Overprotection and Prophylaxis in Pokemon

[Unownasofyet]

Recently, I was reading the chess classic My System by Aaron Nimzovich, and I am trying to apply it to other games other then chess, where my first stop was Pokemon. Overprotection seems to be the most promising, with Prophylaxis also looking interesting.

Overprotection:
Protecting a point with more force then needed to prepare for a specific situation where it might be needed.

This is what started my concept. Having two counters to a Heatran or Latias can make sure that even if your counter is K.O.'d by something, you can still counter something that is a threat to your team. I have used this on my team ever since I started playing , and it has stopped many an opposing sweep. Maybe, since this is now a not very specific concept in terms of not using a redundant team, so just like our next topic, further testing is needed, as I am not very good on Shoddy.

Prophylaxis:
Preventing something before it happens.

Former chess world champion Tigran Petrosian was a master of this. Playing conservatively (but still in your team's style of course) when needed can improve your prediction ability without even having to work! For example, using a neutral move on a Pokemon to still be able to do a useful amount of damage to it's counter when it willl probably switch in. This advanced form of prediction may not present an oppurtunity for an entire battle, but overall it has scored me several dozen KOs during my battling.

I am a theorymon fan, and I would like to see how my ideas hold up under other people's opinion's and testing. I hope this provides you food for thought.

 

[panamaxis]

Overprotection:
Protecting a point with more force then needed to prepare for a specific situation where it might be needed.

This is what started my concept. Having two counters to a Heatran or Latias can make sure that even if your counter is K.O.'d by something, you can still counter something that is a threat to your team.

I have issues with this, due to the large amount of threats in DPPt, teams cannot afford to carry multiple counters to a pokemon, most teams will not have a counter to every pokemon (infact I'm pretty sure every team is weak to a certain pokemon, whether it be something gimmicky like belly drum clefable).


Prophylaxis:
Preventing something before it happens.

Former chess world champion Tigran Petrosian was a master of this. Playing conservatively (but still in your team's style of course) when needed can improve your prediction ability without even having to work! For example, using a neutral move on a Pokemon to still be able to do a useful amount of damage to it's counter when it willl probably switch in. This advanced form of prediction may not present an oppurtunity for an entire battle, but overall it has scored me several dozen KOs during my battling.

Isn't that basically just prediction?

 

[tripe]

Prophylaxis:
Preventing something before it happens.

Former chess world champion Tigran Petrosian was a master of this. Playing conservatively (but still in your team's style of course) when needed can improve your prediction ability without even having to work! For example, using a neutral move on a Pokemon to still be able to do a useful amount of damage to it's counter when it willl probably switch in. This advanced form of prediction may not present an oppurtunity for an entire battle, but overall it has scored me several dozen KOs during my battling.

Why would need one to play conservatively when one could out-predict and scout an opponent, by using a lot of double switches, or stat boosting while an opponent switches to their supposed counter, to increase the chance of beating of said counter. The only way that I see that one would play a bit conservatively is on a choiced pokemon.

 

[petrie911]

I kind of agree with tripe (hmm, that sounded odd). In Pokemon, there's a lot of times you need to predict your opponent to gain the initiative. Admittedly, you shouldn't take too dire risks, but if you do it well it often pays off in a big way.

Similarly, overprotection tends not to work. There's too much to protect against. Besides, with a little work, you can play around most threats. Or at least that's been my experience.

Also, your mention of overprotection and Nimzowich reminded me of this...
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1334664

 

[Sudo]

Pokemon and chess are very different games which are only linked with the concept of 'prediction'. However, prediction is applied differently in each; in chess, prediction mainly comes from memorizing and recognizing patterns and acting accordingly; while this sounds very similar to how it's used in Pokemon, there are many more random factors that can't be accounted for until it is revealed in an individual match.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Overprotection:
Protecting a point with more force then needed to prepare for a specific situation where it might be needed.

This tends to be what most people do, lots of people are "overprepared" for things like Salamence (Stealth Rock, Ice Shard, multiple Steel-types etc) but in the long run it usually winds up working against them.

Prophylaxis:
Preventing something before it happens.

Former chess world champion Tigran Petrosian was a master of this. Playing conservatively (but still in your team's style of course) when needed can improve your prediction ability without even having to work! For example, using a neutral move on a Pokemon to still be able to do a useful amount of damage to it's counter when it willl probably switch in. This advanced form of prediction may not present an oppurtunity for an entire battle, but overall it has scored me several dozen KOs during my battling.

I am a huge proponent of this. I'll sacrifice my choiced Heatran using Fire Blast to that Gyarados just to make sure it cant switch in again because of SR, knowing that I can come in and beat that Gyarados with something else right after tran dies. Thinking multiple turns in advance is usually what I try to do. I make moves based on what I want my opponent to do, instead of based on some concrete strategy that my team has. I prefer that flexibility in my strategy, even though baiting and double switching opens me up to getting haxed a lot.

 

[imperfectluck]

I tend to employ overprotection in the form of Rotom + Zapdos on my stall team. Several people think I'm insane because they tend to mostly cover the same stuff, but I guess that falls under "overprotection." My record on shoddy backs up its usefulness.

 

[haunter]

Overprotection:
Protecting a point with more force then needed to prepare for a specific situation where it might be needed.

As Panamaxis already pointed out, there are too many threats in DPP to carry more than a counter for each of them. Indeed, it's already difficult to carry a single counter for each of them. Not to mention that things like Salamence have, actually, no sure counters.

Prophylaxis:
Preventing something before it happens.

I believe prophylaxis is the essence of competitive pokemon. Predicting and out-predicting is usually what differentiate a good player and a mediocre one.

