It would make more sense to test the other suspects brought up first instead of starting to test the clauses then having to go back to test more suspect pokemon when we can just get it all over with one time.
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Future Pokemon Suspects.
- Thread starter gengod
- Start date
It would make more sense to test the other suspects brought up first instead of starting to test the clauses then having to go back to test more suspect pokemon when we can just get it all over with one time.
I would agree with you if there were other pokemons to test, but if we exclude Soul Dew Latias (and Latios, obviously), then are there other pokemons we need to test?
In my opinion, the only other "suspect" we could give a chance is Wynaut.
So I only see two options: 1) test Wynaut 2) test the clauses.
I thought that one of the most compelling reasons for putting Wynaut immediately in the Uber tier was this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1715215&postcount=35
Deoxys-D
I definietly agree with ET there. I see little reason to allow Wynaut to be a suspect when its simply a water downed version of Wobbuffeut, a Pokemon that was banned for a completely different reason than any of the current suspect Pokemon.
ET's post was completely right. Wobbuffet's stats were irrelevant to its banning, and the only stat that really matters to why Wobb was such a bitch (Speed), is similar enough with Wynaut to warrant the same treatment. Shadow Tag + Encore was why Wobbu was broken, and since Wynaut has the exact same things going for it, I dont see how it wouldn't be broken as well...
Because here's a list of what Wynaut actually outspeeds with +Speed 252: (Bold is what I deem set up bait while Italics is on the fence)
Snorlax- Can be PP stalled by Encoring Curse, but on the same note Return from a 0 Atk Snorlax does 51.66%-61.03% to a 0 HP/128 Def Wynaut and 54.06%-63.96% to a 252 HP Wynaut.
Bronzong- Admittedly Tickle set up bait and EQ does laughable damage.
Spiritomb- Can be caught in CM or Rest or Sleep Talk I guess (or WoW?), but has SE Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse, both of which easily 2HKO (do I even have to post calcs?)
Forretress- Forretress is set up bait but has the non-gimmicky option of runing Shed Shell anyways.
Rhyperior- The Substitute set can be Encored on Swords Dance or Sub, but alternatively Rhyperior could just run like 8 more Speed EVs and not worry about it. Not to mention Earthquake and Stone Edge easily 2HKO while Megahorn OHKOes.
Dusknoir- It can catch you on Pain Split and Will-o-wisp but on the other hand Dusknoir can use Shadow Sneak to fuck over Encore while being immune to Counter.
Hippowdon- According to Theorymon even accounting for Tickle EQ is a 3HKO. Wynaut can catch you on SR and Slack Off, but if you predict it coming in then is it really a problem?
Blissey- What, this wasn't set up bait anyways?
Base 60s- Run 16 Speed EVs.
There really isn't as much that Wynaut can Shadow Tag+Encore to screw over. At least Wobbuffet had the bulk to not have to worry about predicting whether or not something like Hippowdon would EQ to get in safely.
Snorlax- Can be PP stalled by Encoring Curse, but on the same note Return from a 0 Atk Snorlax does 51.66%-61.03% to a 0 HP/128 Def Wynaut and 54.06%-63.96% to a 252 HP Wynaut.
Bronzong- Admittedly Tickle set up bait and EQ does laughable damage.
Spiritomb- Can be caught in CM or Rest or Sleep Talk I guess (or WoW?), but has SE Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse, both of which easily 2HKO (do I even have to post calcs?)
Forretress- Forretress is set up bait but has the non-gimmicky option of runing Shed Shell anyways.
Rhyperior- The Substitute set can be Encored on Swords Dance or Sub, but alternatively Rhyperior could just run like 8 more Speed EVs and not worry about it. Not to mention Earthquake and Stone Edge easily 2HKO while Megahorn OHKOes.
Dusknoir- It can catch you on Pain Split and Will-o-wisp but on the other hand Dusknoir can use Shadow Sneak to fuck over Encore while being immune to Counter.
Hippowdon- According to Theorymon even accounting for Tickle EQ is a 3HKO. Wynaut can catch you on SR and Slack Off, but if you predict it coming in then is it really a problem?
Blissey- What, this wasn't set up bait anyways?
Base 60s- Run 16 Speed EVs.
There really isn't as much that Wynaut can Shadow Tag+Encore to screw over. At least Wobbuffet had the bulk to not have to worry about predicting whether or not something like Hippowdon would EQ to get in safely.
By their very nature, tankish slow pokemon usually need to do two things, both of which Wynaut can exploit:
- Use their set-up move of choice (usually SR)
- Recover off damage so they can continue to do their job
Is an injured Hippowdon, facing a pokemon which can do 30-40% to it, not going to Slack Off? Does Wynaut not then get in easily and ruin it?
