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How to Beat Stall-Discussion

I have one thing to say. Where is Infernape? Now I have some more things to say:

All-Out-Attacking Mixape

Infernape may be a stall team's biggest threat. It can OHKO most members with its great STAB. Thanks to Grass Knot it can get rid of Swampert and Hippowdon aswell, and with ThunderPunch or Hidden Power Electric in the last slot, Gyarados isn't much of a problem.
 
Bobius said:
You appear to have missed one of the greatest CM'ers in the game - Clefable.

Immunity to spikes, sandstorm, stealth rock and toxic spikes make Clefable a stall teams worst enemy.
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Clefable in general is stall's worst enemy. It should be on the list, since magic guard makes the main point of stall useless and it can Trick, Encore, Softboiled, CM, Cosmic Power, Belly Drum ect.
 
I used the standard Stall Team and it has a hard time dealing with Togekiss after it drops 1 Nasty Plot. Unless your running a Scarf Rotom, your going to have a hard time dealing with it. Togekiss can perform a combination of one or two Air Slash and get the flinches, then finish off with Aura Sphere on Blissey. Tentacruel would be your second instinct but it has a hard time taking it down with Surf due to incredible bulk. It's chance of attacking is slow also due to Air Slash's flinch accuracy.
 
Jesus, SpecsTran really does a lot to stall teams, look at these calculations:

[FF Fire Blast vs 0/176 Blissey] 591 Atk vs 386 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 297 - 349 (45.62% - 53.61%) 93.29% to 2HKO (with Leftovers + SR).

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/0 Vaporeon] 591 Atk vs 226 Def & 464 HP (120 Base Power): 252 - 297 (54.31% - 64.01%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/0 Hippowdon] 591 Atk vs 180 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 316 - 372 (75.24% - 88.57%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 240/0 Swampert] 591 Atk vs 216 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 263 - 310 (65.10% - 76.73%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/136 Tentacruel] 591 Atk vs 343 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 165 - 195 (45.33% - 53.57%) 92.11% chance to 2HKO (factoring SR + Leftovers).

The only things are:
- Where are you going to get a Flash Fire boost? The ones off of the top of my head are Blissey's Flamethrower and Celebi's HP Fire..
- You can only hit the likes of Tentacruel and Vaporeon switching in; but most of the time you'll be locked into FF Fire Blast anyway: BUT, it means SpecsTran alone on a team without a Fire boost still gets splashed around with surf, making it not really reliable.
 
Franklin said:
Jesus, SpecsTran really does a lot to stall teams, look at these calculations:

[FF Fire Blast vs 0/176 Blissey] 591 Atk vs 386 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 297 - 349 (45.62% - 53.61%) 93.29% to 2HKO (with Leftovers + SR).

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/0 Vaporeon] 591 Atk vs 226 Def & 464 HP (120 Base Power): 252 - 297 (54.31% - 64.01%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/0 Hippowdon] 591 Atk vs 180 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 316 - 372 (75.24% - 88.57%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 240/0 Swampert] 591 Atk vs 216 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 263 - 310 (65.10% - 76.73%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/136 Tentacruel] 591 Atk vs 343 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 165 - 195 (45.33% - 53.57%) 92.11% chance to 2HKO (factoring SR + Leftovers).

The only things are:
- Where are you going to get a Flash Fire boost? The ones off of the top of my head are Blissey's Flamethrower and Celebi's HP Fire..
- You can only hit the likes of Tentacruel and Vaporeon switching in; but most of the time you'll be locked into FF Fire Blast anyway: BUT, it means SpecsTran alone on a team without a Fire boost still gets splashed around with surf, making it not really reliable.
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Blissey can PP stall it.
You use Fire Blast!
Blissey uses Wish!
You use Fire Blast!
Blissey uses Protect!

It will keep doing that, eventually, you will run out of Fire Blast.
 
So, only Blissey with Protect can 'stall' it out? Sometimes Blissey use Wish/Softboiled, to avoid being setup fodder for things like DD Tyranitar, and Stall hates boosting pokemon.
 
If you want to use a special attacker to beat Blissey, the only ways of doing so are Choice Specs Focus Blast or Rest Talk. Besides, even if Blissey doesn't have Protect, Heatran would have to hit it on the switch-in and with SR up to be able to KO it.
 
