Don't flame me for using the Flame Pokemon! (Moltres Discussion)

[Rurushu]

Huh, so what would you do if Lucario has stone edge? Zapdos CAN counter both sets with Timid 176 Speed. It's not like using a lot of speed was bad, because zapdos can outpseed some salameces AND 2HKO them, something that moltres can't do.

And about will o wisp...that means that moltres can't use his better set anymore (the toxicstall set) so why even bother with using him (and a spinner!) if you're not using him to his fullest potential?


EDIT: I just saw Objection post...lol why getting rid of the rock weakness isn't good?

 

[Rurushu]

We are talking about Moltres and how he is outclassed by Zapdos, right? Yeah, i guess we are.

But let me answer your off-topic question: Both Zapdos and Moltres need Roost (if they aren't scarfers) to be effective (you know, they are supposed to wall things, so you need a healing move!). Salamence, Staraptor and Gyarados (again, i can't understand your point, and now you're using something imaginary as a argument) usually are sweepers and don't need roost (but you can use roost in some sets, and guess what? getting rid of the rock weakness isn't bad).

 

[blasphemy1]

I really don't see why the notion of Moltres taking more from Stone Edge is even being discussed tbh. The things that typically run Stone Edge, Tyranitar, Rhyperior, Gyarados, and fighting types, typically have other moves that will wreck both of them. In the case of the two comparable sets(SubRoost), Tyranitar handles them both with Crunch, as one defense drop means they lose. Most smart Tyranitar users won't even bother wasting their Stone Edge's precious PP, so in the case of the most used Stone Edger, irrelevant. Rhyperior has STAB Earthquake, so on a predicted Roost they will both lose. Irrelevant. Gyarados has STAB Waterfall for Moltres, and almost always runs DD, meaning Zapdos will lose if it tries to switch in(nobody would switch Gyarados into either of them for fear of Will-o-Wisp/Thunderbolt, respectively). Irrelevant. Fighting types typically don't run Stone Edge, but when they do, they are typically CBers or Infernape, so neither of these pokemon can defeat them. In general, Zapdos's smaller weakness to Stone Edge isn't something to gloat about, since both of them lose to the common Stone Edger. Sure, we could theorymon and come up with a pokemon that runs Stone Edge and doesn't have a STAB to combat it with, but that is not real.

The ONLY things hampering Moltres from being OU and replacing Zapdos are A)4x Stealth Rock weakness, and B)Lower speed, which to be honest the latter doesn't really matter since Zapdos uses that speed specifically for SD Lucario, while Moltres doesn't need the speed provided SR isn't up. So, yes, under normal battling conditions where SR is up, Zapdos is probably always going to be better, however, when SR isn't up, Moltres is nearly a clone with better characteristics, notably the fire typing which allows it to take on Heatran, the only pokemon that takes no damage from Toxic + Flamethrower.

EDIT: Zapdos only makes up for his stupid duck-like design with good stat distribution and typing. Even then, he is inferior to Rotom-A with the exception of the Pursuit weak, which is offset by the lack of a Stealth Rock weakness, and Will-o-Wisp.

 

[Rurushu]

I really don't see why the notion of Moltres taking more from Stone Edge is even being discussed tbh. The things that typically run Stone Edge, Tyranitar, Rhyperior, Gyarados, and fighting types, typically have other moves that will wreck both of them. In the case of the two comparable sets(SubRoost), Tyranitar handles them both with Crunch, as one defense drop means they lose. Most smart Tyranitar users won't even bother wasting their Stone Edge's precious PP, so in the case of the most used Stone Edger, irrelevant. Rhyperior has STAB Earthquake, so on a predicted Roost they will both lose. Irrelevant. Gyarados has STAB Waterfall for Moltres, and almost always runs DD, meaning Zapdos will lose if it tries to switch in(nobody would switch Gyarados into either of them for fear of Will-o-Wisp/Thunderbolt, respectively). Irrelevant. Fighting types typically don't run Stone Edge, but when they do, they are typically CBers or Infernape, so neither of these pokemon can defeat them. In general, Zapdos's smaller weakness to Stone Edge isn't something to gloat about, since both of them lose to the common Stone Edger. Sure, we could theorymon and come up with a pokemon that runs Stone Edge and doesn't have a STAB to combat it with, but that is not real.

