Where exactly has this been proven, because to me, this thread has proven the exact opposite. And while I agree that a few (not "virtually every") UU and NU Pokemon can work well in OU, it comes down more to whether they fit in your team well, rather than whether or not you are "able to use them."
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Don't flame me for using the Flame Pokemon! (Moltres Discussion)
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Where exactly has this been proven, because to me, this thread has proven the exact opposite. And while I agree that a few (not "virtually every") UU and NU Pokemon can work well in OU, it comes down more to whether they fit in your team well, rather than whether or not you are "able to use them."
First of all, not everyone is saying Moltres is crap. A few people like blasphemy1 are defending it to the hilt. Secondly, it's more than just a few UU and NU pokemon that can work well in OU. If you want a list, I can PM you. Thirdly, while it does come down partly to whether or not they fit in your team, what's the point of having a team of 6 OU sweepers when you don't know how to effectively use any of them? The only exception is for people who are new to competitive battling because they won't know how to use anything.
Same about UU pokes in OU-- what is the point if they don't turn out to be effective? I don't get what you're getting at Objective. Note, I'm not saying UU pokes can't be effective, I was using Flygon and Empoleon long before they came up to OU. I'm just saying you're not making a point
I can't believe you're supporting blasphemy1 in your argument, when his own is so clearly flawed (he won't even respond to points made by ElCee for example, which I was quite anticipating). Whatever the number of Pokemon that work in OU isn't important, it was your latter point which I strongly disagree with. Not knowing how to use a Pokemon is something which only applies to new players. Once you've been playing Pokemon for a while you know how to use everything and how it's used. Whether or not you're successful using that Pokemon depends on how good you are at prediction, how cohesive your team is, etc. but definitely not whether or not you know how to use the Pokemon in question.
I'm not saying that blasphemy1's argument is good. In fact, I disagree about his points regarding Foresight Hitmontop. I'm saying he's arguing in favour of Moltres. Nothing more. Also, battling for a long time does not mean you know how to use everything. Yes, how well a pokemon functions does depend partly on how your team is built, but what happens when you come to use a pokemon you've never used before? You can't just read the Smogon analysis and immediately know how to use the pokemon effectively. That's like saying you can read a "How to draw manga" book and immediately be able to draw like a professional manga artist.
I don't have any problems with Moltres being used. I'm sure he can work to great capacity if supported correctly. However, I question if he's worth the support for the gains he gives. There has been very little evidence that he is worth using over Zapdos. He counters Infernape better, yes, and that could be worth something. However, that's been the only Pokemon pointed out that Zapdos consistently counters better than Zapdos. The burden of proof is on those supporting Moltres, and I haven't seen it yet.
I guess the reason I feel that Moltres is worth the support is because the support in question is one that I have become accustomed to. Not everybody is going to be used to using Rapid Spin, so for people who are unable or find it difficult to use a Rapid Spinner effectively, Zapdos is the better choice. However, what's to say that in such a case there isn't a better choice than both?
Also, about what Moltres counters better than Zapdos, what about Heatran? Moltres' ToxiStalling set can't touch it, but certainly a slightly more offensive set with any second attack that isn't 4x resisted by Heatran can come out on top.
Also, about what Moltres counters better than Zapdos, what about Heatran? Moltres' ToxiStalling set can't touch it, but certainly a slightly more offensive set with any second attack that isn't 4x resisted by Heatran can come out on top.
not with that toxic/f-thrower/sub-roost set it's not getting ahead of heatran. lol Or with that w-o-w that everyone else is touting. The only way Moltres can even think about touching heatran is with hidden power, and at the point where it's going that route it's already looking inferior to a bunch of other special sweepers, even charizard.
