Double Battle Metagame.

[POKEMONBATTLEBRAIN]

Well, in VGC, item clause is on, so you can't have two Choice scarfs on your leads, and two, Jirachi isn't allowed. :P

 

[Dalevl]

The main reason two inner focus pokemon aren't seen at the same time is because they are all pretty frail, at least that is my opinion. I like the team idea but I feel that you aren't really taking Advantage Gravity's Evasion Drop and Levitators/Flyers vulnerabilty to Ground attacks. Gravity teams for the most part are a bit of High Risk , High Return deal since it works against you too and luck takes over once it runs out but if you use it effectively it can shut down your opponents quickly, especially the Chomp+Zap leads that have become more common lol.

 

[Vhind]

Back when I was testing my Gravity team, opponents would often take advantage of it: I would be wasting a turn setting it up only for the other person to use a strong, low accuracy move against me and have it connect.

Does anyone know a good combination to spam Earthquakes in Gravity? lol.

 

[Deleted User 33526]

I have heard a lot about this one here I'm not sure who made it though. Zapdos and Electivire Combo.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Pressure
252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpA Modest
~ Discharge
~ Hidden Power Grass
~ Light Screen
~ Roost

+

Electivire @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Motor Drive
252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 HP Adamant
~ Cross Chop
~ Ice Punch
~ Thunderpunch
~ Earthquake


The point of this two Pokemon together is two boost up Vire's speed while Discharge is also going to hit your opponent's Pokemon. Hidden Power Grass on Zapdos is for Swamperts and Rhyperiors that might ruin you. ( I doubt Hidden Power Grass would KO those two anyway in one hit, but hey mabye some hax in shining armor could help you). Light Screen to help these two Pokemon survive longer from Special Hits. Roost will help Zapdos greatly. Remember readers this combo is ruined by Claydol and Flygon.

I made this set a LONG time ago when I was getting ready for VGC.

 

[Metal Gods]

VGC Ubers

Rules (Assuming it's like 10 ANIV with the banning of Event Obtained Legendarys such as Mew, Celebi, Deoxys. I'll assume they'll have Rotom, Phione, Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin, and Arceus banned as well.)

Item Clause
Species Clause
Soul Dew Clause

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature (+SpA,-Spe)
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

+

Palkia @ Lustrious Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe,-Atk)
- Surf
- Spacial Rend
- Thunder
- filler

Assuming we get an Uber VGC in a year or 2 I expect this to be very common. Kyogre's Water Spout will KO just about everything and Palkia is there to benefit from the Rain. Palkia will hit things like Quagsire with Spacial Rend. I'm still theorymaning with this/

 

[Gymdude]

The main reason two inner focus pokemon aren't seen at the same time is because they are all pretty frail, at least that is my opinion.

I actually see a lot of Crobat (Crobats? w/e) used for setting up weather and whatnot because of it's ridiculous speed, and it's pretty bulky. Alakazam is kind of popular too, but like you said it's frail. Dragonite also deserves a mention, but I don't see much of them.

 

[Pidge]

Froslass @ Life Orb
Snow Cloak
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid
~ Ice Beam
~ Shadow Ball
~ Taunt
~ Protect

Infernape @ Passho Berry
Blaze
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
~ Flare Blitz
~ Fake Out
~ Encore
~ Protect

Versus Garchomp and Zapdos:
Infernape Fakes out Zapdos while Garchomp gets KO'd by Froslass. If it has Yache Berry, there is a 74.36% chance Ice Beam will OHKO (even more if chance of Critical Hit is not taken into account in Libelldra's damage calc, and then there is the chance of freeze...), 100% otherwise. Infernape can Encore either foe if he/she/it uses Protect/Detect. Then the two can double up on Zapdos.

Versus Dusknoir and Smeargle:
Froslass Taunts Dusknoir and its chance of Trick Room. Smeargle gets Faked Out. Then Froslass begins dwindling Dusknoir's health and Infernape finishes Smeargle. If Smeargle Protected on turn 1, Infernape Encores it.

Versus Abomasnow and Gengar:
Not completely countered. Froslass and Gengar tie in speed, and whoever wins KOs the other. Froslass can also switch into a Normal type. Infernape Flare Blitz Abomasnow for the OHKO, despite Occa Berry.

Versus Jolteon and Ludicolo
Not completely countered. Infernape and Froslass can Fake Out and Taunt Jolteon, stopping Rain Dance. Infernape can take a Hydro Pump with Passho Berry. The opponent's team's greatest asset, Rain Dance, is taken care of, but the rest of the battle could be a little shaky.

Versus Garchomp and Abomasnow:
Double double double effective.

