MissyM is only 2x resist to megahorn.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Community Create-A-Team: Heracross (OU)
- Thread starter Stagnant
- Start date
- Status
MissyM is only 2x resist to megahorn.
From what I can tell, the usage would be something like, come in on Blissey or TTar or something thats going to run. Smack the switch-in and determine your check/counter. Eliminate said counter. Repeat until you feel safe swords dancing.
That sounds like fun...May we try on shoddy now?
@RegalStar: Even better, I only brough Missy into the calcs in the first place because I thought she was part flying O_o
@YoshithePirate: Basically, Heracross' advantages are resistances to ground and fighting...and that's about it.
@YoshithePirate: Basically, Heracross' advantages are resistances to ground and fighting...and that's about it.
I voted Swarm, however, after thinking it through some more, I think the Swords Dance set with Flame Orb would be the easiest and most beneficial to form a team around. Both sets are screwed by priority, but the Flame Orb set has wallbreaking power that can beat Rotom-A and Skarmory, as well as switch into a single layer of Toxic Spikes if the opportunity arrises. With a Jolly nature he gets the jump on neutral base 90s, notably Adamant Lucario, so investing in speed(rather than nurfing it for a Trick Room team) is definitely best. Base 100s need to run a neutral nature + 240 speed EVs, or 136 Speed EVs with a boosting nature, to outrun it. Only 14.2% of Celebi run the necessary EVs to outrun, but more importantly, only 25.6% of Zapdos run enough speed. Most Rotom-H run a Bold nature as well, meaning it is unlikely to outspeed Heracross.
Another point, someone pointed out earlier(can't remember if it was in this thread or the other) was that the SubSalac set really only has 1 chance to sweep, if it can't pull it off, that is essentially a wasted slot on your team. The Flame Orb set can almost guarantee you a kill.
Another point, someone pointed out earlier(can't remember if it was in this thread or the other) was that the SubSalac set really only has 1 chance to sweep, if it can't pull it off, that is essentially a wasted slot on your team. The Flame Orb set can almost guarantee you a kill.
Just off the top of my head, Sleep Talk Hera could make a good switch in to the now popular Roserade lead, as it resists Leaf Storm and wouldn't mind Sleep Powder. Rose leads do often run HP Fire, but with proper EV investment and base 95 SpDef, maybe..
Timid Rose, 252 SpAtk using HP Fire on Max HP Hera:
349 Atk vs 226 Def & 364 HP (70 Base Power): 156 - 184 (42.86% - 50.55%)
Timid Rose, 252 SpAtk using HP Fire on Max HP / Max SpDef Careful Hera:
349 Atk vs 317 Def & 364 HP (70 Base Power): 112 - 132 (30.77% - 36.26%)
Timid Rose, 252 SpAtk using Leaf Storm on Max HP Hera:
349 Atk vs 226 Def & 364 HP (140 Base Power): 116 - 137 (31.87% - 37.64%)
Timid Rose, 252 SpAtk using Leaf Storm on Max HP / Max SpDef Careful Hera:
349 Atk vs 317 Def & 364 HP (140 Base Power): 83 - 98 (22.80% - 26.92%)
Heracross with no Atk EVs and neutral nature using Megahorn on Min/Min Rose:
286 Atk vs 146 Def & 261 HP (120 Base Power): 253 - 298 (96.93% - 114.18%)
Heracross with no Atk EVs and neutral nature using Stone Edge on Min/Min Rose:
286 Atk vs 146 Def & 261 HP (100 Base Power): 141 - 166 (54.02% - 63.60%)
Some food for thought...
EDIT: Those Hera calcs don't factor in the possible Guts boost from absorbing Sleep Powder.
I think that any subsalac or reversal set can be eliminated because they need to be low on HP to work and they just die to Scizor's Bullet Punch, so they'll never be able to sweep.
I think the best use for Heracross is a CB set with CC/Megahorn/Stone Edge/Sleep Talk. I've used this set before to great success, back when hera didn't have Scizor as competition anyways. Obviously CC and Megahorn are great stabs, and stone edge is good for coverage on flying types. The thing that really makes this set ridiculously powerful is Sleep Talk. Switch in on Smeargle/Brelooms spore, or Sleep Powder whatever and proceed to OHKO everything with your stab moves coming off of a 700+ attack stat. Because you don't have rest, Sleep Talk will ALWAYS pick an attack meaning that you won't get screwed like you would by a resttalk set.
