Prediction Based Stall

[Shur.tugal]

Team Overview:

Introduction: This is my first successful stall team that I created with my smogon tutor, Calciphoce, during the apprentice program. This team was built with the prospect that it should need as much prediction as possible to work successfully. Thus, we decided that we were not going to use Blissey as she takes out the prediction. (Which I wanted to work on) We started with my favourite pokémon, Zapdos and, after some deliberation, this is what we came up with.

Swampert@Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240HP / 216Def / 52SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
- Surf
- Roar
- Stealth Rock
- Rest​

Description: Swampert is my status absorber and an excellent lead, not only because he counters a lot of the common leads and isn’t weak to opposing Swamperts, but because it does not reveal what type of team this is, something that the classic Hippowdon always did, and still does. This is important because if my opponent straight away knows that this is a stall team they will instantly start thinking of ways to beat it.

He provides valuable Stealth Rock (the first part of my secondary damage) and phasing support. Rest is used to heal his HP and remove status. We decided that we wouldn’t use Sleep Talk as all his other moves are required.

Zapdos@Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252HP / 160Def / 96Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Thunder Bolt
- Roost​

Description: Zapdos is my Toxic staller and MVP. His role on the team is to simply counter common physical threats like Lucario and Scizor and stall for poison damage. The given speed EVs give him a surprising amount of speed that allows him to pull off Substitutes exceptionally well.

I run toxic on this set for a few reasons. First, it allows me to poison those pokémon that are immune to Toxic Spikes. And secondly, because he almost always comes in before Tentacruel does he can also spread some early poison to other pokes.

So apart from the obvious Roost, the only unexplained move is Thunderbolt. I chose this move for many reasons. Some obvious, some not. First, Thunderbolt gains a STAB bonus from Zapdos. Secondly, Thunderbolt will OHKO any Gyarados that I encounter. This is big because Gyarados is a big threat to this team and if I didn’t have Thunderbolt then I wouldn’t be able to force it out for SR damage. Lastly, Thunderbolt hits just about (if not everything) that I use Zapdos to counter. Mainly Lucario and Scizor.

Currently Testing Spiritomb
Mismagius@Lefties
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252HP / 252SDef / 6Spe
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
Perish Song
Will-O-Wisp
Shadow Ball
Substitute​

Description: Mismagus is my spin blocker and Perish Songer.

I chose Will-O-Wisp for two reasons. One, because Mismagius has very poor defences and is bait to strong physical sweepers, like Scizor, who are immediately shut down by Will-O-Wisp. Secondly, burn helps reduce the HP of pokémon who are immune to poison.
For the last slot, this was a tough decision. Substitute or Pain Split? I ended up choosing Substitute because, one, even without EV investment, Mismagius has a high speed stat. Two, it helps when stalling for poison or burn damage and three, because it makes Mismagius harder to take down.

Skarmory@Shed Shell
EVs: 252HP / 252Def / 6Atk
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252HP / 252Def / 6Atk
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Whirlwind​

Description: Skarmory provides the second part of my secondary damage. Spikes. Whirlwind is a must for this team as because I am relying so much on prediction the more secondary damage I inflict the better.

I decided to use Shed Shell over Leftovers, like many people do, so that I can escape from the clutches of Magnezone.

We maxed HP and Def because Skarmory shouldn’t be taking any special hits and this also forced me to predict even more about what move my opponent was going to use. We then just threw the remaining 6 into attack to give a very slight boost to brave Bird.

Latias@ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252HP / 194SDef / 64Spe (was 252HP / 252SDef / 6SAtk)
Timid Nature Nature (+Spe, -Atk) (was Calm)
- Wish
- Protect
- Dragon Pulse (was Draco Meteor)
- Trick​

Description: Latias is my main special wall, wish passer and is the teams trick taker. I chose to give Latias Wish and protect as they give me a way to heal Tentacruel and Mismagius. Protect is also a very reliable way to stall for poison damage.

Since Latias has a Choice Scarf she out-speeds non-scarfed Dragons (like Salamence) and OHKOs them with Draco Meteor. Draco Meteor is also a great way to finish off weakened pokémon.

Trick was chosen as the last move because the only other member of my team who can take a Scarf is Tentacruel and that’s only even if they are tricking scarf. Latias cripples many of her counters with the Scarf. Especially Scizor and Blissey. It works great on pokémon who have their own, non-scarf, choice item as I can then trick that to another one of my opponents pokémon that won’t like to receive it. Latias is my immediate switch in to leads that are most likely Trick leads, forcing them out.