Versus Garchomp and Gengar:
Hmm... Froslass could Protect on the first turn, not getting hurt from Shadow Ball and Earthquake. Meanwhile, Infernape's Flare Blitz KOs Gengar. Then Froslass can OHKO Garchomp safely.

Versus Gengar and Zapdos:
Froslass Protect from Shadow Ball, Infernape KOs Gengar. Then the two combine their attacks onto Zapdos.

Versus everything else:
Ice/Ghost/Fire seems like a good combination that hits a lot, while the Pokemon themselves are speedy. Encore and Taunt are just awesome moves that can mess up anyone trying to do anything Tricky. Pun intended. If either of the leads do get Tricked, they don't mind that much. Froslass is immune to Normal moves, while Infernape carries Protect, making the opponent think twice about Self-destruct/Explosion.

Thoughts?

 

[Vhind]

Pidgeot79, I am actually a fan of that strategy. It's simple and seems effective, at least on paper.


However, I'm still wondering if someone could answer this question:

Does anyone know a good combination to spam Earthquakes in Gravity? lol.

 

[POKEMONBATTLEBRAIN]

I disagree about the one with Smeargle and Dusknoir. Smeargle will Follow Me and negate your Taunt and Fake Out, because Follow Me has +3 priority(Fake Out only has +1) and TR will be set up. It will die to Fake Out and Hail turn 1 though, and then if Snorlax is brought in, you could deal decent damage with Flare Blitz or Close Combat.


The rest of your strategies seem very plausible though. I'll have to try a few of them out on PBR if I get the chance. ;)

 

[Pidge]

Gravity Counter - 5 Turns

The turn Gravity is used counts as a turn. So where you put 5, it should be 4. Where you put 4, it should be 3, etc.

Pidgeot79, I am actually a fan of that strategy. It's simple and seems effective, at least on paper.


However, I'm still wondering if someone could answer this question:

Shedinja is one of the few (if not only) Pokemon that can not get hurt by Earthquake under Gravity. You can also try alternating Protect and Earthquake with two Pokemon. That's all I can input for now.

I disagree about the one with Smeargle and Dusknoir. Smeargle will Follow Me and negate your Taunt and Fake Out, because Follow Me has +3 priority(Fake Out only has +1) and TR will be set up. It will die to Fake Out and Hail turn 1 though, and then if Snorlax is brought in, you could deal decent damage with Flare Blitz or Close Combat.


The rest of your strategies seem very plausible though. I'll have to try a few of them out on PBR if I get the chance. ;)

Good point. I was not thinking of the Follow Me version, rather the Dark Void, Protect, Fake Out, Endeavor one.

 

[Vhind]

Shedinja is one of the few (if not only) Pokemon that can not get hurt by Earthquake under Gravity. You can also try alternating Protect and Earthquake with two Pokemon. That's all I can input for now.

Eh, I used to run a Shedinja on my old Gravity team. It was decent but its coverage wasn't satisfactory.

And I would just hate to get into a pattern with Protect. lol.

 

[Masamune]

A personal combo of mine...


Regigigas@Expert Belt/Lum Berry
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/6 Spe
Moves:
-Rock Polish
-Fire Punch
-Earthquake
-Return

Shuckle@Lum Berry
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP/96 Def/160 SpD [Equal Defenses]
Moves:
-Helping Hand
-Gastro Acid
-Toxic
-Rest


The Combo:

Setup:

TURN ONE:
Shuckle took a hit
Regigigas took a hit.

Regigigas used Rock Polish!
Shuckle used Gastro Acid!


TURN TWO
Shuckle used Helping Hand!
Regigigas used an overpowered move coming from 472+ Speed!


Works well on paper, and in actualy battles.

 

[Vhind]

Too bad it's overused.

 

[Metal Gods]

Rules (Assuming it's like 10 ANIV with the banning of Event Obtained Legendarys such as Mew, Celebi, Deoxys. I'll assume they'll have Rotom, Phione, Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin, and Arceus banned as well.)

Item Clause
Species Clause
Soul Dew Clause

Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature (+SpA,-Spe)
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

+

Palkia @ Lustrious Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid nature (+Spe,-Atk)
- Surf
- Spacial Rend
- Thunder
- filler

Assuming we get an Uber VGC in a year or 2 I expect this to be very common. Kyogre's Water Spout will KO just about everything and Palkia is there to benefit from the Rain. Palkia will hit things like Quagsire with Spacial Rend. I'm still theorymaning with this/

Would anyone else like to help me with some Uber 2v2 Combos?

 

[theamericandream38]

Too bad it's overused.