The ONLY things hampering Moltres from being OU and replacing Zapdos are A)4x Stealth Rock weakness, and B)Lower speed, which to be honest the latter doesn't really matter since Zapdos uses that speed specifically for SD Lucario, while Moltres doesn't need the speed provided SR isn't up. So, yes, under normal battling conditions where SR is up, Zapdos is probably always going to be better, however, when SR isn't up, Moltres is nearly a clone with better characteristics, notably the fire typing which allows it to take on Heatran, the only pokemon that takes no damage from Toxic + Flamethrower.

EDIT: Zapdos only makes up for his stupid duck-like design with good stat distribution and typing. Even then, he is inferior to Rotom-A with the exception of the Pursuit weak, which is offset by the lack of a Stealth Rock weakness, and Will-o-Wisp.

If you toxic a TTar on the switch, you have a pretty big chance of stalling him with zapdos, but you can't do that with moltres (you could probably stall Sedge PP with substitute, but you'll be left with a dead moltres).
The Rhyperior user could indeed win against zapdos, but that is a predicton war (you can predict a earthquake and sub). Zapdos can win, moltres can't. Gyarados is irrelevant because Zapdos and Moltres won't be roosting against him...moltres will run like a chicken and zapdos can just thunderbolt him to death. But you're right about the fighting types (you only forgot to mention Lucario!).

And wow, Zapdos isn't outclassed by Rotom, they counter similar things but each of them has different qualities.
Rotom can't Roost, so he needs to use 2 move slots (rest + sleep talk)
Rotom is, overall, weaker on the defensive side.
Rotom has less speed and satk.
Rotom can't use sub roost.
Zapdos can't spin block.
Zapdos is stealth rock weak.
Zapdos can't use will o wisp.
Zapdos only have one immunity.

A lot of differences, don't you think?

 

[blasphemy1]

If you toxic a TTar on the switch, you have a pretty big chance of stalling him with zapdos, but you can't do that with moltres (you could probably stall Sedge PP with substitute, but you'll be left with a dead moltres).
The Rhyperior user could indeed win against zapdos, but that is a predicton war (you can predict a earthquake and sub). Zapdos can win, moltres can't. Gyarados is irrelevant because Zapdos and Moltres won't be roosting against him...moltres will run like a chicken and zapdos can just thunderbolt him to death. But you're right about the fighting types (you only forgot to mention Lucario!).

And wow, Zapdos isn't outclassed by Rotom, they counter similar things but each of them has different qualities.
Rotom can't Roost, so he needs to use 2 move slots (rest + sleep talk)
Rotom is, overall, weaker on the defensive side.
Rotom has less speed and satk.
Rotom can't use sub roost.
Zapdos can't spin block.
Zapdos is stealth rock weak.
Zapdos can't use will o wisp.
Zapdos only have one immunity.

A lot of differences, don't you think?

First of all, like I said before, smart Tyranitar users will Crunch, which 90% of the time(pulling this number outta my ass) will prevail against BOTH of them, so the extra weakness is irrelevant. Neither Zapdos or Moltres should be stalling against Rhyperior, as a well predicted EQ could easily take you down, and Rock Polish variants will now outspeed you. Is it really worth losing your Lucario/Scizor check to stall a Rhyperior? Like I said before, Gyarados won't be switching into either of them, and if he switches into Moltres, it can be Toxiced, then you switch out. You would think the fear of Will-o-Wisp alone would deter people from switching in, but people are crazy.