For those who say CB Scizor outclasses CB Hera, consider this: Scizor has a 70 base power stab and a 40 base power stab (60 with tech) coming off of a 591 attack stat. Heracross has two 120 base power stabs coming off of a 766 attack stat. (when asleep of course)
One last note: There is still one pokemon that completely walls this set, that pokemon being Gliscor of course. For that reason it can be beneficial to use something like a wallbreaking mix DDtar that will lure it in and kill it.
I think the best use for Heracross is a CB set with CC/Megahorn/Stone Edge/Sleep Talk. I've used this set before to great success, back when hera didn't have Scizor as competition anyways. Obviously CC and Megahorn are great stabs, and stone edge is good for coverage on flying types. The thing that really makes this set ridiculously powerful is Sleep Talk. Switch in on Smeargle/Brelooms spore, or Sleep Powder whatever and proceed to OHKO everything with your stab moves coming off of a 700+ attack stat. Because you don't have rest, Sleep Talk will ALWAYS pick an attack meaning that you won't get screwed like you would by a resttalk set.
For those who say CB Scizor outclasses CB Hera, consider this: Scizor has a 70 base power stab and a 40 base power stab (60 with tech) coming off of a 591 attack stat. Heracross has two 120 base power stabs coming off of a 766 attack stat. (when asleep of course)
One last note: There is still one pokemon that completely walls this set, that pokemon being Gliscor of course. For that reason it can be beneficial to use something like a wallbreaking mix DDtar that will lure it in and kill it.
Great. Heracross learns Vacuum Wave to use off of his pitiful Base 40 SpA... Whose brilliant idea was that?
I would just like to add that the SD + Flame Orb set ko's Gliscor after an SD with Facade. While Sleep Talk has some nice benefits, it only has a 1/3 chance to hit a pokemon with the right attack while asleep, and most people aren't too happy about taking that risk. If this team has Magnezone (which I highly recommend!) then the biggest revengers to Luke (Lucario and Scizor) are instanly eliminated. Just my thoughts on it.
The Flame Orb SD set doesn't have to worry about Gliscor, because iirc it OHKOs with Facade.
EDIT: Damn, ninja'd by Justinawe
If this team has Magnezone (which I highly recommend!) then the biggest revengers to Luke (Lucario and Scizor) are instanly eliminated. Just my thoughts on it.
i would also have suggested scarf magnezone, since it eliminates scizor, lucario, and also threats like gengar and latias
i would also have suggested scarf magnezone, since it eliminates scizor, lucario, and also threats like gengar and latias
How does it take out Latias exactly? xD
I'd think that a lefties SD set is worth discussing. I'm assuming there is gonna be a shit load of para support to beat offensive teams in which case the extra power from FO won't matter much. The extra bulk allows you to get multiple SDs on something like Swampert while you aren't easily revenged by a hidden priority user late game. Sure you have less power and don't beat most of your counters, but isn't the point of the rest of the team to clear out those counters. Anyways the FO set with SD/CC/Facade is clearly gonna win so meh.
Whoah, I'm amazed that my thread was somehow able to get the ball rolling on this! The original thread was mine in response to that Smog article. Anywho, thanks to whoever decided this would be a good idea! I'm excited to see the finished project. =]
On topic, I have to say Heracross has always been one of my favorites to use in competitive play. I've tried out a ton of different sets for the guy, my favorite stand alone set being the choice scarfer. Coming in and outspeeding things like Jolteon and Dugtrio is awesome. If you guys aren't interested in the banded sets, however, I give my recommendation to the Bulk Up set. Sure, Flame Orb Cross has tremendous power, but without paralysis support or Trick Room (which I've almost never seen used to great success), we know he isn't outspeeding much in the way of fast attackers. His health just does down too fast to do much in SS and bullet punch hell.
Somehow I can see a sturdy bulk up sweeper getting somewhere, with a lot of support from its team mates. Megahorn/Bulkup/Restalk, with lefties and a very sp.def. set. Gliscor (without AA?) I'm fairly certain it can set up on, but stuff like Scarftran is scary... maybe we could lure it out with Scizor or Forry? (T-spikes from Forry would be very helpful to Heracross in dealing with bulky waters/grounds)
What do you think? It might also be interesting to incorporate Rain Dance in some way, to get rid of SS or hail... that team that was posted earlier was fascinating IMO.