Also, that Shuckle gets absolutely destroyed by Taunt. Then again, any Shuckle gets dismantled by Taunt, because no one in their right mind uses attacks with Shuckle (Power Trick is not good). To be honest, no one in their right mind uses Shuckle at all, especially in doubles.

 

[Murkrow]

Question: How does Blizzard's (and Muddy Water/Heat Wave/Rock Slide/etc.) accuracy check work in doubles? Is each hit 70% accurate and independent of the other, or is the overall move 70% accurate?

For example, if the two hits (on the two opponents) were independent, Blizzard would have a 49% chance of hitting both opponents, a 42% chance of hitting one opponent but not the other, and a 9% chance of completely missing.

On the other hand, if the overall move had 70% accuracy, there would be a 30% chance that neither hit lands, and that 70% is divided among the chances that one hit lands (but not the other) or both hits land.

Following that question, on a non-Hail team, which is generally preferred? If Blizzard works by the first way, then you would have a 91% chance of hitting at least one opponent with a 90 damage Ice attack. This is less reliable, but also less vulnerable to being completely foiled by Protect; you also have the opportunity (49%) to strike both opponents with the attack, which would be nice against Zapdos/Garchomp. Likewise, Heat Wave vs. Flamethrower/Fire Blast?

 

[drcossack]

Heat Wave vs. Flamethrower/Fire Blast?

Heat Wave. Hits all enemies, which Fire Blast & Flamethrower don't do.

 

[Vhind]

To be honest, no one in their right mind uses Shuckle at all, especially in doubles.

Whoa. That is a hasty judgement. Shuckles are great in doubles when used properly. Sure, opponents know what their purpose is as an assisting partner, but they play that role extremely well.
And to be honest, though Taunt is very effective in doubles, it isn't as common as one would think. Hmm.

Question: How does Blizzard's (and Muddy Water/Heat Wave/Rock Slide/etc.) accuracy check work in doubles? Is each hit 70% accurate and independent of the other, or is the overall move 70% accurate?

Accuracy checks run on each Pokemon that it hits, so they're independent of each other.

For example, if the two hits (on the two opponents) were independent, Blizzard would have a 49% chance of hitting both opponents, a 42% chance of hitting one opponent but not the other, and a 9% chance of completely missing.

Please refresh my memory, how did you get the 42%? lol. I thought it would just be .7(1-.7)=21%.

Following that question, on a non-Hail team, which is generally preferred? If Blizzard works by the first way, then you would have a 91% chance of hitting at least one opponent with a 90 damage Ice attack. This is less reliable, but also less vulnerable to being completely foiled by Protect; you also have the opportunity (49%) to strike both opponents with the attack, which would be nice against Zapdos/Garchomp. Likewise, Heat Wave vs. Flamethrower/Fire Blast?

Um, what? I'm not sure if I understand so I'm just going to ramble on about a plausible answer to your question:
It all depends upon your style of playing. Do you want to risk missing with a reward of hitting both Pokemon with Heat Wave? Or do you wish to tear into a single Pokemon with high power but not-so-terrific accuracy such as with Fire Blast? Or, how about not risking anything at all with a stable Flamethrower?
It's your choice, but you must also factor in enemy Pokemon with the Flash Fire ability, which could hamper your plans.

 

[Murkrow]

I was mostly considering Blizzard. If its accuracy checks against the two opposing Pokemon are independent, then I would seriously consider using it in place of Ice Beam in some (non-Hail, because in Hail you'd obviously use Blizzard) contexts, e.g., on Vaporeon in a Rain team.

Please refresh my memory, how did you get the 42%? lol. I thought it would just be .7(1-.7)=21%.

Yes, that's right. And 21% x 2 = 42%, which is the chance that one opponent OR the other will be hit, but not both. E.g., if I use Blizzard against Garchomp and Zapdos, there's a 91% (= 49% chance of hitting both + 21% chance of hitting Chomp but missing Zapdos + 21% chance of hitting Zapdos and missing Chomp) chance that at least one of them will get hit. I suppose the main problem with Blizzard is the uncertainty. E.g., say you really need to get rid of the Chomp, but there's the 30% chance (100% - 49% - 21% = 100% - 70% = 30%) that Blizzard will miss it, whereas there's a 0% chance that Ice Beam will miss it (barring Sand Veil/Brightpowder hax).

I'm only considering this for Blizzard because it's so much more powerful than Ice Beam, so that each hit is comparable in power (120 x 0.75 = 90) to an Ice Beam (95). For Heat Wave, each hit is significantly weaker than Flamethrower. I see Heat Wave as useful mostly against the Bronzong/Smeargle setup.