Second of all, when making a team, I generally consider Rotom-A prior to Zapdos because of its lack of a Stealth Rock weakness, Will-o-Wisp, great dual STAB, and spin blocking capabilities. It really comes down to these things. Why do you need Roost when just about the only thing that threatens you(Pursuit) can be cut in half while sapping 12.5% of their health each turn? I can switch out of bad matchups, which is fine, but with Zapdos I will be losing 25% the next time I switchin. Rotom-A may have less HP than Zapdos, but its 7 useful resistances compensate for that. Since it DOES have access to Reflect/WoW, it can be much more useful for your team, while simultaneously taking less from physical sets. Rotom-A doesn't have Roost, but it can run a Substituting offensive set, which is something Zapdos lacks because Blissey's Seismic Toss breaks its Sub, and Ice Beam too. Overall, when considering a team, Rotom-A is almost always a superior choice, whether Zapdos has a few perks or not.

 

[Tleilax]

I personally take Zapdos over Rotom-A 100% of the time because of the lack of Pursuit weakness and more reliable recovery that doesn't potentially get me set-up on. Burning is nice, but I like longevity in my walls.

Hence my problem with Moltres. He lacks longevity. He has to Roost as soon as he switches in just so he can come in again. Not good for anything, but especially not for something that's been argued against Zapdos as a Toxi-Staller. Assuming that Rocks will be off the field is a faulty assumption, considering the ease in which they are put down and that unless it's a suicide lead they can plunk them right back down again on a free turn. So, assuming Rocks are on the field, you switch in Moltres. Here you can either Sub or Roost. This gives them a switch to their Moltres counter. If you Roosted you can no Sub but could safely switch out. If you Subbed then you barely have enough HP to do it again, and if you Roost they break the Sub and it starts all over.

 

[blasphemy1]

I personally take Zapdos over Rotom-A 100% of the time because of the lack of Pursuit weakness and more reliable recovery that doesn't potentially get me set-up on. Burning is nice, but I like longevity in my walls.

Hence my problem with Moltres. He lacks longevity. He has to Roost as soon as he switches in just so he can come in again. Not good for anything, but especially not for something that's been argued against Zapdos as a Toxi-Staller. Assuming that Rocks will be off the field is a faulty assumption, considering the ease in which they are put down and that unless it's a suicide lead they can plunk them right back down again on a free turn. So, assuming Rocks are on the field, you switch in Moltres. Here you can either Sub or Roost. This gives them a switch to their Moltres counter. If you Roosted you can no Sub but could safely switch out. If you Subbed then you barely have enough HP to do it again, and if you Roost they break the Sub and it starts all over.

Automatically assuming rocks are up is a fallacy, I rarely see them up on my side, and if they are, something like Hitmontop can easily remove them, considering the number one anti-spinner is Rotom-A, who fails to 2HKO him with Thunderbolt-even if you use Rapid Spin as they switch in, you can use Foresight --> Rapid Spin, without being killed. I am tired of this double standard that if you are wasting your time Rapid Spinning, you could have been set up sweeping, yet how is that not the same issue for bulky leads like Swampert, who must come back in to set SR up again? Sure, Stealth Rock may seem more important, but what about when I bring my Gyarados in on your Swampert as he uses SR, and get a free set up? Surely, having 100% health and +1/1 Attack/Speed on a Gyarados is more beneficial than hitting my Lucario for 3.125%.

 

[ElCee]

I think the thread is missing the original question by going off on the Rapid Spin tangent(are we SERIOUSLY discussing Foresight Hitmontop?). The question is What does Moltres do that another Pokemon that does not REQUIRE Rapid Spin support can't do? Zapdos, unlike Moltres, is not forced to quite literally Roost or die on the next switch-in if rocks are up and it takes damage when it comes in. I really just haven't seen, by reading this thread, anything that Moltres does so much better than anything in OU that makes spinning rocks away absolutely mandatory(which Moltres' use more or less does).