Tentacruel@Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252HP / 136Def / 120Def
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin​

Description: Tentacruel provides the final part of my secondary damage. Toxic Spikes. I also needed a Rapid Spinner to spin away my opponents Spikes and Rocks so I added Rapid Spin on the moveset. Surf was a given as it gave me a check to Heatrans and Infernapes as well as general STAB.

The choice between Knock Off and Hidden Power Electric was a hard one. Originally I did decide on Knock Off but I was hardly ever using it and Gyarados is a very big threat to this team.

 

[Shur.tugal]

Team Building Process

Team Building Process:

We started out by using my favourite pokémon (Zapdos) and finding a set that would be appropriate for pure stall. We came up with:

Zapdos@Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252HP / 160 Def (or SDef) / 96 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Thunder Bolt
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Roost

Similar to the Sub Roost set in the Smogon analysis. This was the starting point for the team.

Then we stated the standard roles of a stall team and discussed possible pokemon that could be used to fill that spot. We started with Spikes and decided to chose Skarmory because Forretress lacks a recovery move and I don’t like using one pokemon to set up two different kinds of entry hazards. So the team was:

Zapdos
Skarmory

Next, we immediently added Tentacruel in. Tentacruel is an excellent Rapid Spinner and Toxic Spiker and is a given when Forretress isn’t being used. So, that made the team:

Zapdos
Skarmory
Tentacruel

The next time we meet, since we had decided not to use Blissey, we threw suggestions as to possible special walls that could be used. In the end, we chose Latias because she has access to Wish and Protect and has great special defence and HP stats.

Zapdos
Skarmory
Tentacruel
Latias

Then, we decided to pick a ghost that would be sued to block rapid spin. And lets face it, when your picking a ghost to use for a stall team, your options are limited to Gengar, Spiritomb, Rotom-A and Mismagius.

Originally, we were going to use one of the new Rotom forms with the sleep/talk set and made Zapdos specially defensive. However, when I was looking at Mismagius page in the analysis I discovered that he could learn Perish Song I immediately replaced Rotom for him and made Zapdos physically defensive.

Zapdos
Skarmory
Tentacruel
Latias
Mismagius

Lastly, we discussed pokémon that would be a good lead for the team. Since none of my other pokémon knows SR we needed a lead that does. Our first thought was Hippowdon, the classic stall lead. However, I’m not a fan of Hippo leads as Taunt users shut them down. This is made even worse because the two most common taunters, Aerodactyl and Azelf, are both immune to Earthquake. So I went on serebii and looked at what pokémon could learn Stealth Rock and be helpful to pure stall. That’s when it hit me. Swampert. Not only is Swampert a great lead but he has an excellent movepool. He immediently became the final member of the team.

Swampert
Zapdos
Skarmory
Mismagius
Latias
Tentacruel

So, that’s how the team all came together. If you have any questions please, don’t hesitate to ask.

 

[Shur.tugal]

Threat List

Threat List:
Since this team is based around prediction I don’t have any specific threat counters. I need to counter them by using prediction however, some pokémon do give this team trouble. They are listed below.

Breloom: Breloom is a real pain in the head for me. I use Swampert to absorb the Spore but after that is when I really need to think. Will he seed bomb, Sub or Focus Punch? Skarmory can handle the former two while Mismagius can handle the latter but it is the biggest threat to the team.

Gengar: Gengar hurts this team bad if I don’t get rid of it straight away. I usually bring Mismagius on anything but Shadow Ball, take the Shadow Ball, then OHKO back with my own Shadow Ball. It’s risky but it’s all I got. Latias can Draco Meteor it as well I suppose but it still hurts. A lot.

Gyarados: Gyarados is a major pain. If it has Ice Fang even Latias falls to him. I usually just use Skarmory and whirlwind him for SR damage or bring in Zapdos and thunderbolt him. Tentacruel can Hidden Power it but he hates Earthquakes.

Machamp: Machamp hurts just abut any team these days and mine is no exception. Mismagius can Will-O-Wisp the no guard ones allowing Zapdos to come in for the kill. The Guts ones are more of a problem. Skarm can Brave Bird it and Latias can Draco Meteor it but it still causes problem if I don’t predict correctly.

Rotom-C: Rotom-C is the most threating Rotom to this team. Why? Because it gets Leaf Storm to kit Swampert and Shadow Ball to hit my special walls. I usually just bring in Zapdos to Toxic stall it but the Special Defence drops from Shadow Ball hurt. Tentacruel can come in on a Shadow Ball then switch out to Zapdos but it’s not a good plan once they get wiff of it.