I'm not sure if I understand

I'm comparing

Ice Beam: 95 power, 100% accuracy, 1 target

Blizzard outside of Hail:
9% chance: does nothing
21% chance: hits opponent #1 (90 power), misses opponent #2
21% chance: hits opponent #2 (90 power), misses opponent #1
49% chance: hits both opponents (90 power x 2 = 180 which is nearly the power of 2 Ice Beams)
[assuming independent accuracy checks for each opponent]

What do you think? Does anyone actually use Blizzard as their Ice attack on a non-Hail team or is it just too unreliable?

 

[Vhind]

Personally, I do not use Blizzard on non-Hail teams. I avoid the risk whenever possible.
And as you pointed out, there is the chance of not hitting the preferred target, which would bother me to no end.

 

[Dalevl]

Also, that Shuckle gets absolutely destroyed by Taunt. Then again, any Shuckle gets dismantled by Taunt, because no one in their right mind uses attacks with Shuckle (Power Trick is not good). To be honest, no one in their right mind uses Shuckle at all, especially in doubles.

I don't seem to understand all this Shuckle Hate that everyone seems to have, considering he is quite the great Support Pokemon and Sweeper in TR Teams, he basically outspeeds everything that isn't below his level.

I personally feel that Blizzard in a Non-Hail team can be ran, despite the numbers that have been given, espeically if ran in a Gravity Team or if you want a Sweeper that can hit both pokemon, since in VGC it seems ,from experiance, you are either hitting SE or NE with Ice Attacks at all times.

I have been thinking that same thing Aero about the possible revival of JAA Style Rules in the future now that we have Lv. 1 Versions of the Sinnoh Dragons available. To be Honest, would trade in Scarf for an Expert Belt or Splash Platet to abuse Surf and add Calm Mind to take your partners Surfs while also boosting your own SA. Groudon could also be abused in tangent with Cherrim if Gravity has been set up prior to his entrance and just Spam EQ, even using Helping Hand with Cherrim to add insult to injury.

 

[Arcaseven]

Kingdra @ Wet Rock
Swift Swim
252 Spa/242 HP/16 Spe and Modest
~ Rain Dance
~ Surf
~ Ice Beam
~ Dragon Pulse

Toxicroak @ Black Sludge
Dry Skin
252 Att/ 240 Speed/18 HP and Jolly
~ Substitue
~ Focus Punch
~ Sucker Punch
~ Stone Edge

Toxicroak WILL NOT DIE in double battles. Dry Skin (Rain Dance + Surf) + Black Sludge = 3 / 8 recovery a turn. So you can Sub up, and get healed immediately. I've tested it and Surf does NOT mess up Focus Punch. Kingdra need almost need speed EVs to outspeed everything, and if it kills one of the opponents, then Toxicroak will be able to get off his Focus Punch with out worrying about being ganged up on.

What about pairing Toxicroak with a Damp Pokemon to ensure survival in the case of an Explosion lead?

 

[Dalevl]

Wouldn't those leads be destroyed by a fast exploder in your case, also since you are regenerating HP, why not FS instead of BS, Surf already restores the HP you gave up for a Sub plus some extra from the Rain, and maybe Fake Out or Taunt instead of Stone Edge or Sucker Punch to stop the other teams from setting up.

 

[TheLonelyBurrito]

Finally, a good Double Battle thread. Most people forget they even exist since Single Battles are much easier to comprehend.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Water Absorb
188 HP, 252 Def, 68 SpA Bold
~ Surf
~ Ice Beam
~ Shadow Ball
~ Yawn/Fake Tears

Lapras @ Leftovers
Water Absorb
164 HP, 92 Def, 252 SpA Modest
~ Surf
~ Thunderbolt
~ HP [Ground]
~ Toxic

Two Water Absorbers helping each other, the sight of it all. This works best with Rain Dance support. Obviously, Surf deals damage to both opponents and heals your partner. Ice Beam on one and Thunderbolt on the other means you can effectivly cripple your two opponents. Hidden Power on Lapras kills electrics trying to ruin the fun while Shadow Ball hits ghosts trying to spook you with Thunderbolt. Yawn/Fake Tears means a switch, which allows for Lapras to use Toxic on the switch. I would personally use Fake Tears because you really hurt them if they stay in and you poison them if they stay out. If you use Yawn, they could activate the Sleep clause and destroy your PHazing ability.

what happens when grass and electric sweepers outspeed vaporeon and lapras?

 

[Vhind]

what happens when grass and electric sweepers outspeed vaporeon and lapras?

One is more likely to discover Heat Wave users more so than a grass sweeper.