No, it can use Wish and switch to Vaporeon and Tentacruel if it runs out of Protect. Heatran is actually pretty easy to get around.
 
Objection said:
If you want to use a special attacker to beat Blissey, the only ways of doing so are Choice Specs Focus Blast or Rest Talk. Besides, even if Blissey doesn't have Protect, Heatran would have to hit it on the switch-in and with SR up to be able to KO it.
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Still, if you have a flash fire boost, Blissey will always switch in unless one pokemon has sacrificed itself, which it almost never will in stall.

But I guess it makes sense, if Heatran gets the boost from Blissey..
 
NP Infernape really has been "the" Stall breaker for my team. The passive damage does catch up with it, but with adequate prediction, he can break the stall.

Magnezone and Gengar are two other ones that I personally like, but not as much as Ape. Zone due to Magnet Pull, which can deal with any Steel not holding the Shed Shell, and Gengar because he can Explode in Blissey's face, and KO almost everything else with Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, and Thunderbolt.

Prediction is also critical for breaking a Stall. A stall team is built to resist almost every type, if not every type, and if you can't predict, your stall breaker isn't going to do jack to the stall team.
 
ReyScarface said:
Then lets take it like this:

I SD while my opponent brings in Gyarados.
I use Extremespeed (10 BP less than CC) and my opponent a) Uses Waterfall and i survive to CC his ass to dead. b) uses Roar.

In both scenarios, Lucario "won" the war.
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Thats better ;).
Still, gyara can take two hits if it is 252/252 impish and 2hko (but be extremely weakened, allowing it to be relatively easily killed later).
Not all gyaras in stall have that spread of course (I know at least one person ran careful with 252 evs in special defense).
 
I've always found a well played Breloom gives trouble to many stall teams. Send it in when they are setting up entry hazards, and since majority of the standard pokemon on stall teams are slow, they have trouble with Breloom.
 
Franklin said:
Jesus, SpecsTran really does a lot to stall teams, look at these calculations:

[FF Fire Blast vs 0/176 Blissey] 591 Atk vs 386 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 297 - 349 (45.62% - 53.61%) 93.29% to 2HKO (with Leftovers + SR).

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/0 Vaporeon] 591 Atk vs 226 Def & 464 HP (120 Base Power): 252 - 297 (54.31% - 64.01%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/0 Hippowdon] 591 Atk vs 180 Def & 420 HP (120 Base Power): 316 - 372 (75.24% - 88.57%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 240/0 Swampert] 591 Atk vs 216 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 263 - 310 (65.10% - 76.73%) 2HKO

[FF Fire Blast vs 252/136 Tentacruel] 591 Atk vs 343 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 165 - 195 (45.33% - 53.57%) 92.11% chance to 2HKO (factoring SR + Leftovers).

The only things are:
- Where are you going to get a Flash Fire boost? The ones off of the top of my head are Blissey's Flamethrower and Celebi's HP Fire..
- You can only hit the likes of Tentacruel and Vaporeon switching in; but most of the time you'll be locked into FF Fire Blast anyway: BUT, it means SpecsTran alone on a team without a Fire boost still gets splashed around with surf, making it not really reliable.
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You could use Taunt+LO to beat the common Wish Blissey with the extra bonus of Explosion to take out Vaporeon and Latias for a Nape opening.
 
[FF LO Fire Blast] 394 Atk vs 386 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 255 - 301 (39.17% - 46.24%) 3HKO

Taunt + LO could be a decent choice, but can only put a dent in stall teams, which SpecsTran can do a lot more to unprepared Stall Teams. Taunt + LO could still be a great option, though.
 
New Mixmence is actually not very effective at stall-busting (I don't know what people are thinking!). I actually consider that spread more of a sweeper or gamebreaker rather than a wallbreaker. Consider this, you Draco Meteor as he switches in Blissey, now you must A) Outrage while he switches to Skarm / Forry for free entry hazards. Classic Mixmence and Mixnite are much more effective at stall-breaking.