On topic, I have to say Heracross has always been one of my favorites to use in competitive play. I've tried out a ton of different sets for the guy, my favorite stand alone set being the choice scarfer. Coming in and outspeeding things like Jolteon and Dugtrio is awesome. If you guys aren't interested in the banded sets, however, I give my recommendation to the Bulk Up set. Sure, Flame Orb Cross has tremendous power, but without paralysis support or Trick Room (which I've almost never seen used to great success), we know he isn't outspeeding much in the way of fast attackers. His health just does down too fast to do much in SS and bullet punch hell.
Somehow I can see a sturdy bulk up sweeper getting somewhere, with a lot of support from its team mates. Megahorn/Bulkup/Restalk, with lefties and a very sp.def. set. Gliscor (without AA?) I'm fairly certain it can set up on, but stuff like Scarftran is scary... maybe we could lure it out with Scizor or Forry? (T-spikes from Forry would be very helpful to Heracross in dealing with bulky waters/grounds)
What do you think? It might also be interesting to incorporate Rain Dance in some way, to get rid of SS or hail... that team that was posted earlier was fascinating IMO.
Maybe Jirachi can work along with Heracross passing Wish to the Flame Orb set, and Jirachi can come in againist Scizor and Lucario and OHKO with Fire Punch and outspeed both
I've said this before and I'll say it again: Priority + U-Turn are far superior to 2 base 120 STAB moves. Of the top 20 pokemon in OU, 14 of them resist one of Heracross's STAB moves.
I just want to say first of all that a choiced sweeper is an oxymoron. As long as there is even one pokemon other than Shedinja that isn't 2HKO'd by any one move on the set, the choiced pokemon cannot pull off a sweep. Therefore, I object to choice band, choice specs and choice scarf. Good for revenge kills; the worst items for sweeping.
Given that Heracross has neither good defences nor particularly good resistances and it is obvious that there are things it can do that other pokemon like Scizor and Lucario can do better, we should be trying to abuse Heracross' unique feature(s) from the get-go. The first thing we therefore need to ask is what can Heracross do that no other pokemon can, or what does Heracross have that no other pokemon does?
Given that Heracross has neither good defences nor particularly good resistances and it is obvious that there are things it can do that other pokemon like Scizor and Lucario can do better, we should be trying to abuse Heracross' unique feature(s) from the get-go. The first thing we therefore need to ask is what can Heracross do that no other pokemon can, or what does Heracross have that no other pokemon does?
what about Rock Polish from Gliscor? he can wall both just be careful with Ice Punch Lucario
Guts is what Heracross has over anything that "outclasses" him so as long as guts is taken into consideration that I feel that we attempting to satisfy Heracross' niche'. For swarm, we would need something to cancel Sandstorm/ Hail. And if we did that MOP Cross would be a better canidate. Odds are SD Flame Orb is what we will be working with but that is not a sure thing... as of right now.
Anyways, here are some calcs...
252+ CB Scizor Bullet Punch vs 0/0 neutral Cross= 46.18% - 54.15%
252+ LO X-Speed Lucario vs " "= 47.18% - 55.48%
" " Stone Edge Lucario vs " " = 58.80% - 69.10%
So Priority Revenge isn't that big of an issue IMO.
Anyways, here are some calcs...
252+ CB Scizor Bullet Punch vs 0/0 neutral Cross= 46.18% - 54.15%
252+ LO X-Speed Lucario vs " "= 47.18% - 55.48%
" " Stone Edge Lucario vs " " = 58.80% - 69.10%
So Priority Revenge isn't that big of an issue IMO.
There is no way both of the priority calcs are correct. Scizor already has higher base attack than Lucario(394>350), Choice Band > Life Orb(1.5 > 1.3), and STAB Technician Bullet Punch > Extremespeed(90 > 80). One of those is wrong, I think the Scizor one, it should do more than that.
If we are to abuse Guts, then the only way to secure the Guts boost is by running Flame Orb or Toxic Orb.
Also, I recalculated the 252 attack Adamant CB Scizor's Bullet Punch: 68.11% - 80.73% - after a CC drop it's a guaranteed OHKO on 0/0 neutral Heracross. Therefore priority moves are a thing to worry about when running Heracross.
Also, I recalculated the 252 attack Adamant CB Scizor's Bullet Punch: 68.11% - 80.73% - after a CC drop it's a guaranteed OHKO on 0/0 neutral Heracross. Therefore priority moves are a thing to worry about when running Heracross.
- Status