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np: UU - Higher Ground

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Erazor said:
Agreeing about Yanmega, but why exactly is SR a given?
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Not a given, but it is a way to hinder Yanmega's performance. Just as you claim that Stealth Rocks may not always be set up, a Rapid Spinner may not always be there to save 'mega, or a ghost may just take care of said Rapid Spinner, and entry hazards such as SR are rather common. Reducing the ability to safely bring in 'mega (1/2 HP loss every time with SR) is a viable reason for his flaws.

Without SR up, 'mega does become a serious threat to just about any Pokemon. With SR, 'mega can still be an annoyance for an unprepared team. Priority and scarfers can pick off an injured Specs 'mega, and Speed Boost variants can be T'waved walled by proper special sponges.
 
Oak said:
Not a given, but it is a way to hinder Yanmega's performance.
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I know it's a way to help check it. I was asking Heysup why he thought it was a given.
Just as you claim that Stealth Rocks may not always be set up, a Rapid Spinner may not always be there to save 'mega, or a ghost may just take care of said Rapid Spinner, and entry hazards such as SR are rather common. Reducing the ability to safely bring in 'mega (1/2 HP loss every time with SR) is a viable reason for his flaws.
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First of all, any half-competent Yanmega user WILL have a Rapid Spinner alongside. Not doing so is unnecessarily handicapping yourself. Second, what do you mean a ghost may take care of the Rapid Spinner? Didn't I already state that Hitmontop will get a spin off even against a mono-ghost team, and that Donphan can KO most ghosts with Assurance on the switch, and hit them once again if they survive if he's at decent enough health?
You are saying that reducing the ability to switch in Yanmega is a reason against BL, while I am saying that that the means to prevent this switching may not even be present.

Without SR up, 'mega does become a serious threat to just about any Pokemon. With SR, 'mega can still be an annoyance for an unprepared team. Priority and scarfers can pick off an injured Specs 'mega, and Speed Boost variants can be T'waved walled by proper special sponges.
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A Yanmega at 1 HP is as deadly as a Yanmega at full HP. And even after SR, most priority attacks fail to KO Yanmega. And by proper special sponges you are basically saying Chansey, Milotic, and Registeel. Nothing else can wall Speed Boost Yanmega reliably.

Yanmega is broken under the offensive characteristic.
 
Dekzeh said:
From the top 50 most used in UU, Milotic walls (or at least beats-one-on-one) without much problems the following:

Registeel, Mismagius, Uxie, Yanmega, Blaziken, Hitmontop, Ambipom, Azumarill, Spiritomb, Steelix, Arcanine, Claydol, Altaria, Moltres, Houndoom, Feraligatr, Weezing, Dugtrio, Regirock, Kabutops, Scyther, Miltank, Donphan, Nidoking, Typhlosion, Drifblim, Nidoqueen.

That's 27 out of 49 (didn't include Milotic on the list).
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The only problem with this is that you're assuming Milotic has the following moveset: Surf / Ice Beam / HP Grass / Toxic / Haze / Rest / Sleep Talk. SDS's sig comes to mind here.

That and SubCM is not the most common Missy set anymore, at least in my experience.
 
To be fair I'm only assuming Surf, HP Grass, Haze, Recover. That set beats all of those I listed... (except Altaria I guess, but who cares....)

I guess you can remove a counter or two if it has Ice Beam over HP Grass and vice-versa. But the point stands

If I was assuming all those moves you posted, I'd have added things such as Blastoise and Slowbro to the list...
 
Foresight Hitmontop doesn't get a guaranteed Spin. Are we forgetting about TrickSpecs Ghosts? That applies to Donphan too, but at least Donphan can hit them on a predicted switch.

Considering that Yanmega's greatest counters (Registeel and Chansey) both can set up Stealth Rock themselves, the argument loses a lot of merit, considering that they can set up Rocks again even if they already got Spinned away. And with the proper offensive pressure, Donphan still will have a hard time Spinning.
 
