NU Discussion Thread

[Naxte]

^That's precisely the reason why this sholdn't be call NU, since people such as yourself already have a concept of an NU tier being a place where you can use Pokemon like Yanma viably. However, that was just theory and guesswork, and quite clearly isn't what the tier actually is like, as can be seen. However, that doesn't mean that it will be horrible or bad; it just wasn't the kind of tier that was expected, given the name for it.

And while a "Luvdisc-tier" might be desirable to some, that doesn't mean that we shold competely give up on this NU. If there's enough demand for it, than lower tiers will continue to be made, where those Pokemon may begin to be viable. But just because such a tier is wanted, doesn't mean thie tier should be given up, at least not with a fair shot. Again, it my not may what was expected, but that doesn't mean it will wind up bad.

 

[Heysup]

^That's precisely the reason why this sholdn't be call NU, since people such as yourself already have a concept of an NU tier being a place where you can use Pokemon like Yanma viably. However, that was just theory and guesswork, and quite clearly isn't what the tier actually is like, as can be seen. However, that doesn't mean that it will be horrible or bad; it just wasn't the kind of tier that was expected, given the name for it.

And while a "Luvdisc-tier" might be desirable to some, that doesn't mean that we shold competely give up on this NU. If there's enough demand for it, than lower tiers will continue to be made, where those Pokemon may begin to be viable. But just because such a tier is wanted, doesn't mean thie tier should be given up, at least not with a fair shot. Again, it my not may what was expected, but that doesn't mean it will wind up bad.

I think we should definately stay away from this thread being about the naming of the tier, but about the metagame, because these posts are just pointless.

In any event, Snover+Glaceon is nearly unstoppable if used correctly, and this is without Walrein.

Sandslash is a great Spinner, as long as you take advantage of it's Attack and Speed with Swords Dance. I use Swords Dance/EQ/Stone Edge/Rapid Spin with Bulkyish+Fast EVs, and it works like a Charm.

I think my two MVPs are Choice Scarf Glaceon, and RestTalk Relicanth. I use Snover on my team JUST to give Glaceon an 100% accurate Blizzard (No Walrein, Toxic, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, etc). It OHKOs so much of the metagame with its base 130 Attack and 120 BP STAB move, while being able to take quite a beating from the Physical side with its base 110 defense.

With Relicanth, not even Tauros can 2HKO it with Earthquake, and Head Smash hits like a mack truck. Barely anything resists rock in this metagame that isnt thrown aside by a waterfall either. Max HP/Attack, Rest/Sleep Talk/Head Smash/Waterfall makes an incredible hit-taker while also dishing lots of hits back out.

Its hard to find a good Pokemon that resists fighting or Water though, I guess Snover helps.

 

[Pyromanic]

With Relicanth, not even Tauros can 2HKO it with Earthquake, and Head Smash hits like a mack truck. Barely anything resists rock in this metagame that isnt thrown aside by a waterfall either. Max HP/Attack, Rest/Sleep Talk/Head Smash/Waterfall makes an incredible hit-taker while also dishing lots of hits back out.

Meg, Leafeon and tangrowth?

 

[Heysup]

Meg, Leafeon and tangrowth?

They dont Resist Head Smash, and are all Glaceon bait.

They are pretty much the only things that can safely switch in too, but few of the "rock resists" can switch in that arent weak to waterfall.

 

[blasphemy1]

They dont Resist Head Smash, and are all Glaceon bait.

They are pretty much the only things that can safely switch in too, but few of the "rock resists" can switch in that arent weak to waterfall.

In my recent battles Bold Luxray has proven to be a solid switch into Relicanth, and can set up Light Screen, so Glaceon can't switch in for free. It easily 2HKOs with Thunderbolt, and ground types eat HP Grass/Toxic. Works wonderfully.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

Ah, NU reminds me of little cup in how very fast paced it is and how powerful sweepers out number walls.

Strong special attackers finally dont have to worry about a fat pink blob coming in to absorb the attack, so I see alot of them like NP Raichu, Glaceon, Entei, Manectric and Exeggutor. And if you have a fire attack youre golden since the best special walls are weak to fire

 

[A.P.]

It's not that they outnumber walls (they might, but not by much), but that they all have good SE attacks to hit them with.

 

[TheMantyke]

Ah, NU reminds me of little cup in how very fast paced it is and how powerful sweepers out number walls.

