CAP 9 CAP 9 - Main Typing Discussion

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Walvren said:
No, the whole point of secondaries is to force switches. If you want to break walls, get another pokemon. There are plenty of pokemon out there.

Although Steels in general don't punish, you're forgetting that its secondary typing hasn't been decided, nor its ability. The way I see it, we need to look at resistances and immunities provided by one type, not the offensive potential.
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Weaknesses and offensive potential are the factors you seem to be excluding though, and weaknesses are more important than resistances. You get to switch in on a resistance once, weaknesses can be exploited indefinitely. Cyclohm was pretty damn bulky and had plenty of things to switch into in theory, but the omnipresent threats of Earthquake and Ice Beam limited it more than I expected.

In regards to offensive potential, Steel is a bad attacking type. The reason Metagross uses Steel attacks is it has an immense attack to back them up. Scizor uses Bullet Punch solely because it has priority. You will never see a Scizor utilizing Metal Claw or Steel Wing. Only Rock and Ice pokemon have anything to be worried about, everything else largely ignores Steel STAB. The fact Water, Fire, Electric, and Steel resist it doesn't help its case. Steel and Dark resist Dark, there are pretty simple ways to get around that particular limitation.

Basically what I'm trying to get down to is what does Steel actually do when in against a real-live secondary effect user. A lot of them are bulky waters and bulky grounds, the former of which shrug its attacks off and the latter chase it away. Dark has a niche with punishing Trick, what exactly does Steel do to that Blissey, Swampert, Blastoise, or Hippowdon after it soaks up a Toxic? What does it do on the inevitable switch to a Rotom forme if they want to keep hazards up? If it can't mount an offense, how is it not just a switch-in that invariably weakens your secondary stopper?

I understand we have secondary types and abilities to cover the holes, but right now that argument applies equally to both Dark and Steel, and Steel needs more work in my estimation to be effective. The secondary damage immunities come at the price of some pretty steep weaknesses and paper offensive incompetence.
 
um let's not discuss a secondary type until we get the first one figured out

Dark is clearly the best here. You are all much too obsessed with weaknesses and resistances. So what if it resists rock? People are not going to stop using stealth rock just because you introduce a pokemon that resists it. Dark, on the other hand, genuinely punishes secondary move users - most of the discussion has been about Trick, but consider any secondary move. Imagine switching into Celebi's Leech Seed and using a move like Encore. Encore + Pursuit (for the sake of example) is absolutely devastating to any slow user of secondary moves that doesn't resist Dark (and few of them do, as we've discussed).

Steel has some good resistances, but at the end of the day, it's not going to stop the secondary.
 
Although weaknesses can be exploited indefinitely, wouldn't that mean switching? Which you'd obviously be prepared for... You can't determine much without the secondary type and the same goes for Dark.

As for offensive potential, it is still being determined whether it will be an offensive pokemon or not. Also, secondary type plays yet another huge part in this.

Using existing Steel types, maybe they do have a problem against secondaries. Maybe a Toxic just won't cover it against Blissey/Hippowdon etc but isn't this CAP about staying in the battle so that secondaries lose their meaning? Also, this might be a turning point in the CAP metagame, to make a Steel type that CAN do something against secondaries. And this is what secondary typing is going to help with.

Umbreon Dan said:
um let's not discuss a secondary type until we get the first one figured out

Dark is clearly the best here. You are all much too obsessed with weaknesses and resistances. So what if it resists rock? People are not going to stop using stealth rock just because you introduce a pokemon that resists it. Dark, on the other hand, genuinely punishes secondary move users - most of the discussion has been about Trick, but consider any secondary move. Imagine switching into Celebi's Leech Seed and using a move like Encore. Encore + Pursuit (for the sake of example) is absolutely devastating to any slow user of secondary moves that doesn't resist Dark (and few of them do, as we've discussed).

Steel has some good resistances, but at the end of the day, it's not going to stop the secondary.
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You haven't quite vindicated that Steels won't stop the secondary. Steels WILL stop the secondary through sturdiness and resilience but for Dark, it'll just be forced to switch out and if your opponent can play around it, Dark CAP9 can potentially become a dead weight.
 
The whole point of this concept is to stop the secondary. That doesn't mean stop the secondary user, its stopping the secondary effects. This can be achieved in tons of ways, but in general it seemed like the general 'agreement' was this pokemon would counter trick and be able to run rapid spin, along with have some way to avoid status.