Dekzeh said:
To be fair I'm only assuming Surf, HP Grass, Haze, Recover. That set beats all of those I listed... (except Altaria I guess, but who cares....)

I guess you can remove a counter or two if it has Ice Beam over HP Grass and vice-versa. But the point stands

If I was assuming all those moves you posted, I'd have added things such as Blastoise and Slowbro to the list...
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With that set you lose to any of the walls that happen to be carrying Toxic. SubRoost Moltres isn't that uncoomon either, and I've even seen some SubPunch Azus carry it.

On a completely unrelated note, I've been using a really abstract Miltank set recently that has been working wonders so far in this metagame, and has saved my ass countless times:

Miltank @ Leftovers
Thick Fat
Jolly
212 HP / 76 SpD / 220 Spe

~ Return
~ Rock Slide
~ Stealth Rock
~ Milk Drink

Makes for a decent counter / check to LO Moltres, resisting its main STAB whilst outrunning and 2HKOing with Rock Slide. Can also check Specs Yanmega and other Fire types such as Arcanine and Houndoom. The flinch rate from Rock Slide is very useful as you can occasionally beat things that you wouldn't normally such as a Honchkrow at more than 50% health, if the situation ever presents itself. Also breaks Missy's Subs which is a bonus

I originally had Body Slam over Return, but quickly opted for the extra power as the paralysis can often conflict with Toxic from teammates, and it doesn't really benefit Miltank all that much anyway. I'm using SR in the third slot as my team needs it, but it can be replaced with Heal Bell or status move of choice depending on the team. Milk Drink is obvious for recovery.

I've been considering EQ over Return as it would help somewhat for certain threats like Toxicroak, Blaziken and Drapion, but I reckon I'd miss the power too much, particularly when you consider that Miltank doesn't hit very hard as it is unless it's for super-effective damage.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
With that set you lose to any of the walls that happen to be carrying Toxic. SubRoost Moltres isn't that uncoomon either, and I've even seen some SubPunch Azus carry it.
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Which is why I didn't include stuff that normally carry Toxic such as Chansey, Slowbro and Blastoise. Of all those I've listed only Registeel carries Toxic, and only under 15% of the time. Moltres also only has Toxic 13% the times, and Azumarill somewhere here :
Code: 
| Azumarill  | Move         | Other (8)        | <   4.0 |
Of course one set of one poké won't be able to deal with everything, but as I said I feel that Milotic does wall a large portion of the tier, and none of your posts proved me wrong.

The question is if that large portion is enough to be considered broken or not, and even I am not so sure of that as of now.
 
Because Yanmega is an offensive threat and therefore doesn't have to switch into anything to fulfill the characteristic. A defensive threat does.
 
Dekzeh said:
And isn't Milotic switching in easily against at least half the tier?
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The thing is though, if you consider that to be fitting the defensive characteristic, then stall would be as good as dead. Goodbye Milotic, Registeel, Chansey, Altaria etc. These Pokemon need to be able to wall a large chunk of the metagame in order to be viable stall players.

All of this Milotic talk has reminded me again of how overlooked Qwilfish seems to be as a threat outside Rain, particularly to stall. It can actually run two decent sets; offensive or spiker. Offensive is just a simple Swords Dance set with Taunt + dual STAB attacks, which works well because most physically bulky threats are either weak to one of its STABs (Regirock, Donphan, Steelix, Tangrowth etc) or its setup fodder (Milotic, Registeel, Hitmontop etc). Slowbro is a big threat, but it is mostly seen on balanced teams and virtually nonexistant on stall.

The spiker version works like a mini Froslass, utilizing the Spikes + Taunt + Destiny Bond combo with Poison Point and focusing on bulk and speed over power. Catches people off guard more often than you might think, and can set up Spikes easily against a number of common threats. You can even run Surf or Hydro Pump on this set if deterring Donphan is your main priority, as damage output is not the main objective.

The spiker version is by far my favorite and most used set, but both can make a big impact against unprepared teams. That's not to say that Qwilfish is one of the best choices in UU, because it obviously isn't, just a tad underrated IMO.
 