Oh but like every pokemon that comes under discussion, moltres can carry f-thrower / toxic / hidden power [ground] / w-0-w / substitute / roost / etc. all on one set. :P
I do think Moltres is a very formidable opponent, especially against offensive teams, but countering Heatran is not something it excels at and I have no idea why people keep touting this notion that it can. Sure it can take Fire Blasts and roost back, but outside trying to pressure stall, there's nothing it can really do to heatran, letting it switch out and next time, use Dragon Pulse/HP Electric on choiced sets or reset up stealth rocks on the support sets (or the support sets could just toxic on the expected switch in, which would make moltres the one to die).
Oh but like every pokemon that comes under discussion, moltres can carry f-thrower / toxic / hidden power [ground] / w-0-w / substitute / roost / etc. all on one set. :P
I do think Moltres is a very formidable opponent, especially against offensive teams, but countering Heatran is not something it excels at and I have no idea why people keep touting this notion that it can. Sure it can take Fire Blasts and roost back, but outside trying to pressure stall, there's nothing it can really do to heatran, letting it switch out and next time, use Dragon Pulse/HP Electric on choiced sets or reset up stealth rocks on the support sets (or the support sets could just toxic on the expected switch in, which would make moltres the one to die).
I said Moltres could counter Heatran, I didn't say it could stall it out with Toxic or Will-o-Wisp. In fact, I said that the Toxic stall set couldn't touch Heatran. Read my post again.
But what does Moltres do BETTER? Why does he deserve the support? He doesn't counter Heatran at all if SR is down, and as I say, I don't playing theorymon and assuming one can always get SR off the field before you need Moltres. Being able to take Mixape is pretty good, but as far as Heatran goes most teams will have a counter for him anyway, so it's not much of a feather in Moltres' cap if he can pull it off, which in most situations it's debatable.
So, tl;dr of the thread: what makes Moltres stand out? We know he CAN be good, but why should we take the risks using him presents? What does he bring to the table that others don't? And the biggie,is that even assuming SR is off the field (again, this should NEVER be assumed), what does he do that Zapdos can't? So far these haven't been really answered, just danced around.
Well then, if you disagree with blasphemy1's argument, why do you point it out in response to my statement "Where exactly has this been proven, because to me, this thread has proven the exact opposite." I'm asking you to show me proof in the thread that Moltres is viable and you point to blasphemy's argument; what do you expect me to conclude honestly?
And regarding the latter point: you're comparing two different things. What you've just described is that it takes (often a very short in my opinion but that's not the point) amount of time to acquaint yourself with using a new Pokemon.
Your initial point though was essentially that some people for the life of them can't use a Scarf Heatran or whatever it was, no matter how hard they try, and that they are simply better suited to using other Pokemon. And my response to this I gave above, which you subtly sidestepped by responding to something I never even said.
This has gone so far off topic, and honestly I'm getting sick of you just twisting my words to come up with arguments. I will only reply at this point if you actually respond to what I've said so far, not what want me to be saying.
I know, and I replied that offense-only moltres is basically Charizard, but crappier (and that's something considering charizard is already pretty crappy). It may have more special attack and defenses, but BAD speed for a sweeper and a horrible move pool make it far inferior to so many other special sweepers (including Zapdos).
I know you said "not toxic stall" but I mentioned it because if not "toxic stall" I really don't see moltres as OU worthy, that is its best set. Because that is the only set worth running, whether it can or cannot counter heatran with a different set-- running hidden power and then only if SR is not around-- is irrelevant.
Okay well first off I am sorry for not responding, I have been busy with school and such.
I honestly am not trying to change anyone's minds here, that is why my argumentation skills are so poor. I am merely defending pokemon who deserve a shot in OU and HAVE worked on my teams, whether you regard it or not.
Secondly, I am not saying all NU or UU pokemon are effective in OU, that is simply not the case. Raikou, although BL, isn't effective at all in OU, due to the presence of sandstorm, Blissey, and defensive Tyranitar ruining his sweeping opportunities, while any Choice set can automatically be counted as inferior to Jolteon, as higher speed and Baton Pass are all that really matters. However, there are SOME pokemon I am willing to argue for, one of them includes Moltres, and another Torterra.