Strong special attackers finally dont have to worry about a fat pink blob coming in to absorb the attack, so I see alot of them like NP Raichu, Glaceon, Entei, Manectric and Exeggutor. And if you have a fire attack youre golden since the best special walls are weak to fire

In pretty much all metagames, the number of potentially leathel sweepers outnumber the number of walls, the walls just tend to be able to handle them.

Strong special attackers still have reice to worry about, and I've seen a few Slowkings trying to take on things like Entei and Flareon.

I personally believe that the more lethal threats in NU at the moments are the few fighting types allowed in NU. I've had trouble handling Medicham and Hitmonchan, but I luckily I've seen very few. Choice Banded Medicham in particular can take on the one pokemon that has a decent fighting against it: Dusclops. After a Stealth Rock switch in, Impish 252 Hp / 252 Defense Dusclops is 2KO'd by an Adamant Choice Banded Psycho Cut. If you wind up on the better side of the RNG, you don't even need Stealth Rocks up. Tangrowth is also 2KOd under those same conditions with Fire or Ice Punch. Sure, 80 base speed isn't much, but half of Nu is slower then him (that includes pretty much every defensive pokemon).

 

[Relictivity]

Meg, Leafeon and tangrowth?

Leafeon maybe...
Meg... nope, it will take >50%.
Tanengrowth you have to invest highly into defense and HP, in other words, in cannot be the mixed attacker set.

You also risk the Head Smash critting... for example, in OHKOd my Tanengrowth.

I'm so happy to see Relicanth getting used.

I was thinkin of running Bounce Relicanth with Leftovers to have some fun with some of the grases. Sure, it's not as powerful as Head Smash, but imagine the Leftovers you could recover by having them periodically have to switch out rather than hit you.

It occurs to me, all these so called "counters" are going to have trouble with the Rest Talk set (which in UU, should run more Defense or Special Defense because of lighter hits, making it a better wall)because they lose their 2HKO, especially in Sandstorm.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Gastrodon is naturally a good counter to most Relicanth, being able to avoid a 2HKO from even Choice Banded attacks, having access to reliable recovery, and the ability to hit back hard with STAB Earth Powers. Sandstorm immunity helps too. I guess Quagsire could also work well, but is reliant on ResTalk for recovery, which makes it more exploitable.

Still, Water / Rock STAB combo is ridiculously good in this metagame. The Rock STAB being 150 BP without drawback is the icing on the cake, what with such a shortage of Steel and Fighting types available. More practical ways of dealing with Relicanth are to pack plenty of Will-o-wisp, Reflect, Grass moves etc, whilst limiting the number of Rock weaks on the team. I guess the last one is a given condition in any D/P teambuilding process anyway, but it sure is harder in NU.

 

[Pyromanic]

Leafeon maybe...
Meg... nope, it will take >50%.
Tanengrowth you have to invest highly into defense and HP, in other words, in cannot be the mixed attacker set.

You also risk the Head Smash critting... for example, in OHKOd my Tanengrowth.

I'm so happy to see Relicanth getting used.

I was thinkin of running Bounce Relicanth with Leftovers to have some fun with some of the grases. Sure, it's not as powerful as Head Smash, but imagine the Leftovers you could recover by having them periodically have to switch out rather than hit you.

It occurs to me, all these so called "counters" are going to have trouble with the Rest Talk set (which in UU, should run more Defense or Special Defense because of lighter hits, making it a better wall)because they lose their 2HKO, especially in Sandstorm.

The chance of 2 head smashs hitting is only 64%, though it seems like 15%.

 

[Bologo]

I wonder if anyone's tried Zoom Lens on slower versions of Relicanth (ie. Not Rock Polish/Choice Scarf). It's pretty damn slow and bulky with the massive HP and Defense (+ Special Defense if Hippopotas is there), so it can easily take advantage of Zoom Lens raising accuracy by 20%. It can take care of the problems with Head Smash's accuracy by raising it to a decent 96% accuracy, and also lets it use Aqua Tail to its fullest potential giving it perfect accuracy.

 

[Relictivity]

Gastrodon is naturally a good counter to most Relicanth, being able to avoid a 2HKO from even Choice Banded attacks, having access to reliable recovery, and the ability to hit back hard with STAB Earth Powers. Sandstorm immunity helps too. I guess Quagsire could also work well, but is reliant on ResTalk for recovery, which makes it more exploitable.

