Voted for EM's Neglected Ability. If it's something like Magic Guard, as was mentioned earlier, it could even make it's way into a viable Hail-team member (a sort of backdoor Snowdra.) Other abilities could also be interesting applications as well (as mentioned Shield Dust, Solar Power, and Simple are all interesting as well.)
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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 1 - Concept Poll 2
- Thread starter cyberzero
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There really isn't much more we can learn about making a Hail sweeper. We learned how to make a Hail sweeper that is really good, and one that... isn't. Do we absolutely need to dedicate our time to making one in between? No, just like we don't need to dedicate our time learning about an ability of our choosing.
I just don't get why having free reign on typing is such a horrible thing for you people. I could have a pokemon with Shield Dust with Grass/Ground typing or Elec/Dragon typing or whatever and it wouldn't matter to me as long as that typing had potential to support that ability. That's practically the only thing that goes before ability (besides... stat build, which while important to do, doesn't break the pokemon).
Chose neglected ability. Would be interesting to see Cute Charm get some use... Perhaps the Pokemon can use moves that assist the ability without relying on it or abusing it.
(Similar to Pressure + Protect + Wish + Toxic all helping each other, but all good on their own in an independent way)
(Similar to Pressure + Protect + Wish + Toxic all helping each other, but all good on their own in an independent way)
Neglected Ability.
Infinite Attack is passable as well. I don't like the other concepts, point blank. Para-bus is directly based off of manipulating an artificial metagame that has nothing to do with the actual metagame, which goes directly against the mission statement of CAP.
Infinite Attack is passable as well. I don't like the other concepts, point blank. Para-bus is directly based off of manipulating an artificial metagame that has nothing to do with the actual metagame, which goes directly against the mission statement of CAP.
Neglected Ability for the same reasons as last poll.
Neglected Ability doesn't have over 50% of the votes so Kingdra in the Snow still has a chance to make it to the final poll.
Guys, open your eyes.
Most of you have voted Neglected Ability in the first place because they have an accurate idea of what sort of CAP they dream. Someone wants an Electric/Dragon Static bulky attacker, the other one wants a Shiled Dust Grass special sweeper and so on.
Well, to all of you, this is probably no going to happen.
Only one idea can be chosen, so most of you will end being unsatisfied. But not before having turned CAP into a mess just like EVO was. And how it could be different? Everyone will throw in the ability they like the most. At least, in previous CAPs, the proposal of an ability should have been justified by the role of the CAP itself. But when the concept is the ability? I already foresee a concept assessment thread - yeah, we do not need to wait the Ability discussion thread for that - filled with a crazy number of suggestion, from Cute Charm to Forecast to Static to Sticky Hold...
So far, the only arguments I have read against Kingdra in the Snow are:
1) it's a limited concept
2) will bring to a surge of Tyranitar, Scizor, Stallrein etc...
3) it can't be successful for various reasons.
About the first issue, again, open your mind. Do not stereotypes overcome your creativity. There is a gazillon of possibilities to make a sweeper (balanced, offensive, physical, special), which - I can't stress it enough - will be very good even without Hail. Guys, how many of you use Kingdra exclusively under the rain? Not much. But how many of you need it when building a rain team? A lot, maybe all. That's the spirit of the concept.
Secondary, you assume that Tyranitar, scizor and Wallrein will be all over the place. What if our sweeper counters Tyranitar and Scizor? And about Walrein, the very reason I suggested this concept in the first place, was to stray from the tedious stall of Stallrein. If something, this idea would lead to less Tyranitar, Scizor, Walrein.
Who said it can't be successful if not Ice typed ? 120BP is not enough? What sort of BP has your Gyarados waterfall? And your scizor's X-Scissor? This thing can be very powerful even without the Ice typing. And even without going only - or at all - on the special spectrum. We need more creativity. And not only be stuck on Hail->Blizzard->Walrein->Stall
So, if you want CAP to become a total mess when everyone support their favorite "cool" idea, feel free to vote EM's Neglected Idea. Otherwise, stop and think for a second. Open your eyes
Most of you have voted Neglected Ability in the first place because they have an accurate idea of what sort of CAP they dream. Someone wants an Electric/Dragon Static bulky attacker, the other one wants a Shiled Dust Grass special sweeper and so on.
Well, to all of you, this is probably no going to happen.
Only one idea can be chosen, so most of you will end being unsatisfied. But not before having turned CAP into a mess just like EVO was. And how it could be different? Everyone will throw in the ability they like the most. At least, in previous CAPs, the proposal of an ability should have been justified by the role of the CAP itself. But when the concept is the ability? I already foresee a concept assessment thread - yeah, we do not need to wait the Ability discussion thread for that - filled with a crazy number of suggestion, from Cute Charm to Forecast to Static to Sticky Hold...