EDIT: I didn't say you can't DISCUSS anything(nor is that my place), but that doesn't mean I have to take it seriously, either. Hitmontop has a lot of problems preventing it from being an effective OU spiiner; it no reliable recovery move to stop Rotom from wearing it down, gets screwed by Toxic Spikes(this is starting to sound like Donphan, and there's a reason he skates OU/UU each list), and he has to rely on Foresight to deal with Ghosts(please don't say 'But he can Toxic them!' because almost everything in the game can use Toxic). Please don't dedicate almost you rentire post to beingdefensive and accuse me of "telling you what not to say" and avoiding the actual question. All you gave me was...he counters SD Scizor slightly better(The vast majority of CB Scizors are just going to U-Turn you on the switch)?

(Also, I fail at proofreading).

 

[blasphemy1]

I think the thread is missing the original question by going off on the Rapid Spin tangent(are we SERIOUSLY discussing Foresight Hitmontop?). The question is What does Moltres do that another Pokemon that does not REQUIRE Rapid Spin support can't do? Zapdos, unlike Moltres, is not forced to quite literally Roost or die on the next switch-in if rocks are up and it takes damage when it comes in. I really just haven't seen, by reading this thread, anything that Moltres does so much better than anything in OU that makes spinning rocks away absolutely mandatory(which Moltres' use more or less does).

This tangent is directly related to the ONLY reason why people don't use Moltres as often-Rapid Spin. Please do not demean people by saying, "Are we SERIOUSLY discussing Foresight Hitmontop?" It doesn't help your case at all, and is irrelevant until you test it.

Assuming SR isn't up, by a numerous of ways (ie Anti-Lead Starmie, Foresight Hitmontop, ScarfLead Breloom, etc.) Moltres functions better as a Scizor counter than Zapdos, since it can Flamethrower it without the fear of Heatran switching in. Sure, call them gimmicks, but they DO work.

What I am trying to get at here is that you can't simply have theorymon to come in here and tell me what to/what not to discuss. Foresight Hitmontop DOES work, and until you tell me why it doesn't, I really see no thesis. -Read my last post before you respond why it IS a waste of 1-2 turns.

 

[Tleilax]

Foresight Hitmontop gets totally screwed over by most of the Ghosts, especially Rotom-A. All they have to do is Will-o-Wisp, and ta-da, you got rid of SR but completely lose out on doing anything else. If they don't switch in a Ghost when you use Foresight then you are in a LOT of trouble, because if they switch in, say a Salamence, you HAVE to switch, accomplishing absolutely nothing. Unless you have something with a priority attack capable of taking on Salamence, then Rapid Spin becomes impossible. There are too many Pokemon that come in too easily in Hitmontop and gain a free set-up, especially when they know it's going to spin. Starmie is a good Spinner, because it can actually hold it's own and continously come in. Foresight Hitmontop cannot, and requires two precious moveslots just to maybe Rapid Spin before being forced out.

The big kicker is that people aren't convinced that HAVING to run a spinner is worth it. Moltres counters some things better than Zapdos, but the opposit eis true as well, and without the huge SR weak. Getting in the spinner early on isn't always possible depending on the flow of the match, and being unable to safely send in Pokemon when needed is a huge handicap, one which Zapdos has far less of.

 

[blasphemy1]

From my perspective, Rotom-A hasn't been the slightest of problems. Sure, it cuts my durability and attack with Will-o-Wisp, but all too often after my team has gotten rid of the rocks, they don't set them up ever again. Teams with stuff like Taunt Gyarados/Taunt anything can abuse double switches and Flygon's U-Turn to scout for their Stealth Rocker to come back in, since many are named Swampert and Metagross, who like to absorb Outrages and OHKO back. Then Gyarados can come in and Taunt-if 'Gross explodes, so what? I just took out one of their Outrage absorbers and Stealth Rock, and typically the other steel is Scizor/Lucario, who is handled by Moltres.

