an underused option for it's low base power.
The physical seed flare with STAB would be cool if the Base Power was like... 90. If not then its more broken that Meteor Mash!
Thank you GT.
Another calculation:
Vaporeon
CB 36.61-43.30%
LO 31.92-37.72%
none 24.55-29.02%
The short version: CB max Atk CAP7 can not 3HKO Suicune, Donphan, Hippowdon, or Forretress with Earthquake. LO max Atk CAP7 can not 3HKO Swampert or Dusknoir. In addition, there are many pokemon that CB max Atk CAP7 can not 2HKO with Earthquake.
The addition of Earthquake to the movepool only really affects steels. As for them, I feel that not having a way to threaten steels is a death sentence for the scout concept. As soon as you switch in CAP7, your opponent will go strait to a steel type every time, probably Magnezone. If CAP7 gets any popularity on the server at all, you won't need a scout to know your opponent has a Magnezone.
My point is that not having Earthquake, while increasing the amount of counters, will decrease the amount of information you are likely to gain.
Another calculation:
Vaporeon
CB 36.61-43.30%
LO 31.92-37.72%
none 24.55-29.02%
The short version: CB max Atk CAP7 can not 3HKO Suicune, Donphan, Hippowdon, or Forretress with Earthquake. LO max Atk CAP7 can not 3HKO Swampert or Dusknoir. In addition, there are many pokemon that CB max Atk CAP7 can not 2HKO with Earthquake.
The addition of Earthquake to the movepool only really affects steels. As for them, I feel that not having a way to threaten steels is a death sentence for the scout concept. As soon as you switch in CAP7, your opponent will go strait to a steel type every time, probably Magnezone. If CAP7 gets any popularity on the server at all, you won't need a scout to know your opponent has a Magnezone.
My point is that not having Earthquake, while increasing the amount of counters, will decrease the amount of information you are likely to gain.
reasoning please? just because something is cool is not a good reason to add it. Why do you think it should be added? And as far as a BP of 90 I think that already rather broken. True CAP7 is no serene gracer but even a 30% chance it too much with such a powerful move.
Fire punch would decently threaten steels but still give Heatran a counter status. Besides that were are the damage calculations for magnezone? If we take him into account that means that both "counters" are no longer viable. Elemental punches(fangs if elegy wins) are rather common anyways.
Im not saying "IT SHOULD BE ADDED". Magmortified wanted a Steel Physical Seed Flare, and i think it would be a good addition. Steel is a poor attacking type, which makes up for the good side-effect. But still, 120 is overpowered, which is the reason ppl dont want Meteor Mash as an option. Thats why i said 90 or 85 Base Power would be good.
Well seeing how you said "it would be cool if" it would be natual for someone to ignore your post, since the rules clearly state that you need to provide a solid reasoning. If you thought someone else had already said it perfectly fine then your post was just unneccary, no? If you wanted to support someone then you should have clearly stated as much. As for your idea it has already been said that something like a steel crush claw clone would be the best idea. But if you take a steel move a 90 or even 85 you need to take STAB into account. 90 become 135 and then you have to think about the possible stat drops, which I believe is 2 stages for seed flare. That is by no mean a OHKO evertime, but it's a bit over powered for a scouting pokemon.
Then you wont be able to use Iron head or Shadow Claw neither? Its just an idea! It sounds appealing thanks to the switchings it may cause which is the purpose of a scout. If the 2 stages sound broken, then make it one! There are a lot of options, you shouldnt just flame an idea because YOU think its broken!
They're still be considered checks by our standard. Slap a choice scarf and revenge kill the bastard, or switch in on a resisted move and blast it to hell. Again, losing two "counter" isn't so bad when you have a boatload of other Pokemon in the waiting room.
Fire Punch is hardly threatening:
Really... Why is is so necessary for Heatran to counter this thing that it must not be able to do anything to Steels? It already has bulky waters and grounds as counters either way; I don't get why we need to make Heatran a guaranteed counter as well, at the cost of it not being able to harm Steels.
I really don't understand how you can use Bronzong and Skarmory as examples. Both are totally uneffected by EQ and the others on the list can be 2HKOed or 3HKOed barring a critical. Isn't the whole point of this thing to not be set up fodder? We want it to scout, which will probably give it roar or whirlwind. Even if it doesn't get puesdo hazing moves if we do give it a steel crush claw or sreech that needs to be factored in as well.
I support all the elemental punches (Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch) as well as Brick Break. In addition, if Elegy of Emptiness's art wins, rather than renaming all of the elemental punches, the Elemental Fangs seem like a better bet (Thunder Fang, Ice Fang, Fire Fang). For a ground move, I support Magnitude or Bone Club, possibly Bonemarang, but Earthquake does seem a bit too powerful. In general, I think any most moves with base power 80 or less are fair game, but anything with base power 100 or greater seems like it could make this thing too sweepy, especially if we give it any stat-up moves (besides maybe curse).
Going on to the fangs/ punch's topic, just because someone's art wins, doesnt mean that everyone who uses CAP7 has to make do with a power drop in the move they are using, which could turn many 3OHKO's into 4OHKO's, reducing its ability to scout significantly.
It would be much more reasoned to rename the punch's to kick, and give it the fangs as well, so people can decide if they want the power or the flinch chance.
It would be much more reasoned to rename the punch's to kick, and give it the fangs as well, so people can decide if they want the power or the flinch chance.
- Status