New DPP Tier Lists

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Now that we've seen the error of forming a UU tier based on theorymon and not experience, would it not be logical to do the same for OU? Would it not make sense to move every Uber down to OU, and then move them up to Uber again only after testing them all together, similar to the process with our current UU suspects? OU would then be what's left over when those deemed broken are no longer present.

That would be pointless, as we already have an Uber tier. If we were going to do this for consistency's sake, then it is obviously more convenient to go with what we have now instead of making OU a duplicate of Ubers. The Uber ladder has been up for over a year now, more than enough time to determine what is 'Suspect' and what isn't. We could've done what we are doing now, but instead we decided to take the other route, selecting the Ubers that are not obviously unbalancing for OU on the evidence of the Uber metagame and testing them one at a time in OU. The reason for this was probably that the number of Pokemon that are obvious Uber material is greater than those that are not, hence this process is more efficient, but then again I would be in favor of testing all the suspects in OU at once if that was the case.

Still though, now that we have a more accurate way to determine tiering, we should keep this in mind for next generation. Instead of pre-determining every Pokemon's tier and moving things up and down as we see fit, we should work from the top down, the way we're currently organizing BL, UU, BL2, and NU.

I think this will most probably be the case, starting with an Uber metagame off the bat and quickly forming a 'rough' OU based on this. The tiers could then be refined over time whilst not completely impeding the development of the standard metagame.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

In terms of Ubers and OU, I think it's safe to say that if we had used the proper method of determining OU, we'd have something almost exactly identical to what we have now. Possibly, we'd've banned Garchomp far more quickly, and Latias wouldn't've been banned for ages, and so on, but the final product would be almost what we have now, if not, exactly what we have now.

However, I'm sure that when generation 5's competitive scene begins, we'll begin with everything unbanned, gradually choosing suspects like we're doing with UU.

 

[Jonathan]

In terms of Ubers and OU, I think it's safe to say that if we had used the proper method of determining OU, we'd have something almost exactly identical to what we have now. Possibly, we'd've banned Garchomp far more quickly, and Latias wouldn't've been banned for ages, and so on, but the final product would be almost what we have now, if not, exactly what we have now.

I'm sorry but how can you say that, even going as far as to predict all the changes we've made to the metagame over the last few months as though they were inevitable in some shape or form. If you put peoples' long held prejudices aside about about what constitutes an Uber (I'm talking here about anime and in-game status as a legendary, 600+ stats, etc.) and just look at them as another Pokemon, I'd bet almost anything the tiering would come out different. Given the way we've organized BL and UU, OU should theoretically be our current Ubers environment, minus a few Pokemon banned from competitive Pokemon altogether.

Now, that is if we want to do things "correctly." In reality this would probably constrict OU to an even smaller number of Pokemon, as not many Pokemon currently in OU can compete in the Uber environment. And current UU Pokemon would see almost no play whatsoever (I am aware of the few exceptions). So most likely we'll end up doing what we've always done, both to increase the variety in our metagame, and because I don't think anyone would be too happy about a few Pokemon not having any environment they can be used in (I'm talking here about those banned from "super OU").

 

[Tangerine]

Now that we've seen the error of forming a UU tier based on theorymon and not experience, would it not be logical to do the same for OU? Would it not make sense to move every Uber down to OU, and then move them up to Uber again only after testing them all together, similar to the process with our current UU suspects? OU would then be what's left over when those deemed broken are no longer present.

There was no error in forming a UU tier based on theorymon. The error is purely a philosophical preference issue, and really has zero bearing on the metagame. You need read my post against ChouToshio.

I don't believe we should adhere that much to philosophical purity. OU does not adhere to the same principle as UU anyway - since OU is simply meant to be the "standard"/"main"/"a balanced" tier. What's the difference between OU with 10 previous "ubers" and OU now... what makes the one with the 10 previous "ubers" better other than "philosophical" purity? The only thing we do know is that OU with 10 previous "ubers" will likely end up with fewer available choices.

 

[Jonathan]

There was no error in forming a UU tier based on theorymon. The error is purely a philosophical preference issue, and really has zero bearing on the metagame. You need read my post against ChouToshio.

Yeah I realize that, I should probably have put quotation marks on the word error to make my view more clear. I did this in my subsequent post though when I said: Now if we want to do things "correctly."

I don't believe we should adhere that much to philosophical purity. OU does not adhere to the same principle as UU anyway - since OU is simply meant to be the "standard"/"main"/"a balanced" tier. What's the difference between OU with 10 previous "ubers" and OU now... what makes the one with the 10 previous "ubers" better other than "philosophical" purity? The only thing we do know is that OU with 10 previous "ubers" will likely end up with fewer available choices.

I agree, and this is essentially what I concluded in my above post.

 

[Justice_X]

I never really heard that Hypno was the Blissey of new UU. Chansey has always been UU's Blissey.

From the main site: "Whereas special attackers in OU have trouble getting past Blissey, in UU they have trouble getting past Hypno." I don't know if it's true or not but it's where I got the idea from.

 

[Heysup]

From the main site: "Whereas special attackers in OU have trouble getting past Blissey, in UU they have trouble getting past Hypno." I don't know if it's true or not but it's where I got the idea from.

That was before the BLUU merge, as of now Hypno cant do much in UU. Its at home in NU though :)

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

From the main site: "Whereas special attackers in OU have trouble getting past Blissey, in UU they have trouble getting past Hypno." I don't know if it's true or not but it's where I got the idea from.

Oh, was it from an analysis? They haven't been updated since the proper UU began, so they're all about the old UU. So, yes, Hypno was the most heralded special wall in old UU as far as I remember, but let's pretend it didn't exist. :D

 

[MapleSandwich]

When is Yanmega going to be unbanned on the UU ladder? I've got a deadly team (I hope) all ready to go, but it's not legal yet.

 

[errorrrr]

Weaville is actually in OU?? lol... i havn't encounter one yet...

 

[Erazor]

When is Yanmega going to be unbanned on the UU ladder? I've got a deadly team (I hope) all ready to go, but it's not legal yet.

I think that it'll be unbanned after suspect voting finishes.

 

[panamaxis]

With new pokemon entering the metagame I have a question: Say for example pokemon a is banned while pokemon b drops out of OU to UU due to lack in usage.

Now suppose pokemon b would counter pokemon a, making pokemon a, not broken while pokemon b is in the metagame. What happens?

Basically, say for example staraptor is banned, then rotom-A moves to UU, making Staraptor not as broken as before..would staraptor be retested with rotom, or how would this work?

 

[Caelum]

If it's a legitimate issue like that, we'd consider retesting it. Simple as that.

 

[ODDish]

Hey, hope everyone is well.

Sorry for the necro posting, but as Chou noted a few pages back not been around for ages (blame of World of Warcraft).

The new UU/NU tiers have quite a few surprises.

Quick question do people actually play NU? (Its probably the only metagame I'd actually come back to play).

 

[Zoro]

Well, there isnt a ladder, but I actually see some people battling each other in Shoddy.

There's also a NU Discussion Thread further down.


and welcome back.

 

[X-Act]

Also, July is round the corner, and that means it's soon time to update the tier lists once again.

I'm closing this thread in the meantime.