Dark is one of the most balanced typings in the game, with only two weaknesses and super effective attacks. It may be a useful type, offensively, but for the purposes of this CAP, it doesn't really 'stop the secondary'. In fact, relying on the ability to do this leaves even less room to maneuver then if we try to deal with it early on. I completely agree that Dark works quite well to dispatch Trick users and a pursuit STAB is incredibly appealing, but we have to look at what Dark would actually do.

Its neutral to stealth rock, spikes, has no status immunities, takes damage from sandstorm, hail, and every form of secondary damage there is. That really bad on a pokemon thats designed to switch in on those forms of secondary damage, and get rid of them. Of course the Dark type has a few utility things that are incredibly useful, namely Rapid Spin blockers will fall to one or two Paybacks and you can play mind games with Pursuit, probably dispatching a rapid spin blocker, and entirely breaking a stall strategy.

I support Dark for main typing, but it seems to me we're locking the secondary type into something defensive. In fact, Dark/Steel seems the best way to go, giving the best parts of both Dark and Steel, offensive and defensive. Its also very balanced. 4x weakness to fighting is something that this pokemon will have to deal with. And lets be honest, have any other types been seriously considered? Ground is okay, but the same limitations for Dark apply to it, except Ground is half as useful against ghosts and trickers. Poison is heavily defensive, but immunity to poison is nice, although Steel gets it. Flying really doesn't work. See Honchkrow. Why isn't it in OU? Yeah.

Anyway thats my input on there.
 
Hm... when it comes to stopping secondary effects, the two biggest things we're looking at are residual damage effects (sandstorm, leech seed, poison, burn), and entry hazards. And to a lesser extent, screens. Steel stops a lot of these (sandstorm, poison, and reduces SR damage) and Flying stops a good deal as well (spikes and toxic spikes). However, just personally being immune to these effects doesn't accomplish us much. Instead, we're going to want something that can remove these effects. This is really only accomplished with a few moves: Rapid Spin, Brick Break, and Heal Bell/Aromatherapy. As a ghost being present negates the first two of these, I might suggest that our typing be one which can hit ghosts super effectively. The threat of switching into a STAB Shadow Ball/Crunch will make most Rotoms think twice before attempting to Spin/Break Block. Of course, ability is going to play a large role in which of these two types will be better. If we chose to give this, say, Scrappy, then Dark is much less useful of a main type. On the other hand, if we choose to give it something like Magic Guard, then Flying/Steel is much less useful as a type.

I think there's a lot more possibility behind a Dark type, however, so that's where I cast my nomination.
 
Steel heavily depends on its secondary typing/ability to be more effective than, say, Dark as the main typing, so it's not the best choice. It stops Toxic/Sandstorm and resists Stealth Rock, but nothing else. Dark threatens Trickers, and as long as it is able to utilize a Tricked item (bar Toxic Orb or something not usually Tricked deliberately), it'll give Trickers a second thought about switching in. Add to the fact that most Trickers are Psychic and you have a powerful weapon to threaten Trickers, along with it being neutral to Stealth Rock which allows it to switch in multiple times and not worry too much about residual damage. Secondary typing/ability wouldn't be so important to the CAP if it can do all that with just one type under its belt.
 
The most common forms of secondary:

1: Stealth Rock, also hard to stop without Rapid Spin, so a type resistant to it is a must.
2: Toxic: Definitly the 2nd most common. Weapon of stall, and Toxic Spikes.
3: Para/Burn: Mainly from Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave.
4: Sandstorm: Tyranitar and Hippowdon's use makes Sand quite common

Most other secondaries are not used often enough to be a major issue, other than Leech Seed, which is delt with by switching out, preferably killing the user as well, unlike the ones above. (Barring Natural Cure)

I'm voteing for the Ground type for these reasons:
1: Resists Stealth Rock
2: Immune to Thunder Wave
3: Immune to Sandstorm
4: STAB Earthquake is always useful, and a given on a Ground-type CAP
5: Electric Immunity
6: Unlike Steel, it dosen't have weaknesses to some of the most common types in OU... although the water weakness isn't good, the only secondary those use is Toxic, and occasionaly Taunt.