As for Heatran, unless your using Explosion and a Life Orb.. (you still have to be weary of Rotomfuck), Heatran is a pretty fucking shitty ass stall breaker. Fire Blast sucks... it has 8 PP and as mentioned before Vaporeon and Blissey can PP stall it (not to mention it misses all the time). Also, how... just how are you going to get a FF boost? Switching into Blissey's Flamethrower means Blissey is running Flamethrower, Toxic, Wish, Protect, and she really doesn't give a shit about anything you through at her from there.
 
In my opinion, I feel that SD Nape has an easier time breaking Stall than NP Nape, considering that NP Nape is essentially stopped by Latias. Though, I'm not sure how Frequent Latias really is on Stall, though she is used a lot by regular teams.
 
iKitsune said:
Trickers

As soon as you sense that a team is stall use trick straight away trick will usually make your life alot easier. Especially if you trick Blissey or a Rest Talker
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Good plan, but most stall teams plan on facing trickers and usually have something that can absorb it without becoming a complete liability. If I see a Rotom switch in, and doesn't have recovery, I'm not switching Blissey into that. And since chances are you aren't leading with Rotom, I will be able to tell if you've got leftovers due to SR/Switch-In Damage/Weather.

So yeah, if trick works it hurts stall, but don't use that as your only way of getting around it.
 
Wow no mention of Toxicing Blissey and then Pursuiting it? Sub Toxic Heatran + CB Tyranitar is a classic stall breaking combo. Blissey can't stay in and stall out Pursuit because of Toxic so it has to switch out and die (or be left with like 10% health). Once you kill Blissey stall is easy as crap to beat with other special attackers or the Heatran itself (can KO and outspeed most members of a classic stall team) though the recent increase in Gyara usage on stall teams means you'll need another special attacker to break that. The combo also includes CB Tar which can OHKO or 2HKO everything on a stall team and Pursuit the Rotom and Celebi as well.

One of my older teams used Zapdos which most other stall pokes hate to lure the Blissey out to Toxic/ Pursuit it.
 
PolisforRule said:
In my opinion, I feel that SD Nape has an easier time breaking Stall than NP Nape, considering that NP Nape is essentially stopped by Latias. Though, I'm not sure how Frequent Latias really is on Stall, though she is used a lot by regular teams.
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A lot of people say Infernape is done as a Stall breaker due to Latias, but Think about it- Tyranitar comes in, Pursuits it, let the monkey sweep. The SandStorm doesn't hurt (stall ALWAYS carries weather) and Tyranitar deals with Infernape's best counter. I honestly don't know how often Latias is used as a Staller, but either way, it won't be nearly as common as Skarm, Bliss, Hippowdon, Abomasnow, Walrein, Swampert, etc.

I also think a lot of other NP Mixape stallers are not on Stall teams (Togekiss, Vaporeon, etc.), bar Cresselia.
 
I still like Mixed Togekiss as a way to screw up Stall.

ExtremeSpeed 2HKOs both Blissey and Zapdos, which are common counters to Togekiss. After seeing ExtremeSpeed, they inevitably switch to a Normal resist like Skarmory or Tyranitar. Skarm is OHKO'd by Flamethrower, while Tar is OHKOd (except for the most bulky builds) by Aura Sphere. Bam, most of their defensive Core is down.
 
Polis4rule said:
In my opinion, I feel that SD Nape has an easier time breaking Stall than NP Nape, considering that NP Nape is essentially stopped by Latias. Though, I'm not sure how Frequent Latias really is on Stall, though she is used a lot by regular teams.
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How does sdape beat latias when mixape can't? U-turn on the switch? O_o
 
scofield said:
How does sdape beat latias when mixape can't? U-turn on the switch? O_o
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I guess that the Latias in Stall are invested in HP and Special Defence, with Dragon Pulse as the only attack... so if thats the case, Infernape gets an SD on the switch, and ¿can? KO Latias with +2 LO Stone Edge.

Thats my thought...
 
No one runs latias without enough speed to outspeed infernape,even on stall teams. And dragon pulse does net the ohko after SR.
 
Max Special Attack Timid Latias Dragon Pulse vs 0/0 Infernape:
Percentages: 52.38% 57.14% 62.24%

I dont think its an OHKO, not even near, also, i have never seen a max special attack Latias on a stall team, so i guess Polis is right.
 
Yeah if you're going to use Latias on stall why wouldn't you make it able to handle Infernape, since it is usually perceived as a top-notch stall breaker, or it was pre-lati.
 
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