Yes, some players who switch that Hippowdon in for the first time and end up at 75% or so are going to attack rather than put up SR. Wynaut is not always a surefire switch, but it doesn't need to be when it knows that the pokemon it wants to render useless are going to eventually use a support move anyway.
Obviously, running speed EVs is not what these pokemon want to be doing, especially when defensive pokemon are more stretched to handle threats than ever before. And as far as the base 60s go, the most notable one - Swampert - usually wants to run Relaxed and would need significant investment to make up for it.
- Use their set-up move of choice (usually SR)
- Recover off damage so they can continue to do their job
Is an injured Hippowdon, facing a pokemon which can do 30-40% to it, not going to Slack Off? Does Wynaut not then get in easily and ruin it?
Yes, some players who switch that Hippowdon in for the first time and end up at 75% or so are going to attack rather than put up SR. Wynaut is not always a surefire switch, but it doesn't need to be when it knows that the pokemon it wants to render useless are going to eventually use a support move anyway.
Obviously, running speed EVs is not what these pokemon want to be doing, especially when defensive pokemon are more stretched to handle threats than ever before. And as far as the base 60s go, the most notable one - Swampert - usually wants to run Relaxed and would need significant investment to make up for it.
It doesn't really matter either way so I'm just going to go ahead and say let's do Deoxys-D next since it seems more likely that it would be OU than Ho-oh
huh, I was under the impression that Deoxys-D and Ho-oh (especially Ho-oh) weren't even being considered for testing at this point, but it's nice that that's apparently not the case. I don't care which Suspect Pokemon we test first, but I agree that we should get them out of the way before moving on to the clauses.
I'd personally go with Deoxys-D and then Ho-oh. Then we can move onto the clauses.
The reason I say this is that we already have definitions of uber for pokemon. Therefore, we can get the pokemon out of the way easily.
However, with clauses, I'm not so sure what the definitions of banning are for those. That's something we need to figure out, and if we were to do the clauses before the pokemon were finished, it would be very inefficient; we would be trying to figure out definitions for banning these things in the time that a pokemon could be being tested.
Therefore:
1. Pokemon (IMO DX-D first, and then Ho-oh)
2. Clauses (I don't have any preference for this, though I really don't think Species Clause stands any chance whatsoever of being unbanned)
PS Are we still doing Latias with Soul Dew, or has that been scrapped?
The reason I say this is that we already have definitions of uber for pokemon. Therefore, we can get the pokemon out of the way easily.
However, with clauses, I'm not so sure what the definitions of banning are for those. That's something we need to figure out, and if we were to do the clauses before the pokemon were finished, it would be very inefficient; we would be trying to figure out definitions for banning these things in the time that a pokemon could be being tested.
Therefore:
1. Pokemon (IMO DX-D first, and then Ho-oh)
2. Clauses (I don't have any preference for this, though I really don't think Species Clause stands any chance whatsoever of being unbanned)
PS Are we still doing Latias with Soul Dew, or has that been scrapped?
I never understood the "but the only argument is _______" argument, and at the very least I'd like to see how that's supposed to translate to "Ho-oh is uber based on the O/D/S Characteristic." In any case, it's implied by the test's support that at least some potential voters wouldn't mind being "forced" to use Stealth Rock more than they already are, so I don't see how that should disqualify Ho-oh from testing at all.
As much as I'd like a Ho-oh test, I agree that it is absurd to test it, especially considering the calculations on the previous page courtesy of Qibing. It would drastically change the metagame and I don't think "Stealth Rock weakness" should be the only basis of the test.
Deoxys-D should be the next suspect on the agenda, considering it is probably the one with the most confusion and ambiguity on tiering placement. I'm opposed to testing Wynaut for the reasons presented by ET in the linked post above.
Deoxys-D should be the next suspect on the agenda, considering it is probably the one with the most confusion and ambiguity on tiering placement. I'm opposed to testing Wynaut for the reasons presented by ET in the linked post above.
Okay.
Stealth Rock on the field means that Ho oh loses 50% of the health by switching in. The argument is that, Ho oh is easier to stop as an attacker, defender, and will have trouble consistently supporting with Stealth Rock in play. With the 50% HP drop each time it switches in, you can easily see why Ho oh will have a harder time.
Essentially, without SR, you're dealing with a full blown Uber. The argument is that "SR is what makes ho oh testable", but not everyone uses SR right now. Meaning we're basing this entire test fully expecting everyone to use SR.
It hinges on the "common battling conditions" - and SR is often assumed to be. But even then, there's compelling evidence that the 50% drop isnt' that much of a hindrance for Ho oh anyway...