Dark is a close second, but it dosen't STOP any secondaries, most of what I've heard is 'punishing' secondaries, either by Encore/Persuit, or because most trickers are Psychic types. That fact that all passive damage effects a Dark type as well means it will add up. I'd rather not have CAP9 takeing 37% damage and getting badly poisioned when it comes in against a stall team. 'Punishing' secondaries is not stopping them in the first place, which is what the concept is.
 
IMO for such a specialised Pokemon with so many directions, we can't just consider the "main type" separately, we have to consider both of its types in combination. When you judge a Pokemon for Competitive Battling, you don't look at one type then the other separately, you look at the merits of the type combination.

But on the "main type"...

This discussion is stale now imo, all the arguments for each angle have been put forward and everyone's taken their angle. Now it's just people trying to stand by their own opinion and convince others who are also standing by their opinion and trying to convince them in return etc, when each argument/view seems valid in its own way and there's no clearcut "best" option.

My comparison on the two most prominent types being argued...

Steel

Pros:
-Sandstorm immunity
-Stealth Rock resistance
-Toxic immunity
-TSpikes immunity
-Lots of resistances
Cons:
-Weakness to common attack types
-Nothing on Trick
-Bad attacking type in general (harder to be a threat with)

Dark

Pros:
-STAB Pursuit
-Prominent threat to Trickers
-Only one "relevant" weakness (shared by Steel anyway)
-Good type for threatening secondary users in general
Cons:
-Still affected "normally" by....
--SR
--TSpikes
--Sandstorm
--Toxic

From this, Dark seems more specialised so I'm leaning towards that for the sake of "exploring the metagame". However I can see a problem in it getting TOO specialised and becoming too narrow to be viable. Steel is a lot more generalised and straightforward, so I can understand why people's votes are there too.
 
I'm going to go and suggest Normal.

Normal, as we all know, doesn't quite have anything special going for it, as far as weaknesses and resistances. What it does, however, is allow it to open up for a plethora of support moves. It isn't strange to see a normal type learn moves from each type, whereas it would be somewhat limiting to have many other types. A fine example would be Clefable, though the last thing we really want is a Clefable v2; she's quite fine as is.
 
I believe most of the secondary damage is done by the bulkier Pokemon in the OU metagame (Dusknoir, Celebi, Gliscor, Suicune, Vaporeon, Swampert, Bronzong, Cresselia... I can go on forever here), so we need to find types that can deal damage to all them. I've gone over the types and listed all the Pokemon that they hit SE (Note that Normal isn't here 'cause it doesn't hit anything SE). Here's what I have so far... if I miss anyone or I added someone that shouldn't be here, please let me know

Fire: Bronzong, Celebi, Forretress, Jirachi, Skamory, Kitsunoh, Breloom, Metagross

Water: Gliscor, Hippowdon, Fidgit

Grass: Hippowdon, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, Starmie

Electric: Empoleon, Skamory, Suicune, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Starmie, Togekiss

Ice: Celebi, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Latias, Fidgit, Breloom, Togekiss

Fighting: Blissey, Empoleon, Snorlax, Umbreon, Smeargle

Poison: Celebi, Pyroak, Breloom

Ground: Empoleon, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Fidgit, Kitsunoh, Metagross

Flying: Celebi, Pyroak, Breloom

Psychic: Tentacruel, Fidgit, Breloom, Gengar

Bug: Celebi, Cresselia, Latias, Umbreon, Alakazam, Starmie

Rock: Pyroak, Gyarados, Togekiss

Ghost: Celebi, Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, The Rotoms, Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie

Dragon: Latias

Dark: Celebi, Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, The Rotoms, Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie

Steel: tiddly squat

Alright, not all of them are bulky, but they do utilize secondary moves that don't necessarily deal damage, but have noticeable other effects...

Since Dark does so well in combating the Pokemon above, and thanks to its other merits which have been already mentioned above, I believe it should be the primary typing of choice. While it's true that Fire and Electric can take on more Pokemon that Dark, and Ghost can take on the exact some Pokemon, Fire has a SR weakness which requires a second typing to negate. Plus we've already done an Electric dude *points to Cyclohm*. And Dark can threaten Tricksters better than Ghosts not only 'cause it has STAB pursuit, but also because Ghosts also Trick stuff, and they don't like having to face each other
 
I think we should go with Dark. Trick users in their right mind won't stay in, so you can Pursuit them. Having STAB on Dark Pulse/Crunch ensures that Dusknoir, Latias and friends won't be staying in. You have two weaknesses, and (I know I'm not supposed to be talking about the secendary type, but it's just too good not to mention) we could have a Dark/Ghost with Magic Guard.
 
