Let's not drag this thread off track by theorymonning Dugtrio and Raikou, there is another UU thread to discuss tiering with specific pokemon!!
ok I am not a mod so I can't say anything about the status of this thread, but I was one of the two people that proposed the changes to the system. I personally invite any criticism, since that only helps make the process more enjoyable for everyone and helps us make the best system possible. As long as this thread stays open I can try to answer questions and respond to people....
The current testing process doesn't bother me to much yet it does. What really makes the system seemingly "flawed" is that UU metagame is completely determined by OU.
Right, this is the main reason why we decided to make the process faster and more efficient. Since OU determines UU, as soon as the tier list changes we are faced with a completely different metagame.
Right now, we are determining god knows what in the current voting process and after that is done... we add two more Pokemon, Dugrtio and Dophan, to the tier as well as losing Umbreon. Logically, we should have to start over completely in the testing process because what was broken before isn't exactly as broken now. Now I can't make a complete arguement without a little "logical theorymon". With the addition of Dugtrio wouldn't that impact Raikou usuages (how much it is used and how it is used). Or perhaps Froslass's uses. A majority of Froslass uses was at a lead position... Frosslass won't be causing as much harm with a lead dugtrio (sashed) or with the inclusion of Dophan a potentially more reliable spinner or finally the use of Forsieght Hitmontop usuage. Essentially, once a Pokemon is introduced to UU there should be a reset button of sorts and complete retesting should be done.
Right, this is why we're introducing a system of bringing things that were voted BL back into UU if people don't feel that it is broken anymore. Since we only have a few BL pokemon at the moment, this isn't very important...but after a couple more periods of testing it will likely be of much higher priority.
Balanced Metagame does not exhist and never will. I think that searching for a "Balanced Metagame" is absurd and that a new form of terminology needs to be used. Examples... UU is currently about as balanced as it gets. Others argue that Stall is to prevailent but honestly, this is as good as it gets... that I've experienced. NU on the otherhand is far from balance (what most people would consider to be) and tends to be offensively orreinted. Now in order to achieve this said balance are we going to pull out offensive threats untill it looks something like UU.
Just because you don't think a balanced metagame is possible (which is arguable enough on its own), doesn't mean that we should stop striving towards a more balanced game whenever we can.
And we aren't "pulling out offensive threats", people who play the tier are nominating and voting on things that they think are breaking the game (offensively, supportively and defensively) to the point where removing them would make it more enjoyable.
My problem is the UU metagame should have a lot more from the NU tier, because I always saw the NU tier as a place for the worst of the worst and it clearly isn't right now, we're basically looking at UU/BL/OU again with slightly different pokemon(and calling it NU/UU/OU) and instead giving it three metagames instead of two. My point is that a lot more NU pokemon should move up to UU. The cut off for 'too low usage to be 'underused' is too high right now imo.
There is no such thing as "too low usage to be underused", since everything that is NU is allowed in UU. If you look at
Smogon's philosophy, the tiers are entirely based on usage. Since we play competitively, its assumed that people will use the best pokemon. The ones that are used less are "under used" and the ones used less than that are "never used". It says nothing of how the pokemon actually performs. If you have a problem with something being NU instead of UU, use it and win more! Other people will follow suit and the pokemon will rise in tiers!
A few concerns about UU testing:
- Pokemon that fit well into UU but get OU status by OU usage: the main pokemon I'm talking about is Umbreon. Throughout all the months of the UU metagame overhaul, Umbreon has not proven to be broken at all in the tier. I think it is unfair to ban it from UU even if it fits well in UU. I know the OU/UU/NU tiers are based solely on usage, but if Umbreon fits well in UU and only expands the pool of usable pokemon, why should it be banned?
Don't worry, we are taking this into account too! Things that constantly border the line of UU and OU will be taken into account..I'm just waiting to talk to Jabba about how we're going to handle this. Things like Yanmega, Porygon2, Umbreon, Tentacruel etc are too common to just ignore.
- Pokemon that were voted BL that are potentially not broken due to tier changes: just like what Exclamation Point was saying above, BL pokemon like Raikou would be significantly impacted with the introduction of both Dugtrio and Donphan. The UU process does not take this into account at all. The process as of right now thinks of it as if a certain pokemon was broken in a certain UU metagame (like Raikou in the January month), then it must be banned from UU forever, when it is possible that the introduction of both Raikou and Dugtrio would benefit the entire tier overall. Someone in the policy review suggested that along with the suspect nominations, there should also be nominations for the reintroduction of BL pokes, or at least some consideration of BL pokes being reintroduced.
Yes, this is something that will be detailed more in the very near future. For now, you basically have the reasoning spot on.
- Will the tiers be changing every three months? I think once OU suspect testing is done (seems pretty close actually), UU will finally be able to settle a bit more. But will the tiers ever be "frozen"? I doubt we will ever get the "stable" metagame that everyone desires if the tiers change every three months.
As of right now, there is no reason to see why the tiers would ever be frozen. We're always working towards a more perfect metagame...but the tiers are based on usage, which constantly changes as the metagame shifts. Something like Soul Dew-less Latias might be uber in a metagame where Zapdos and Heatran are popular, but with Scizor and Tyranitar dominating usage it might not be as tough to take down. It depends too much on what other people are playing to decide if something is overpowered or not...which is why we need a more fluid process.