I must be having a brain lapse-name one common pokemon Zapdos counters that Moltres can't(ignoring SR), and don't say bulky waters because Zapdos is typically used as a Scizor/Lucario counter, meaning he can't take Ice Beams too.

 

[ElCee]

I must be having a brain lapse-name one common pokemon Zapdos counters that Moltres can't(ignoring SR), and don't say bulky waters because Zapdos is typically used as a Scizor/Lucario counter, meaning he can't take Ice Beams too.

Putting aside the fact you completely deflected the question of what Moltres does better than Zapdos by demanding that I answer the reverse...

I guess you ARE having a brain-lapse. A user of an un-STABed Ice Beam needs 270 Special Attack to have any shot(I'm talking .03%) at 2HKOing 252 Hp/0 SpD Zapdos after Leftovers(This changes with Stealth Rock, obviously, but you threw it out of the equation). The only bulky water that gets close to that without a TON of SpA EVs and/or a positive SpA nature is Vaporeon, so I don't know where you got "Zapdos can't take Ice Beams from bulky waters". HP Ice can beat Gliscor(who is often EVed to outrun Ice Punch Lucario and therefore Moltres) who does semi-regularly carry Stone Edge. HP Grass can beat Swampert(Zapdos can come in on Surf/Hydro Pimp/Waterfall, Moltres can't). Even with no Special Defense EVs, Zapdos is never 2HKOed by Gengar's Shadow Ball, whereas Moltres is easily outsped 2HKOed by Thunderbolt(Gengar's second most common attack). It can stop offenive Gyarados without Stone Edge(a bit less than half of them) or BulkyGyara that have it. It can deal with Timid Magnezone(even Thunderbolt doesn't 2HKO).

(The tl;dr: Gliscor/Swampert, Gengar, Magnezone, some Gyarados, Milotic, Starmie, and most Vaporeon).

There's probably one or two I missed. I'm trying to avoid being rude, but the fact that you had to actually had to deflect the question posed to you by turning it around instead of acutally answering it says a lot.

 

[Rurushu]

I must be having a brain lapse-name one common pokemon Zapdos counters that Moltres can't(ignoring SR), and don't say bulky waters because Zapdos is typically used as a Scizor/Lucario counter, meaning he can't take Ice Beams too.

In today's metagame, you don't need to counter <pokémon> to be a effective check against them. Zapdos isn't a Vaporeon/swampert counter, but once he finds time to switch (if you misspredict, zapdos will still survive) zapdos will scare them with Thuderbolt/HP Grass, or set-up for the subroost (because they will probably switch). Moltres can't do that :/

And Foresight only proves how desperate the moltres user is, because he is a obvious gimmick only two moveslots only for the sake of moltres, when you could be running other useful moves (or even better, using another fighting type :/).
When you switch Hitmontop into a CB TTar, you would usually gain the upper hand and should probably cripple/hurt the opponent's team, but you will be using your free turn to rapid spin (or foresight if you predicted a ghost) and foresight (or rapid spin if you predicted in the early turn). Either way, you will be crippled by Rotom-a only to spin (and/or eat a thunderbolt). I can't see how this is viable if you're doing this only for the sake of a pokémon when there is another pokémon who can do almost the same things (and a lot more) without the need of spinning.

EDIT: i guess that some posts were deleted and now it looks like i double posted x_x

 

[franky]

2. The best Scizor counter

I don't think so. Two pokemon that could really handle it much better than Moltres is Rotom-O and Skarmory. Rotom-O defensively, it can take Pursuit and resist everything while threatening it with Will-O-Wisp or Overheat. Skarmory survives a Cb Super Power and Roost of the damage.

 

[mtr]

The Scizor counter job is fulfilled almost just as well by other pokemon, but Moltres is useful against Infernape and Heatran relative to that of Zapdos. Blaze-boosted Fire Blast does a crapload to Zapdos, but half as much to Moltres by virtue of it's type resist. The most that a specially based Mixape can do is HP Ice. Physical variants can Stone Edge, but these are easy to spot: look for Overheat or Swords Dance. Hopefully you still have Hippo alive, right?