Qwillfish doesn't have the Ghost-typing that Froslass has to take on Ambipom. Qwilfish is just a poor Spiker, I'd rather have Glalie or Cactrune do it.
 
franky said:
Qwillfish doesn't have the Ghost-typing that Froslass has to take on Ambipom. Qwilfish is just a poor Spiker, I'd rather have Glalie or Cactrune do it.
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Huh? Froslass was just Taunt and/or Pursuit bait for Ambipom. There's no doubt that Froslass was better at it, but Ambipom wasn't the reason as if anything she was even more screwed over by it. Ambipom isn't even necessarily that big a threat, you can just bring in a CB Spiritomb and Pursuit its ass. No more worries.

As far as Glalie and Cacturne are concerned, Glalie lacks Destiny Bond and any good resistances, whereas Cacturne is dirt slow and also suffers from a bad typing. Aside from something like Chansey, I struggle to think of anything that they can reliably switch into and set up on. Not as many as Qwilfish I bet though.
 
I've been using a Mixzard lead and it's seksi.

It's especially useful for Stall teams that lead with Omastar. For some reason most of them stay in and get OHKO'd by Hidden Power Grass. They then go to Chansey, who usually Toxic/Thunder Wave only to be OHKO'd by a Focus Punch. The rest can all be picked off by his very powerful Fire Blast. With a bit of entry hazards he can get the 2HKO on Milotic too. Other Fires are annoying, especially Arcanine and Moltres, makes me wish I could change to Hidden Power Rock in the middle of a match. >:)
 
d2m said:
1600 Rating or CRE?

Then I'd have to stop experimenting and actually play with some of my better teams :(
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Rating.

To find your rating take both numbers and add them together, then divide by 2.

To find your deviaton take both numbers and subtract them from eachother, then divide by 2.
 
Jabba, from what you told me, the process will consist of nominating suspects and them immediately voting on them afterwards. Will SEXP be involved in the formula, and will paragraphs still be required for those who wish to vote?
 
Erazor said:
Agreeing about Yanmega, but why exactly is SR a given? This isn't OU. Foresight Hitmontop will get a spin off no matter how many ghosts you carry, and Donphan is likely to spin as well, seeing as it can take out Ghost switch ins with Assurance.

edit: also long time no see in UU, Heysup :)
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i was sort of saying that you don't need to carry a spinner + Yanmega, meaning I don't really care if you say "Stealth Rocks are always on the field" as the only reason they are on the field is because I don't need to spin them off for Yanmega to fill the offensive characteristic.
 
I'm unfamiliar with the laddering system because I'm barely on it, but anything higher than 1600 is good right? or is it lower? The same goes for 55 anything higher is good or is it lower?
 
franky said:
I'm unfamiliar with the laddering system because I'm barely on it, but anything higher than 1600 is good right? or is it lower? The same goes for 55 anything higher is good or is it lower?
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Rating should be higher and deviation lower I believe.

Thats what its been like for all tests I've done.
 
franky said:
I'm unfamiliar with the laddering system because I'm barely on it, but anything higher than 1600 is good right? or is it lower? The same goes for 55 anything higher is good or is it lower?
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When you check your record on Shoddy, there's a "Rating" field with two numbers. Add those numbers together and then divide by 2; the resulting number must be equal to or higher than 1600. As for deviation, take those same two numbers, subtract the first one from the second one, and divide the answer by 2; this number must be 55 or lower.
 
Franky - Higher Rating and Lower Deviation is good.

Now to actually write the nomination for Banmega- sorry, Yanmega.
 
Thanks people, I have 1800 rating and 70 deviation lol :\
 
Erazor said:
Franky - Higher Rating and Lower Deviation is good.

Now to actually write the nomination for Banmega- sorry, Yanmega.
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I would too, but I didn't realized I'd utterly tanked my rating by playing with 2-3 shit (but fun) teams. Now I gotta make it up.
 
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