I think that, since we actually don't know what exactly this CAP will be stopping, practically any main type will do.

Because of this, I'd actually go with as neutral a main type as possible, so that we can be more flexible later on. So I'd prefer choosing Normal.
 
X-Act said:
I think that, since we actually don't know what exactly this CAP will be stopping, practically any main type will do.

Because of this, I'd actually go with as neutral a main type as possible, so that we can be more flexible later on. So I'd prefer choosing Normal.
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Flexible!? You mean "flexible within the bounds of stopping the secondary" dont you? What do you mean normal is neutral? Compared to what? What advantages does Normal give us? Normal just looks arbitrary and out of place and nothing anybody said about it vindicates it at all.

monkymeet said:
I'm going to go and suggest Normal.

Normal, as we all know, doesn't quite have anything special going for it, as far as weaknesses and resistances. What it does, however, is allow it to open up for a plethora of support moves. It isn't strange to see a normal type learn moves from each type, whereas it would be somewhat limiting to have many other types. A fine example would be Clefable, though the last thing we really want is a Clefable v2; she's quite fine as is.
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Typing doesn't dictate what moves it will have. Normal does not mean it WILL have many support moves. I get your point about resistances and weaknesses, but how is it relevant to stopping the secondary?
 
X-Act said:
I think that, since we actually don't know what exactly this CAP will be stopping, practically any main type will do.

Because of this, I'd actually go with as neutral a main type as possible, so that we can be more flexible later on. So I'd prefer choosing Normal.
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Normal doesn't seem to give us anything over Dark. Movepool concerns are generally irrelevant (flavor and all), but the only advantages Normal has are no Bug weak and Ghost immune, the latter of which Dark resists anyways. Dark has Psychic immune, Dark resist, and STAB on Pursuit for getting rid of pesky spin blockers and Trickers. Dark combines well with a lot of other types, too. Dark/Fighting, Dark/Poison, Dark/Ghost, Dark/Flying, Dark/Fire, and Dark/Ground all seem to bring useful immunities/resistances to the table.

Dark seems to be unequivocally better than Normal, unless a Bug weak is really a serious issue.
 
I'm throwing my support towards Dark.

To all of you who advocate for Steel, I think we do not need a defensive type like that. In order to fulfill the concept, CAP9 must be able to switch into those secondary-effect users an threaten them somehow - emphasis on the word threaten. So, this thing has to be offensive. Dark gives us a great STAB type (not only because it gets STAB on Pursuit which is great, but because Dark enjoys a great deal of neutrality, being resisted only by Fighting, Steel and Dark itself), good moves both on the offensive and on the support side (Almost all Dark types get Dark Pulse, Taunt, Torment and one between Night Slash and Crunch). Also, to all of you who fear a Dark CAP9 would have the same issues as Weavile, no one forces us to:

- Not give CAP9 a decent STAB move (80 is the max for Dark, but, you know, secondary types and chance to create a new move are there)
- Not give CAP9 a decent Fire, Ground or Fighting move (which is the reason weavile is utterly walled by Steels)
- Not give CAP9 a decent defensive typing alongside with Dark (Ice really ruins Weavile)
- Not give CAP9 a good ability (Come on, Pressure? On Weavile? Are we serious?)

If there is only a good Dark Pokémon in OU (Tyranitar), this is not because Dark-type is bad, but because Dark-typed Pokémon had been gifted with a gazillon of other issues. Hell, Darkrai is Uber and it does not even have a single "Uber" stat (135 Sp atk certainly is not Uber material in itself). And this is not because of Dark Void. Threw it out and you still have a monster with incredibly powerful Dark Pulses, Nasty Plot, Focus Blast etc. Dark type can be good, that's for sure.
 
zarator said:
I'm throwing my support towards Dark.