Closing Comments:
Overall, I fell that this team has been made to the best of my ability and it has been working really well apart from a few threats. (see threat list) I would like to keep to the theme of prediction stall so I won’t be using Blissey. Thank-you for taking the time to read this and I hope you enjoyed it.

 

[panamaxis]

Pain Split is definitely the better option on mismagius, drop substitute for it. I would personally just drop mismagius for a rotom forme, tyranitar is gonna hurt it like hell even when burned, especially considering you can't touch it back (after burning of course). Although this would leave you weaker to latias.

Huge salamence weakness, give swampert Ice Beam / Avalanche > Rest, rest isn't good with aromatherapy / heal bell support or sleeptalk.

Does Latias even outspeed base 100s with no speed and choice scarf? I'd personally use: Roar, Dragon Pulse, [Calm Mind, Recover] / [Wish / Protect]. I don't think Latias needs that much special defense anyway..a bit more in sp. atk or sp. def would help.

It seems to me that quite a bit of your team overlaps, It seems like you've dedicated three slots to stopping special threats, but I would just use a blissey, it's going to make winning so much easier, preferablly over tentacruel.

 

[Friar]

Thank you very much Shur.tugal, you made a stall team that isnt ObiStall! Usually stall RMT's are very very boring, but I enjoyed this one.

Latias is the first thing that jumps out at me. Salamence outspeeds you after a DD, and can OHKO you. Then you lose your primary Special wall. I guess this is where that "prediction" can come in handy, as you can go to Skarm to take the Outrage, but that may not always work out, as some players use Dragon Claw. For that reason you need to run Timid with 40 Ev's in speed. This puts you (I think) at 329 speed before factoring in the Scarf, so you can outrun all Mences, even after a DD. Also, Draco Meteor on a wall is not going to work out very well. Dragon Pulse will OHKO DD Mence after Stealth Rock damage with no investment, and you have solid answers to Flygon in Zapdos and Skarm, you just have to predict :) Although, Dragon Pulse does 85% to standard scarf Flygon, so you can revenge it after a bit of damage if need be. Dragon Pulse will also be a more appropriate attack for a wall like Latias, as it will be reliable unlike Draco Meteor and its -2 side effect.

The only other thing I see is that you could try out a Perish Trap MissyM, but Missy will draw Scizors like the plague, so Substitute Will O Wisp could well be the more effective set.

Good Luck with the team.

 

[Shur.tugal]

Pain Split is definitely the better option on mismagius, drop substitute for it. I would personally just drop mismagius for a rotom forme, tyranitar is gonna hurt it like hell even when burned, especially considering you can't touch it back (after burning of course). Although this would leave you weaker to latias.

Which Rotom form would you recommend?

Huge salamence weakness, give swampert Ice Beam / Avalanche > Rest, rest isn't good with aromatherapy / heal bell support or sleeptalk.

If I lose Rest on Swampert then I lose my only means to absorb status.

Does Latias even outspeed base 100s with no speed and choice scarf? I'd personally use: Roar, Dragon Pulse, [Calm Mind, Recover] / [Wish / Protect]. I don't think Latias needs that much special defense anyway..a bit more in sp. atk or sp. def would help.

I'll test out Roar, Dragon Pulse, CM and Wish on Latias, thanks. And did you mean speed over SDef in the sentance after the ellipses?

It seems to me that quite a bit of your team overlaps, It seems like you've dedicated three slots to stopping special threats, but I would just use a blissey, it's going to make winning so much easier, preferablly over tentacruel.

Well, this team is designed to need as much prediction as possible to win. Blissey would just remove that. Though if I desperately need to beat someone then I'll revamp the team and use a Blissey. Not on this version though. Thanks anyway.

Thank you very much Shur.tugal, you made a stall team that isnt ObiStall! Usually stall RMT's are very very boring, but I enjoyed this one.

Thank you.

Latias is the first thing that jumps out at me. Salamence outspeeds you after a DD, and can OHKO you. Then you lose your primary Special wall. I guess this is where that "prediction" can come in handy, as you can go to Skarm to take the Outrage, but that may not always work out, as some players use Dragon Claw. For that reason you need to run Timid with 40 Ev's in speed. This puts you (I think) at 329 speed before factoring in the Scarf, so you can outrun all Mences, even after a DD. Also, Draco Meteor on a wall is not going to work out very well. Dragon Pulse will OHKO DD Mence after Stealth Rock damage with no investment, and you have solid answers to Flygon in Zapdos and Skarm, you just have to predict :) Although, Dragon Pulse does 85% to standard scarf Flygon, so you can revenge it after a bit of damage if need be. Dragon Pulse will also be a more appropriate attack for a wall like Latias, as it will be reliable unlike Draco Meteor and its -2 side effect.