The argument is that Tentacruel can do all this too, only fearing an Earthquake from Infernape. But does Tentacruel have instant recovery? It can Rapid Spin, but if you have a Forretress in support, this task is redundant anyways.

Against Heatran...Fire Blast from Scarf will 2HKO all but the most specially defensive Zapdos. Because of the type resist, Moltres walls Heatran and the pressure stalling fun begins.

But as with all UU pokemon, you have to be very careful about using them in OU. This guy should only be used if your stall team has a marked weakness to a Special Mixape, IMO. Otherwise, you are only doing yourself a disservice.

This thread has me excited about the possibility of Moltres on a stall team. I hope we can see a similar one for Forry, who is often overlooked for Skarmory.

 

[Tleilax]

Actually, unless SR is off the field Moltres cannot switch into Heatran. Against a standard Stall Moltres, Fire Blast from a Modest Max Special ScarfTran does 32-38% damage, 2HKOing after SR damage.

Granted, Zapdos cannot switch in either, but that's something neither can do reliably.

 

[mtr]

Actually, unless SR is off the field Moltres cannot switch into Heatran. Against a standard Stall Moltres, Fire Blast from a Modest Max Special ScarfTran does 32-38% damage, 2HKOing after SR damage.

Granted, Zapdos cannot switch in either, but that's something neither can do reliably.

Sorry, that's what I meant. The enthymeme is that with SR around, Moltres is a turd.

 

[Thorns]

If I gave a shit about SR I would use Yanmega a lot more. But I don't, and so I don't like running a lead that does nothing but stop rocks (which can be overcome by, you know, not using SR weak Pokemon) or using the terrible Rapid Spinners who have MUCH better things to do (Starmie). I have no doubt that Scizor is totally raped by Moltres, but that's why it has U-turn. And I agree with Zapdos being better at Toxic Stalling too.

And Moltres really has no niche at all. It's like Tangrowth - a seemingly great Pokemon that's ultimately outclassed (and with the SR weak).

 

[blasphemy1]

If I didn't give a shit about SR I would use Yanmega a lot more. But I do, and so I don't like running a lead that does nothing but stop rocks (which can be overcome by, you know, not using SR weak Pokemon) or using the terrible Rapid Spinners who have MUCH better things to do (Starmie). I have no doubt that Scizor is totally raped by Moltres, but that's why it has U-turn. And I agree with Zapdos being better at Toxic Stalling too.

And Moltres really has no niche at all. It's like Tangrowth - a seemingly great Pokemon that's ultimately outclassed (and with the SR weak).

Except Yanmega has 0 sweeping capabilities as long as they have Blissey, and it has no useful resistances other than fighting/ground. Saying you don't like Spinning to clear the field of rocks for Yanmega has nothing to do with Moltres-who is more useful than Yanmega from a TEAM perspective, and last time I checked a team consists of 6 different pokemon.

Besides that, when Stealth Rock is cleared, Moltres is able to take U-Turns (11.22% MAX), half of which is recovered by leftovers. I can't stress enough how easy Foresight Spinning Hitmontop pulls Rapid Spin off, but I guess if you all aren't willing to atleast try it and/or believe me that is just ignorance and you are missing out on a fantastic stall pokemon.

EDIT: Don't forget that most if not all stall teams are SD Lucario or MixApe weak, so being able to stop them is more useful than Zapdos who can be killed by a NP Fire Blast.

 

[ElCee]

You don't even know how much damage Zapdos takes from Ice Beam(something you could have calculated in 30 seconds), but you call everyone who doesn't buy into a garbage gimmick ignorant?