So far, the only arguments I have read against Kingdra in the Snow are:
1) it's a limited concept
2) will bring to a surge of Tyranitar, Scizor, Stallrein etc...
3) it can't be successful for various reasons.
About the first issue, again, open your mind. Do not stereotypes overcome your creativity. There is a gazillon of possibilities to make a sweeper (balanced, offensive, physical, special), which - I can't stress it enough - will be very good even without Hail. Guys, how many of you use Kingdra exclusively under the rain? Not much. But how many of you need it when building a rain team? A lot, maybe all. That's the spirit of the concept.
Secondary, you assume that Tyranitar, scizor and Wallrein will be all over the place. What if our sweeper counters Tyranitar and Scizor? And about Walrein, the very reason I suggested this concept in the first place, was to stray from the tedious stall of Stallrein. If something, this idea would lead to less Tyranitar, Scizor, Walrein.
Who said it can't be successful if not Ice typed ? 120BP is not enough? What sort of BP has your Gyarados waterfall? And your scizor's X-Scissor? This thing can be very powerful even without the Ice typing. And even without going only - or at all - on the special spectrum. We need more creativity. And not only be stuck on Hail->Blizzard->Walrein->Stall
So, if you want CAP to become a total mess when everyone support their favorite "cool" idea, feel free to vote EM's Neglected Idea. Otherwise, stop and think for a second. Open your eyes
I have to agree about Neglected Ability, and you pretty much summed up my initial thought better than I could (I would've addressed it next thread but meh). Sure we get an ability out of it but we only get 1 (or 2) to observe, leaving the concept incomplete really. Not a huge issue, but it's shallow and open ended.
But you're a little nuts with Snowdra. Your comment about using Kingdra in rain is not valid, as Rain isn't a permanent and easy to set up condition like Hail is; if it was, you best believe everyone would use Kingdra exclusively for that. The concept implied having offensive capabilities that are enhanced in the snow. Perfect Blizzard is far from enough to really take advantage of the snow, so I presume an ability would be in order. Sorry, but a custom ability to offensively abuse a permanent weather condition is mad crazy. There's a reason such abilities don't already exist for sandstorm / hail. And if it's not a snow-immune ability, it'll need ice typing to not get hailed on (which limits sweeping potential). Yes, what if it does counter Tyranitar? People don't run it and hail dominates (greeeeeeat). "Get creative." Well people did this with Garchomp and Garchomp got creative back. Your post came off as "so it's going to rape, deal with it." Sorry, I'd rather not.
You say everyone else is being closed minded but really you're being open yet blind. Permanent offensive weather abuse is over the top; there's a reason perma-rain/sun are banned.
Isn't that what most people do anyways?
EDIT: Rain is a burden; Hail is not. And in responce to your edit, those aren't offensive abusers. You're missing the primary wording in the concept. ANd my Garchomp mention has absolutely nothing to do with its ability or Sandstorm.
But you're a little nuts with Snowdra. Your comment about using Kingdra in rain is not valid, as Rain isn't a permanent and easy to set up condition like Hail is; if it was, you best believe everyone would use Kingdra exclusively for that. The concept implied having offensive capabilities that are enhanced in the snow. Perfect Blizzard is far from enough to really take advantage of the snow, so I presume an ability would be in order. Sorry, but a custom ability to offensively abuse a permanent weather condition is mad crazy. There's a reason such abilities don't already exist for sandstorm / hail. And if it's not a snow-immune ability, it'll need ice typing to not get hailed on (which limits sweeping potential). Yes, what if it does counter Tyranitar? People don't run it and hail dominates (greeeeeeat). "Get creative." Well people did this with Garchomp and Garchomp got creative back. Your post came off as "so it's going to rape, deal with it." Sorry, I'd rather not.
You say everyone else is being closed minded but really you're being open yet blind. Permanent offensive weather abuse is over the top; there's a reason perma-rain/sun are banned.
Isn't that what most people do anyways?
EDIT: Rain is a burden; Hail is not. And in responce to your edit, those aren't offensive abusers. You're missing the primary wording in the concept. ANd my Garchomp mention has absolutely nothing to do with its ability or Sandstorm.