Still, Water / Rock STAB combo is ridiculously good in this metagame. The Rock STAB being 150 BP without drawback is the icing on the cake, what with such a shortage of Steel and Fighting types available. More practical ways of dealing with Relicanth are to pack plenty of Will-o-wisp, Reflect, Grass moves etc, whilst limiting the number of Rock weaks on the team. I guess the last one is a given condition in any D/P teambuilding process anyway, but it sure is harder in NU.

Reflect, yes, Burn, no, because Rest Talk laughs at it. Will a Gastrodon's Earth Power 2HKO Relicanth in a sandstorm? If not then Gastrodon (and Quagsire which already does) will have problems with Rest Talk.

I agree, the main problem here is a lack of fightings - the only 2 ones many would use would be Hitmonchan and Machop. Medicham can be used to an extent, but lacks the defense to take Dark Attacks, which can be REALLY powerul in this enviroment, unless you have Regice.

Grass moves will definately be the downfall for Relicanth - that is Special Grass moves. Unfortunately, grass moves are usually pretty obvious, and users of them usually won't risk Relicanth staying in, so things like Exeggutor and Tanengrowth get free switch ins.

Accuracy definately is an issue for Relicanth, fortunately, it's just as much of an issue for Stone Edge users. I wonder when we will get a good, yet accurate physical rock move.

All I can say - Thank goodness both Relicanth and Rhydon have 2X grass weaknesses, else we would be stormed by them.

 

[Stagnant]

Just a few things...

• Last time I checked Zoom Lens hasn't been implemented on Shoddy.
• Quagsire would be my preferred choice against Relicanth due to type-ing and Water Absorb.
• RestTalk Torkoal is a decent spinner. Can take on Mixed Tangrowth, Glaceon, and a handful of other threats 1vs1 rather nicely.
• Articuno + Gastrodon/Quagsire form a decent walling combination. My preferred choice is Gastrodon+Articuno as they both have some self-recovery.

 

[Relictivity]

OK, I just checked, Gastrodon will get the 2HKO, but takes letha damage from CB Waterfall, there is a chance for a 2HKO (not 100%, just some chance) with 252 Defense EVs on Gastrodon with Stealth Rock down (respectively the same calcs I did for Relicanth vs Gastrodon, or else it could be not 2HKOd).

Quagsire has a minute chance to be 2HKOd from CB Head Smash if running full defense. It also fails to manage the 2HKO with Earth Power.

 

[Dr. Eyepatch]

Honestly, I have not found Dusclops to be all that wally. He can't switch into non-resisted attacks like his Evo can. He took about 60% from a Gastrodon's Surf...

Was that not my Gassy that did that..? ^_^;

I find Choice Band Relicanth to be a highly valuable member on my team. Head Smash 2HKO's Tangrowth, which is always nice to eliminate early (since my team has two pokémon x4 weak to Grass). Head Smash as they switch to it in an attempt to wall, Head Smash again for the KO.

 

[Ninetales]

For me, only RELIABLE Relicanth counter is Cursing Gastrodon. Being able to raise it's Defence and Attack with acces to instant recovery is cool. After 3-4 Curses he OHKOes Relicanth with EQ, while Relicanth struggles to do some real damage.

And for TangrIce combo my BPing Girafarig and Venomoth beats it anytime, anywhere. Venomoth easily comes on Power Whip and threatens to 2HKO Tangrowth with either STAB Bug Buzz or STAB Sludge Bomb. To beat Regice, he needs help from Girafarig, which main task is BP CMs to Venomoth. After few CMs Girafarig laughs at Regice attacks and can easily BP boosts to Venomoth which can start firing his Bug Buzzez.

To Naxte: You kinda misunderstood my last post. In it's first part i was talking about Pokemons like Medicham or Tauros that are just too strong for NU and (at least for me) should be UU. While writing second part i was pretty tired, so anything I wrote isn't something that i really wanted to write xD

 

[malomyotismon]

Seeeing, rampados, regice and salacking in Nu makes me sad for 3 reasons actually. 1)I think they are still decent choices for UU team and i think they merited more use.
2)Was it not only back in Ruby and sapphire slacking and regice were Ou it makes me sad to seee them fall like a ton of bricks and go from hero to zero but thats not really important,it's more on a personal note.
3) Nu just isn't the place for them there all too strong or too buky that posssible new tier is just beconing these guys into it.

Through I will it admit to using regice in my new team and he works a treat at sponging attacks. i am using the sleep talk set for eternal longlivity.