Thanks, I'll use the right amout of EVs to outspeed Mence after a DD. I'll also use Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor.

The only other thing I see is that you could try out a Perish Trap MissyM, but Missy will draw Scizors like the plague, so Substitute Will O Wisp could well be the more effective set.

Good Luck with the team.

I really don't think that the Trap set will be effective. And Substitute is a great move, especially on Mismagius as it allows her to take a physical hit, then Will-O-Wisp them if need be.

 

[panamaxis]

I'd suggest Rotom-H or Rotom-W, it doesn't matter too much, but you can scare off either Scizor or Tyranitar, by bluffing overheat / hydro pump (although I don't suggest you use either, probably discharge rest sleep talk shadow ball / willowisp).

Now Rotom can absorb status for you...

and yes, speed over special defense.

 

[Virtuoso]

Zapdos@Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252HP / 160Def / 96Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Thunder Bolt
- Roost​

Description: Zapdos is my Toxic staller and MVP. His role on the team is to simply counter common physical threats like Lucario and Scizor and stall for poison damage. The given speed EVs give him a surprising amount of speed that allows him to pull off Substitutes exceptionally well.

I run toxic on this set for a few reasons. First, it allows me to poison those pokémon that are immune to Toxic Spikes. And secondly, because he almost always comes in before Tentacruel does he can also spread some early poison to other pokes.

So apart from the obvious Roost, the only unexplained move is Thunderbolt. I chose this move for many reasons. Some obvious, some not. First, Thunderbolt gains a STAB bonus from Zapdos. Secondly, Thunderbolt will OHKO any Gyarados that I encounter. This is big because Gyarados is a big threat to this team and if I didn’t have Thunderbolt then I wouldn’t be able to force it out for SR damage. Lastly, Thunderbolt hits just about (if not everything) that I use Zapdos to counter. Mainly Lucario and Scizor.

If your main deal with this is to counter Lucario and Scizor I would definitely suggest Moltres > Zapdos.

Thread here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53423

Moltres has the better typing for a toxistall, and hits scizor and lucario for SE damage.

^just a thought.

 

[Shur.tugal]

I'll test out Rotom over Maggy. Thanks Pana. Since Rotoms are physically defensive, should I make Zapdos specially defensive to help with Gengar and the like?

If your main deal with this is to counter Lucario and Scizor I would definitely suggest Moltres > Zapdos.

Thread here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53423

Moltres has the better typing for a toxistall, and hits scizor and lucario for SE damage.

^just a thought.

I'll try out Moltres and see how it works. But I don't just use Zapdos to counter those two things. He is my main pokémon that I keep in battles to stall for poison and he is my fav poke. I will still try out Moltres. Thanks.

 

[Shur.tugal]

I've concluded that Moltres doesn't work on this team. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. I'm going to do another day of testing Rotom.

*Bump*

 

[SuperSimon]

Id say from looking at this team adn from battling it, Mismagius is your weakest link. I would consider running a support rotom. W-o-W, discharge, shadowball and HP-fighting/ Overheat. HP-Fighting so T-tar will think twice about switching in or Overheat to get rid of your scizor weakness.

 

[mtr]

I would suggest a Spiritomb over Mismagius. Your team is sort of weak to a Fire Blast possessing DDTar right now, as Swampert is your only check on it, and as I'm guessing that you want it to counter Mence, doing both and setting up rocks is a bit iffy.

I want to get rid of Zapdos for a Cresselia, but I know that your team is centered around the electric bird, and I personally love it as well. The counterargument is that a Cress would only add to a Ttar weakness, but Ttar counters Zapdos anyways, and uses it as set-up fodder.

However, if you went for a Cress and a Spiritomb w/ WoW or HP Fighting (from the Obistall page) you could handle a DDTar with the Ghost and a ton of Defense EV's.

Avalanche/Ice Beam>Rest, as panamaxis mentioned. But I would also replace Surf w/ EQ, just for Tyranitar (who's SpD is boosted in a sandstorm, but not his defense). It seems harsh, but Surf is useless.

In short, replace Surf w/ EQ. If nothing else, try a Rest-talk Spiritomb from the Obistall page. I'm not too familiar w/ Rotom, but Spiritomb's the only pokemon around with no weaknesses, and he's always been an asset to my teams.

 

[Shur.tugal]

I'll try out Spiritomb out as well. Rotom-W really hasn't been doing much for me.

I'll be using a move over Rest on Swampert if I use a rest/talker over Maggy.

Thanks for the tips guys.