People have already explained why Hitmontop doesn't wor; if you didn't just cherry pick posts, you'd have seen that. Seriously, most of the five things you listed Hitmontop does in OU don't make sense. Run the calculations and you'll see Hitmontop is NOT an effective counter to SD Lucario(getting OHKOed 47% of the time isn't very reliable to me). "Use Toxic on Rotom-A" and "switch into Blissey". You know what else can use Toxic + Rapid Spin?

Delibird

Which, by your logic, no one can call bad because they haven't used it ..., but the fact that you actually cited the fact that something can use Toxic as a reason to use it shows extreme desperation.

Seriously, Hitmontop is an excellent Pokemon...in UU. He's there for a reason.

I probably would have just given up on this thread had I not been fairly insulted by the style blasphemy and others use; totally ignore EVERYTHING that proves them wrong that they can't dispute, and then call everyone ignorant. Great debate tactics. If you aren't going to address the fact that Rotom-A wears you down in just a couple times you come to spin because you have no recovery, or how you're going to deal with the +2/+2 Gyarados/Salamence that's sitting there after it came in on your Foresight, or what realistic purpose Hitmontop serves in OU besides "badly poisioning Rotom-A"(those ARE your words...) and making Tyranitar crap his pants(which Machamp and even Hariyama do), then don't whine about not being taken seriously. I'm theorymoning, yes. You're just making stuff up.

Aside from all this, you still managed to ignore the question of what Moltres does that Zapdos can't. I proved, as you asked, what Zapdos can handle that Moltres can't, but all you've done is ramble on and on about Moltres being really good at...taking slightly less from U-Turn than Zapdos and being able to stop MixApe(I'd go run calcs on Zapdos, but I think it's become obvious you could care less about the numbers, soo...).

 

[Tleilax]

Except Yanmega has 0 sweeping capabilities as long as they have Blissey, and it has no useful resistances other than fighting/ground. Saying you don't like Spinning to clear the field of rocks for Yanmega has nothing to do with Moltres-who is more useful than Yanmega from a TEAM perspective, and last time I checked a team consists of 6 different pokemon.

Besides that, when Stealth Rock is cleared, Moltres is able to take U-Turns (11.22% MAX), half of which is recovered by leftovers. I can't stress enough how easy Foresight Spinning Hitmontop pulls Rapid Spin off, but I guess if you all aren't willing to atleast try it and/or believe me that is just ignorance and you are missing out on a fantastic stall pokemon.

EDIT: Don't forget that most if not all stall teams are SD Lucario or MixApe weak, so being able to stop them is more useful than Zapdos who can be killed by a NP Fire Blast.

In YOUR OPINION Yanmega isn't as useful as Moltres. Much like your thoughts on Moltres and Hitmontop, what is good or not good on a team is up to debate and entirely based on team dynamics. If a team needs a late-game sweeper to mow down weakened teams without them being able to do much to stop it, Yanmega can fit the bill. Outright KOing or severely weakening the enemy team does just as much as ToxiStalling.

You keep saying WHEN SR is cleared. Enough of assuming it WILL be cleared. The flow of a match doesn't always go that way. If Infernape comes out BEFORE Hitmontop, how good is Moltres then? You can assume you will play around your opponent, but they can play around you too. As I have reiterated, incredibly strong Pokemon come in for free on Hitmontop, and there is absolutely nothing it can do. Something that Starmie has over other spinners is that it can actually do something about it. Nobody in their right minds would bring a Gyarados or Salamence in on Starmie without knowing EXACTLY what it's moveset is. Even Donphan can keep Salamence from setting up on it with Ice Shard. While Foresight Hitmontop means they can't simply use a Ghost to block you, it also means that you have spent an entire team slot JUST to spin and maybe stop Tyranitar. You are at the same time leaving yourself open to get swept as the enemy gets a free switch, something that you want to give your opponent as little as possible, because when dealing with the powerhouses available one free turn may be all it takes.