 

[Steinhauser]

I agree with Ninetales that SpA-passed Venomoth is a dangerous mofo. It is by far the most successful sweeper I've used on any team, in any tier, which is strange considering it takes several turns to set up. Personally I use -Spe Hypno to pass it NPs, which lets it get in without taking a hit most of the time. Very little can switch in on it at +2 SpA, and at +4 very little can even take a single hit. Because of its ability, it's the only BP recipient that can be scarved without screwing yourself. (Yanmega could do it too in UU I suppose.)

To Malomyotismon, you have to realise that if the Pokémon you mentioned are viable in UU, them being in NU doesn't make them any less so. (Although there must be a reason no one uses them in UU...) As for them being overpowering, that is precisely the point if the test: to weed out the problem Pokémon. So far none of the three you mentioned have proven close to being overpowered.

 

[TheMantyke]

Seeeing, rampados, regice and salacking in Nu makes me sad for 3 reasons actually. 1)I think they are still decent choices for UU team and i think they merited more use.
2)Was it not only back in Ruby and sapphire slacking and regice were Ou it makes me sad to seee them fall like a ton of bricks and go from hero to zero but thats not really important,it's more on a personal note.
3) Nu just isn't the place for them there all too strong or too buky that posssible new tier is just beconing these guys into it.

Through I will it admit to using regice in my new team and he works a treat at sponging attacks. i am using the sleep talk set for eternal longlivity.

Well, if you think they shouldn't be in NU, I'd try finding a really broken set with them and using it so the Pokemon are promoted up a tier. Until then, all the Pokemon you mentioned have truly proven themselves to be "Never Used". So far, I'd say the only thing that could possibly go up is Regice, but its turning into a nice niche Pokemon. I've also seen just a single Rampardos and no Slakings, so I doubt they'll go up too soon (although the metagame has JUST developed so I could be wrong).

Also agreeing with the Venomoth comment... Choice Specs Venomoth is reall cool, but +2 Venomoth is REALLY deadly.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Seeeing, rampados, regice and salacking in Nu makes me sad for 3 reasons actually. 1)I think they are still decent choices for UU team and i think they merited more use.
2)Was it not only back in Ruby and sapphire slacking and regice were Ou it makes me sad to seee them fall like a ton of bricks and go from hero to zero but thats not really important,it's more on a personal note.
3) Nu just isn't the place for them there all too strong or too buky that posssible new tier is just beconing these guys into it.

Through I will it admit to using regice in my new team and he works a treat at sponging attacks. i am using the sleep talk set for eternal longlivity.

So, you can still use these Pokemon in OU and UU. As a Tangrowth fan, I'm happy that I can use it to good effect in 3 tiers now.

Yeah, it may seem a bit weird that Slaking, Magneton, Regice, Rhydon, Tauros, Dusclops, all Pokemon that were OU in Advance at some point are now NU, but DP is VERY different to Advance, and we're calculating the tiers differently.

If you want your tier where you can play around with Magcargo, Luvdisc, Gastly, Delibird and others, then everybody needs to co-operate with the making of this tier, or we'll never get there.

 

[Sceats]

lol, you guys are talking about tangrowth getting owned , but if it manages to get sunnyday up then glaceon is owned by hp fire and relicanth gets hammered by solarbeam.

it also gets 2/3 health healed from synthesis

 

[Zeromus EG]

I found Exeggutor as one of the best Tangrowth counters.

Resists Power Whip and is immune to Leech Seed. The only way it can really be hurt by Tangrowth is Hidden Power. Exeggutor can then fight back with STAB Specs Psychic, HP [Fire] or even Leaf Storm (still 2HKOs even when resisted).

If it does get Sunny Day then you can hit it with your own HP [Fire] or just a STAB Psychic, seeing as Exeggutor also gets Chlorophyll and outspeeds Tangrowth by 5 base points.

Thanks to him I haven't had any trouble with Tangrowth at all, meaning Band Hitmonchan etc can happily sweep.

 

[panamaxis]

Has anyone tried stall yet? Seems interesting, regice / hypno, tangrowth, dusknoir, omastar, sandslash, something else.. seems pretty nice.

 

[Pyromanic]

2)Was it not only back in Ruby and sapphire slacking and regice were Ou it makes me sad to seee them fall like a ton of bricks and go from hero to zero but thats not really important,it's more on a personal note.

Tauros was the best thing in rby.