To be honest I'd rather not test either of them. Think Dual Screen is nuts now? Wait until we're facing DX-D, who boasts Taunt, Agility, Recover, Toxic, and both Reflect and Light Screen. It has access to myriad support moves: Cosmic Power for bolstering it's defenses, Calm Mind to support his "eh" SpA and high SpD, Thunder Wave to slow things down, Spikes and Stealth Rock to be a good spiker, Trick for an annoying Choice swapper, and Knock Off for lots of fun. I mean, this thing is quite versatile. 50 HP / 160 Def / 160 SpD may not seem like much at first, but when we're talking something that actually can Recover unlike Cresselia, it's pretty intimidating.
When it comes down to it: I'd sooner test DX-D than Ho-oh, but I find both would be deemed Uber despite the testing (this is just my opinion, though).
When it comes down to it: I'd sooner test DX-D than Ho-oh, but I find both would be deemed Uber despite the testing (this is just my opinion, though).
Nobody disputes any of this (well, except the "compelling evidence" part), and that includes the people who want to test Ho-oh, so obviously these aren't exactly end-all "clearly this test is a lost cause" suggestions or there wouldn't be any support left. I basically just don't understand how what you're saying changes anything, considering that we already came to a decision with all of this in mind when we made Ho-oh a Suspect.
Do we really want to see battles coming down to who can get SR on the field first? We can go ahead and test Ho-oh, as long as we can cancel the test if this is what the game degenerates into. Because, honestly, without Stealth Rock, Ho-oh would not even be up for consideration. I don't think it is at all wise to force every team to carry the move or be swept by something that's otherwise uber without a doubt, or else run something ridiculous like Scarf Taunt Aerodactyl to keep SR off the field first-turn and then bring in their own Ho-oh.
@Tangerine: I believe it was Aeolus' decision in response to a thread where he felt that the public felt it should be a suspect. So, I guess the public decided it should be suspect. See this post.
I'd like to see any Pokemon handled first before jumping to the clauses. In retrospect, I think it would've been wiser to test the clauses first since they could (theoretically) effect the outcome of Pokemon tiering. What's done is done though (and I don't think it'll matter that much anyway).
On a philosophical level, I'd love to test every Pokemon. However, I realize that's both impractical and unnecessary. So, I think its agreed we are only testing those Pokemon that we have reasonable suspicion it could be acceptable in OU play. In the case of Ho-oh, I'm not certain it meets that standard. I think most of us would agree that if Stealth Rock didn't exist, we wouldn't be having a discussion about the tiering status of Ho-oh. Most of us would agree that it would be uber given its movepool (fuck you Sacred Fire) and stats. Thus, the question is does Stealth Rock stripping 50% off Ho-oh warrant it to be tested. If going by the assumption that we only test if we have a reasonable suspicion that it could be acceptable in OU; I'd say no. Stealth Rock doesn't do enough to make me believe there is reasonable suspicion it could function in OU; and should every team be required to use Stealth Rock and use a Ghost to prevent Rapid Spin on every team? Ho-oh could severely hamper a team if it gets in before Stealth Rock gets up, early in a match this can be prevented by something like a Taunt Aerodactyl lead. If Ho-oh gets in before you can set-up Stealth Rock; it won't be a pretty picture. There's also Wish support to alleviate the Stealth Rock weakness and Wish Jirachi is an excellent defensive complement to Ho-oh! We have Rapid Spinners. Even a gimmicky option like Rapid Spin + Foresight Hitmontop to get around Ghosts wouldn't be terrible. I'd argue that Ho-oh is effective enough that Ho-oh would pick up the slack on the reduced use of Hitmontop's spot, but that's just an opinion (Moltres doesn't pick up enough slack for a team member like Hitmontop imo to make him viable like Ho-oh does). Finally, Ho-oh has access to Roost to alleviate Stealth Rock and he can easily come in on a lot of top Pokemon like Scizor, Heatran, Metagross Infernape (nobody runs Stone Edge lol), Jirachi, Blissey, etc. and net himself a free Roost. Given all those viable ways to get around the Stealth Rock issue I don't think Ho-oh is burdened enough to be considered viable in OU.
I'm not opposed necessarily to testing, but if given the option I'd prefer he not be tested. Interesting to note, a Life Orb Sacred Fire / Earthquake / Thunderbolt / Overheat or Roost set could single-handedly ruin stall as a viable option.
In the case of Deoxys-D, I do believe he would ultimately be found uber due to the huge amount of support options available to it. However, the arguments for why it may not be uber (lack of offensive power, mediocre defensive typing etc.) are more difficult for me to counter (as opposed to the case of Ho-oh) so if anything, it should be the next Pokemon Suspect.