There is very little that Moltres counters that Zapdos can't counter also. Moltres may do some better, but if Zapdos can still do the job then why not use him? He's faster, so he can outrun more vital threats. He doesn't put pressure on a spinner to be in as soon as possible for him to do his job thanks to less of a SR weak. His electric typing hits Pokemon quite hard. Be more specific in what it takes on. Don't pretend like SR doesn't exist and will ALWAYS be off the field, because that simply will not be the case.

The burden of proof is on you. You're the one making the statement, which is that Moltres has qualities that make it stand out over it's peers. Telling us we are simply ignorant for what is a gimmicky idea is half-assed and not going to convince anybody. We have given reasoned arguments as to why we feel your ideas don't work. It's up to you to convince us, either through calculations, sound logic, or a good warstory showing the ideas in action. Don't expect us to take your word on it like it should mean something.

 

[Thorns]

Heh, made a grammatical error in my post.

Anyway, I believe that we've just about proven that Moltres requires too much support to use properly. At least Yanmega can WORK in a lead position (why, that's what it does best). Foresight Hitmontop is not even worthy of being called a gimmick. All other spinners are beaten down by every OU Ghost-type.

Moltres' only hope is to stop SR from going up in the first place. This isn't too hard to achieve, but if you use something like Scarf Breloom/Smeargle, Scarf Jirachi (good luck, only Azelf and Aerodactyl don't get rocks up) then YOU risk not setting up SR ASAP. For an offensive team containing Moltres, this is a huge issue. For a stall team containing Moltres, this isn't so much of a problem but stall already has Skarmory/Forretress and possibly even Rotom-a to combat Scizors.

 

[Darkmalice]

Heh, made a grammatical error in my post.

Anyway, I believe that we've just about proven that Moltres requires too much support to use properly. At least Yanmega can WORK in a lead position (why, that's what it does best). Foresight Hitmontop is not even worthy of being called a gimmick. All other spinners are beaten down by every OU Ghost-type.

Moltres' only hope is to stop SR from going up in the first place. This isn't too hard to achieve, but if you use something like Scarf Breloom/Smeargle, Scarf Jirachi (good luck, only Azelf and Aerodactyl don't get rocks up) then YOU risk not setting up SR ASAP. For an offensive team containing Moltres, this is a huge issue. For a stall team containing Moltres, this isn't so much of a problem but stall already has Skarmory/Forretress and possibly even Rotom-a to combat Scizors.

What about Scarf-Lead Moltres? Besides not getting hit by Stealth Rock, it beats the four most common leads - Metagross, Azelf, Jirachi and Infernape. (Azelf and Infernape will get SR up though).

 

[haunter]

What about Scarf-Lead Moltres? Besides not getting hit by Stealth Rock, it beats the four most common leads - Metagross, Azelf, Jirachi and Infernape. (Azelf and Infernape will get SR up though).

Yes, scarf-Moltres can be a decent lead, though suicide leads like Azelf or Infernape will still set up SR (unless you get a lucky air slash flinch) and Metagross\Jirachi will simply switch out and set up their rocks later.
However, when it switches out, it's actually a dead weight being able to switch in only twice (assuming that it has not taken any prior damage) and not having the chance to roost off SR damage.

 

[Objection]

All other spinners are beaten down by every OU Ghost-type.

Then how come I've beaten Gengar and Rotom-H with spinning Starmie? Besides, if spinners get beaten by ghost-types, you run something that beats ghost-types. In fact, you run something that beats ghost-types anyway. Having a known spinner on your team just makes luring these ghosts out easier. Foresight Hitmontop however is not the way to do it.

The thing is, virtually every UU pokemon and even a few NU pokemon can actually perform really well in OU play. However, all of these pokemon only fit certain playing styles (I'm not talking about offence or stall, which are types of team). There may be people who can't KO anything with Swords Dance Scizor to save their lives but can use Honchkrow extremely well. Someone who has trouble using Scarftran might find Ludicolo easier to use and more effective even without rain support. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and Moltres is a brilliant example of this, as has been proven by this thread.