This argument seems to be going nowhere, and I could honestly care less if you all refuse to use Moltres, that is your loss, and I suppose my future teams will be unexpected for using such "radically" unorthodox pokemon.
I honestly am not trying to change anyone's minds here, that is why my argumentation skills are so poor. I am merely defending pokemon who deserve a shot in OU and HAVE worked on my teams, whether you regard it or not.
Secondly, I am not saying all NU or UU pokemon are effective in OU, that is simply not the case. Raikou, although BL, isn't effective at all in OU, due to the presence of sandstorm, Blissey, and defensive Tyranitar ruining his sweeping opportunities, while any Choice set can automatically be counted as inferior to Jolteon, as higher speed and Baton Pass are all that really matters. However, there are SOME pokemon I am willing to argue for, one of them includes Moltres, and another Torterra.
This argument seems to be going nowhere, and I could honestly care less if you all refuse to use Moltres, that is your loss, and I suppose my future teams will be unexpected for using such "radically" unorthodox pokemon.
Nah, any battler worth his salt knows what sub-stall moltres is capable of, even if its rare. It's just that much of a bitch if it can find the chance to get going. :|
I know that this is off topic but this is completely false, subCM raikou actually can work really well in ou, he sets up all over non-seismic toss bliss, and is one of the best switch ins in the game to bulky waters. I've never used choice sets but he does have a lot of bulk over jolteon.
I know I am responding to a post that was posted a while ago but, PM me a list of UUs and NUs that can function BETTER than a OU in OU without creating something like being able to PP stall Vaporeon.
EDIT: I prefer Raikou to Jolteon due to better bulk and Sp. Atk. There isn't really anything that important in that speed range.
A lot of bulky waters(or many I have encountered recently) are starting to run Toxic, that way they can force out other bulky waters and Celebi, or atleast make the former rest earlier than intended. An example of this is Vaporeon, who even without HP Electric, can beat non-Taunting Gyarados with Wish/Toxic and Protect.
Sure, Raikou has its advantages over Jolteon, mainly the ability to survive CB TTar's Pursuits(when Jolteon is stuck into a move, not BP) and CB Scizor's Bullet Punches, but Jolteon has Volt Absorb, which is amazing for absorbing Thunder Waves from the likes of Celebi, who doesn't do shit with Grass Knot due to Jolteon's decent special defense and low weight. This combined with access to Baton Pass and higher speed(speed ties with Exploding Azelfs ARE annoying) makes Jolteon a preferrable choice over Raikou imo.
EDIT: Note, NO team support will allow Raikou to gain these distinct advantages that Jolteon has, whereas Moltres just needs some spin support to automatically make a better Scizor counter. Basically what I am saying is, if you use choice Raikou instead of Jolteon, then you shouldn't be telling me Moltres is inferior.
Sure, Raikou has its advantages over Jolteon, mainly the ability to survive CB TTar's Pursuits(when Jolteon is stuck into a move, not BP) and CB Scizor's Bullet Punches, but Jolteon has Volt Absorb, which is amazing for absorbing Thunder Waves from the likes of Celebi, who doesn't do shit with Grass Knot due to Jolteon's decent special defense and low weight. This combined with access to Baton Pass and higher speed(speed ties with Exploding Azelfs ARE annoying) makes Jolteon a preferrable choice over Raikou imo.
EDIT: Note, NO team support will allow Raikou to gain these distinct advantages that Jolteon has, whereas Moltres just needs some spin support to automatically make a better Scizor counter. Basically what I am saying is, if you use choice Raikou instead of Jolteon, then you shouldn't be telling me Moltres is inferior.
How is he a better Scizor counter? Zapdos still KOs with Heat Wave, and has similar resistance to it's attacks. The only thing Moltres has is that it retains resistance to U-turn while Roosting. Again, as I keep repeating, actually tell us what makes it stand out rather than just saying it's good. Give us calculations, a war story, anything.