 

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

[theory]Overprotection should be more like this: you have lucario and gliscor is your main enemy so you have 3 gliscor counters.
[/theory]

Keep in mind that in pokemon there are too much strong ones while in chess there are very few truly important positions(like e5)

Also, your mention of overprotection and Nimzowich reminded me of this...
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1334664

Great game.

 

[Unownasofyet]

But if you look at openings like the Sveshnikov Sicilian (1.e4, c5 2.Nf3, Nc6 3.d4, cd 4.Nd4, e5 5.Nb5, d6 6.Nc3, Nf6 7.Bg5, a6 8.Bf6, gf 9.Nd5, b5! is a move order), Black trades off a major weakness (on the D-File) in exchange for space in the center and attacking chances. It is sort of like having a big hole for one opposing Pokemon (say a Tyranitar), then having a Dugtrio and a Suicune to counter that.

 

[Stathakis]

Pokemon and chess are very different games which are only linked with the concept of 'prediction'. However, prediction is applied differently in each; in chess, prediction mainly comes from memorizing and recognizing patterns and acting accordingly; while this sounds very similar to how it's used in Pokemon, there are many more random factors that can't be accounted for until it is revealed in an individual match.

either you are a terrible pokemon player or you are a terrible chess player because this statement is so far off from the truth it's appalling.

in pokemon, predicting is playing mind games with your opponent. it is basically guessing what you think your opponent is going to do. there is NO such concept in chess. there is no guessing, whatsoever. in fact, the people who predict the LEAST in pokemon are those who play chess (myself, obi, IPL, and a few others)

the similarity between chess and pokemon lies in the long-term thinking. you keep your pawn structure in chess a certain way for the endgame, you keep the double bishops in the open game, etc etc. This is similar to keeping certain pokemon that your opponent can't wall alive or something like that. for instance, if your opponent's starmie is dead you are going to be careful with your infernape because if you play smartly, it's likely you'll be able to sweep with him. or, say, in stall, if your opponent still has a starmie alive but you killed lucario already and you have to sacrifice someone, who are you going to sacrifice, your stalk gyara or your blissey? making the right decisions for the longterm is where chess and pokemon are similar. generally pokemoners who play chess are already good at this so they can win easily without having to predict.



as for overprotection, imperfectluck basically covered my sentiments about it. it seems doing such things as overprotection the way ipl does it is the only way to take on well-built offensive teams, because if one doesnt have two things that cover the same stuff, things like lucario+scizor+ape who are all walled by the same stuff are going to be able to sacrifice themselves for the next guy to break through.


what's funny is I never actually employed overprotection in chess as I generally play sharp (and mostly unsound) gambit openings such as the BDG, the Portugese, and the Smith Morra. I guess my style of chess play continued into pokemon with sacrifices and such.


EDIT: and while some people might say that prediction skills separate good players from mediocre players, I believe it's winning without predicting (since predicting is just guessing) that separates great players from good players

 

[locopoke]

I believe prophylaxis is the essence of competitive pokemon. Predicting and out-predicting is usually what differentiate a good player and a mediocre one.

I think you're 100% correct. Making a good team that counters common threats is one thing, but the "skill" part of Pokemon is pretty much out-predicting your opponent and playing the game right.

 

[mikeeeey]

Overprotection:
Protecting a point with more force then needed to prepare for a specific situation where it might be needed.

This is what started my concept. Having two counters to a Heatran or Latias can make sure that even if your counter is K.O.'d by something, you can still counter something that is a threat to your team. I have used this on my team ever since I started playing , and it has stopped many an opposing sweep. Maybe, since this is now a not very specific concept in terms of not using a redundant team, so just like our next topic, further testing is needed, as I am not very good on Shoddy.

Panamaxis said it.
Too many Counters.
The pokemon may not even be on the opposing team.
Personally, i just make sure i can topple Blissey, Swampert, Metagross, etc through my sweepers.. just make sure they're powerful enough or other ways depending on the team.
But i don't base 1 pokemon to stop another or 2.

Prophylaxis:
Preventing something before it happens.

Former chess world champion Tigran Petrosian was a master of this. Playing conservatively (but still in your team's style of course) when needed can improve your prediction ability without even having to work! For example, using a neutral move on a Pokemon to still be able to do a useful amount of damage to it's counter when it willl probably switch in. This advanced form of prediction may not present an oppurtunity for an entire battle, but overall it has scored me several dozen KOs during my battling.

I am a theorymon fan, and I would like to see how my ideas hold up under other people's opinion's and testing. I hope this provides you food for thought.

I do this too sometimes, but often you need to predict with a bit more risk, especially when in a tight situation. I'll predict depending on the situation entirely. There are many factors involved, not just the safest choice all the time.

 

[Run]

But if you look at openings like the Sveshnikov Sicilian (1.e4, c5 2.Nf3, Nc6 3.d4, cd 4.Nd4, e5 5.Nb5, d6 6.Nc3, Nf6 7.Bg5, a6 8.Bf6, gf 9.Nd5, b5! is a move order), Black trades off a major weakness (on the D-File) in exchange for space in the center and attacking chances. It is sort of like having a big hole for one opposing Pokemon (say a Tyranitar), then having a Dugtrio and a Suicune to counter that.

This is the way I build a lot of my team strategies. The idea is to bring out the pokemon most threatening to my late game sweeper as early as possible so they have nothing to stop it once I get it in. They will never know they really need it until its too late. My teams often draw out bulky waters early and make sacrifices to deal with them, but once they are down, DD TTar and Heatran come in and pretty much run through the rest of the team without problems.