That is all.
I'd like to see any Pokemon handled first before jumping to the clauses. In retrospect, I think it would've been wiser to test the clauses first since they could (theoretically) effect the outcome of Pokemon tiering. What's done is done though (and I don't think it'll matter that much anyway).
On a philosophical level, I'd love to test every Pokemon. However, I realize that's both impractical and unnecessary. So, I think its agreed we are only testing those Pokemon that we have reasonable suspicion it could be acceptable in OU play. In the case of Ho-oh, I'm not certain it meets that standard. I think most of us would agree that if Stealth Rock didn't exist, we wouldn't be having a discussion about the tiering status of Ho-oh. Most of us would agree that it would be uber given its movepool (fuck you Sacred Fire) and stats. Thus, the question is does Stealth Rock stripping 50% off Ho-oh warrant it to be tested. If going by the assumption that we only test if we have a reasonable suspicion that it could be acceptable in OU; I'd say no. Stealth Rock doesn't do enough to make me believe there is reasonable suspicion it could function in OU; and should every team be required to use Stealth Rock and use a Ghost to prevent Rapid Spin on every team? Ho-oh could severely hamper a team if it gets in before Stealth Rock gets up, early in a match this can be prevented by something like a Taunt Aerodactyl lead. If Ho-oh gets in before you can set-up Stealth Rock; it won't be a pretty picture. There's also Wish support to alleviate the Stealth Rock weakness and Wish Jirachi is an excellent defensive complement to Ho-oh! We have Rapid Spinners. Even a gimmicky option like Rapid Spin + Foresight Hitmontop to get around Ghosts wouldn't be terrible. I'd argue that Ho-oh is effective enough that Ho-oh would pick up the slack on the reduced use of Hitmontop's spot, but that's just an opinion (Moltres doesn't pick up enough slack for a team member like Hitmontop imo to make him viable like Ho-oh does). Finally, Ho-oh has access to Roost to alleviate Stealth Rock and he can easily come in on a lot of top Pokemon like Scizor, Heatran, Metagross Infernape (nobody runs Stone Edge lol), Jirachi, Blissey, etc. and net himself a free Roost. Given all those viable ways to get around the Stealth Rock issue I don't think Ho-oh is burdened enough to be considered viable in OU.
I'm not opposed necessarily to testing, but if given the option I'd prefer he not be tested. Interesting to note, a Life Orb Sacred Fire / Earthquake / Thunderbolt / Overheat or Roost set could single-handedly ruin stall as a viable option.
In the case of Deoxys-D, I do believe he would ultimately be found uber due to the huge amount of support options available to it. However, the arguments for why it may not be uber (lack of offensive power, mediocre defensive typing etc.) are more difficult for me to counter (as opposed to the case of Ho-oh) so if anything, it should be the next Pokemon Suspect.
That is all.
Someone of some authority made Ho-oh a suspect based on the discussions we've had in the past; I think that's all I need to know in order to ask you to please give me some good reasons to change Smogon's current position on this, and certainly to justify your stance that "Stealth Rock is the only reason, therefore why test it?" In fact, that sort of argument isn't even exclusive to Ho-oh and I definitely remember similar arguments being made about "Scizor Bullet Punch" and similar, so this is probably a good thing to talk about even if we decide to start up another full-blown Ho-oh discussion to reassess its status or something.
If you can apply your Stealth Rock argument using the Uber Characteristics then there should be no need to cop out and "cancel" the test; we can just vote on it like any suspect. If you can't, then you either need to come up with a really good reason that our current Characteristics are insufficient, or accept that your argument doesn't apply (which still shouldn't be that big of a deal considering that Ho-oh isn't exactly expected to be tame with or without Stealth Rock).Syberia said:
edit: just editing to say that I agree with this:
Caelum said:
That's nice, but what's the solid theorymon evidence that Ho-oh will do fine in OU before we waste a month on this process?
Just because there was disagreement does not mean we need to test it. There was enough disagreement over shit like Stealth Rock. What's needed a convincing reason why Ho-oh should be tested - "just because we can't agree to it" isn't a solid reason, and by that reason we should also test Stealth Rock, Salamence, test Mew, whatever, because I'm sure we can find enough dissenters to argue it.
Just because there was disagreement does not mean we need to test it. There was enough disagreement over shit like Stealth Rock. What's needed a convincing reason why Ho-oh should be tested - "just because we can't agree to it" isn't a solid reason, and by that reason we should also test Stealth Rock, Salamence, test Mew, whatever, because I'm sure we can find enough dissenters to argue it.