Raikou and Jolteon fill entirely different roles, and can't eve be compared in the slightest. All they have in common is being electric types on the special side of the attack spectrum. For someone asking for tolerance of less-than-ideal strategies, you're quick to call other things inferior.
But WHAT does it outspeed. There is NOTHING significant except adamant gyra.
Thunder wave isn't as common as it was, now that Bissey normally has toxic. Azelf is normally a suicide lead, AKA dead early. Raikou has a VIABLE CM set to beat blissey with sub.
I said that one man's trash is another man's treasure and Moltres is an example of this (ie, some people like him, some people hate him), and this has been proven in this thread. It doesn't matter if the arguments are good. The point is, blasphemy1 is in favour of using Moltres whereas the vast majority of people are against using him, which is what I said in the first place.
I have been using Moltres in OU for a while, and it really is good. It provides a counter to... Heatran, Lucario, Infernape, and Scizor. Off the top of my head, Moltres is the only Pokemon that can do this.
Hell, even with Stealth Rock up, it still counters Heatran and Scizor.
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 188 HP/164 Def/156 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Will-o-wisp
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Roost
Is what I used. Has the bulk to take everything it needs to, but has the Speed to let it counter Lucario. Will-o-wisp means it breaks stuff down oh so easily.
I don't really see how Hitmontop is outclassed. With access to Rapid Spin and Intimidate, Hitmontop is straight away different from every other Fighting type. It beats a lot of the stuff Moltres would switch out of, namely Tyranitar.
Hell, even with Stealth Rock up, it still counters Heatran and Scizor.
Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 188 HP/164 Def/156 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Will-o-wisp
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Roost
Is what I used. Has the bulk to take everything it needs to, but has the Speed to let it counter Lucario. Will-o-wisp means it breaks stuff down oh so easily.
I don't really see how Hitmontop is outclassed. With access to Rapid Spin and Intimidate, Hitmontop is straight away different from every other Fighting type. It beats a lot of the stuff Moltres would switch out of, namely Tyranitar.
The 4x resistance to U-Turn helps, a lot, along with the better defense(90 > 85). Moltres is 100% a better Scizor counter when rocks aren't up. I thought the OP addressed how Moltres is superior as a Scizor counter than Zapdos already? Higher defense and half the damage that Zapdos takes from U-Turn. Does it really take calculations to prove to you that a 4x resisted move with higher defense is going to do less than that same move, yet 2x resisted againsted a pokemon with less defense?
Raikou and Jolteon... don't exactly perform entirely different roles and they can be compared. When making a team, you might ask yourself, who should I use? Jirachi, or Metagross? Typically, you will find yourself only using one of them, simply because they have redundant typing and share common weaknesses. The same thing holds true for Jolteon or Raikou-both of them are a ground weakness. Sure, Raikou can beat WishBliss, however, more and more Blissey are reverting back to ST and a Calm nature, for SubCM Latias.
Don't try to make me sound like a hypocrite, Moltres fits into many OU teams currently(basically any team with Salamence can use a spinner), and no other pokemon fills the niche of countering MixApe, Heatran, Lucario, and Scizor. Meanwhile, Raikou must compete with SubCM Jirachi and SubCM Latias, who are superior sweepers, or Jolteon, who is more appropriate for a choice item given its huge speed and Baton Pass. Many teams love the ability to outspeed Adamant Gyarados after a DD, where a Raikou would simply die to Earthquake. There are so many distinct advantages that Jolteon has over Raikou, meanwhile, it is evident, that once you can get rid of Stealth Rock, Moltres is more useful(in most cases) than Zapdos, since many of the teams I have seen Zapdos on also run CeleTran, meaning waters aren't an issue anyways.
EDIT: What are the calcs for Naive Heatran, since that is typically the nature found on him iirc.
What about Naive or Hasty Scarftran? I thought those were the more common ones.
The truth is, when comparing OUs, UUs and maybe a few NUs, you'll find that there is never one pokemon that is better in every aspect.
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