Again, you are just assuming "Snowdra" will be as much powerful as Kingdra. It inherently can't. For example, we could give it a boost in power or in speed with a custom ability, but we can't give it both. Kingdra, thanks to water STAB, "has" both. If it counters Tyranitar it means only that Tyranitar can't come in to his own will, but will have to be more careful (just like his nature lol). Hail will not dominate if "Snowdra" wins. It will become more diversified. Or are you telling me that Rain dominates because of Kingdra?
EDIT: If permanent weather abusing would be over the top, things like Cradily, Curse Regirock and Stallrein would be broken. Of course, if we push it too far it may be broken but we may very well fidnd a balance. Oh, and, about Garchomp, it would have been deemed Uber even if it's ability would have been Pressure or Cute Charm or Swarm
EDIT: I never said "it's going to rape. Deal with it" Do not even try to strawman the hell out of me. I said that it could be a viable sweeper with or without the Hail, and that it could help Hail teams to stray a bit from stall. Guys, if you hate hail that's one thing. But do not come here and find a billion excuses - I had to prove false already a lot. Just saying "I do not want Snowdra because I hate Hail" is much more honest. And about the weather abusing, I said those examples just to show that what makes a Pokèmon broken is not that he abuses permaweather, but how much he abuses it. There is a limit before which we could create a very viable sweepers. But since I don't think that, even with thousands or words, I will never overcome the hatred towards Hail in general of most of you, I'll stop here. Vote as you like.
EM's Neglected Ability - pivot point just looks hard!
Unaware has already been "explored" by Argonaut. Just a minor nitpick
There is nothing in particular stopping us from making this Dark/Ground with Snow Cloak, and simply pumping its SA up to Alakazam-esque levels to make Blizzard viable without STAB. In fact on such a pokemon it would provide valuable coverage combined with STAB Earth Power and an odd-ball hitting STAB Dark Pulse.
Sand Veil is merely what broke the camel's back. If CB Mamoswine could come in and Ice Shard with 100% hit certainty, or Regice could swiftly switch in and be guaranteed to break a Sub with Ice Beam Garchomp would not been nearly as powerful or hated.
The direction this is going in strikes me of pre-adjustment Syclant. We already have a CAP that enjoys Hail weather and can sweep. Why would we need another one? Just so that after playtesting we'll have teams composed entirely of Abomasnow, "Snowdra," Scylant, Stallrein, Heatran, and Tentacruel?
It doesn't necessarily need 130+ SpAtk to work. Blizzard from Rotom-f dents quite a bit even without STAB and with "only" 106 Sp Atk.
Yeah, but that alone does not even remotely push towards Uber, otherwise we would have a lot of people asking for Gliscor to be labelled as a Suspect.
I already explained why Syclant can't be considered as a "Hail sweeper", but I will repeat. Syclant's 4X Rock and Fire weakness needs too much support from a team in the way of resistances to make Abomasnow and friends ideal partners for him. Moreover, Syclant already has Compoundeyes, which is a much more practical choice than packing the big polar tree.
And yeah, there could be some hype in the beginning, but this is the same thing which happened with Manaphy at the beginning of his suspect test. All people went with Rain teams. But then they realize that Manaphy could function very well even on a standard team.
The point is: You do not need Rain because you want to use Manaphy. You need Manaphy because you want to use Rain (supposedly). On the same vein, you will not need Hail because you want to use Snowdra, but you will need Snowdra if you want to use Hail. Hope this distinction is clear.
Rotom-F has 105 Sp. Atk and its Blizzard is questionably useful. In Hail it can't really run a defensive set because it gets no Leftovers healing and additional Ice attacks aren't nearly as useful.
Read what I posted again. Nothing taken alone makes any one pokemon Uber. Had you bothered to exercise comprehension you would have understood that I said Sand Veil was the addition that pushed Garchomp over the edge, thus requiring it to be considered along with Garchomp's other factors.
And you mean the Gliscor who EITHER walls physical attacks OR outspeeds Base 100s? Who has an essentially useless second STAB, insufficiently powerful coverage, mediocre offensive capabilities, and a weakness to Water?
Unless you want a decent Hail sweeper immune to Rocks. And again, Pre-alteration Syclant had pumped offenses and the absurd 121 Speed. He was a nightmare in the beginning which is why he was toned down.
So we're making a Snowdra that doesn't actually need snow?
No team needs any one pokemon, though Hail obviously benefits from Abomasnow. People have already run successful Hail teams without the need for this CAP. We'd be filling a niche that needs no use, or we'll be inventing our 3rd Fighting or 2nd Steel type CAP on the basis Tyranitar craps all over hail.
Otherwise we're just creating a CAP that doesn't particularly mind facing Hail teams, likely leading to a decrease in their use.
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