To all of you who advocate for Steel, I think we do not need a defensive type like that. In order to fulfill the concept, CAP9 must be able to switch into those secondary-effect users an threaten them somehow - emphasis on the word threaten. So, this thing has to be offensive. Dark gives us a great STAB type (not only because it gets STAB on Pursuit which is great, but because Dark enjoys a great deal of neutrality, being resisted only by Fighting, Steel and Dark itself), good moves both on the offensive and on the support side (Almost all Dark types get Dark Pulse, Taunt, Torment and one between Night Slash and Crunch). Also, to all of you who fear a Dark CAP9 would have the same issues as Weavile, no one forces us to:

- Not give CAP9 a decent STAB move (80 is the max for Dark, but, you know, secondary types and chance to create a new move are there)
- Not give CAP9 a decent Fire, Ground or Fighting move (which is the reason weavile is utterly walled by Steels)
- Not give CAP9 a decent defensive typing alongside with Dark (Ice really ruins Weavile)
- Not give CAP9 a good ability (Come on, Pressure? On Weavile? Are we serious?)

If there is only a good Dark Pokémon in OU (Tyranitar), this is not because Dark-type is bad, but because Dark-typed Pokémon had been gifted with a gazillon of other issues. Hell, Darkrai is Uber and it does not even have a single "Uber" stat (135 Sp atk certainly is not Uber material in itself). And this is not because of Dark Void. Threw it out and you still have a monster with incredibly powerful Dark Pulses, Nasty Plot, Focus Blast etc. Dark type can be good, that's for sure.
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You say we need to threaten, but I say we need to endure. A defensive type like Steel is perfect for stopping the secondary by staying in on the field. Sure you can threaten, but you'll probably switch soon after they do cos they'll Toxic you or you'll get Sand Streamed into submission...

And no one is saying Dark is bad. I mean, there's great support for them in this discussion but, in my opinion and those of others, but Steel has an edge because it has 2 immunities to residual damage which makes it so much easier to stop the secondary.
 
I'm still juggling through the process of deciding, myself, what I want the CaP to be. However, I know there are three types I would like to consider, and as such I will discuss my views on them

Main Typing: Dark

Why Dark?

As Deck Knight has said, Trick seems to be the largest focus for what this CaP should be able to stop. Combining a Dark Typing with Pursuit is a great way to neutralize the threat of trick, seeing as the most common trick users are weak to the Dark Typing. Dealing with something doesn't just mean "Scaring it off" as some would like to believe. Being able to deal with a threat means making sure that it won't, or can't, switch back in after it has seen your pokemon.

Main Typing: Flying

Why Flying?

Flying is easily one of the most useful secondary [or in this case, main] typings in the game. With it, you receive what Flying does best, giving us three important immunities: Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Ground-type moves (Earthquake). Ground type moves litter the metagame, being powerful and effective ways to cause damage. Getting a free switch in is something that a stopping the secondary CaP could utilize well. While Spikes and Toxic Spikes are less common, they are by no means less important. Being immune to them is a high level bonus for any pokemon wishing to switch in repeatedly. The only downside to flying is the weakness to SR, which could be negated almost entirely considering most bird types get the move Roost. This would add even more longevity to the CaP 'mon.

Main Typing: Steel

Why Steel?

Steel is easily one of the best defensive typings in the game, boasting a resistance to Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, Rock moves, Bug, Dark, Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Normal, Psychic, and other Steel types. If that resistance list wasn't impressive enough, it is immune to Toxic and Toxic Spikes. Steel typing would afford it a resistance to two types of secondary damage, and an immunity to two more. That is all with the comfortable defensive bonus I just listed above.

EDIT: Also, I listed Steel last for a reason. I feel that while it provides amply immunities and resistances, it doesn't actually stop the secondary. It just makes the user immune to the secondary itself.

Everything I have listed above is merely for the first typing of course. Infinitely more possibilities are unlocked when the second typing is thrown in. As I said, I'm still not sure on which main type I support, but I at least admire all three of the previously mentioned types: Dark, Steel, and Flying, for all the benefits they provide.
 
I'm leaning towards Dark as well for the reasons mentioned above (STAB Pursuit/Payback etc).

On the other hand, normal is one of the worst types we can give this thing, because it achieves exactly nothing, offensive or defensive, which leaves too much for the other aspects (stats/ability/movepool) to do. Also, given that this concept can be taken so many ways, it's better to have more focus earlier on rather than less.
 
Raikizen said:
As Deck Knight has said, Trick seems to be the largest focus for what this CaP should be able to stop. Combining a Dark Typing with Pursuit is a great way to neutralize the threat of trick, seeing as the most common trick users are weak to the Dark Typing. Dealing with something doesn't just mean "Scaring it off" as some would like to believe. Being able to deal with a threat means making sure that it won't, or can't, switch back in after it has seen your pokemon.
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Of course, it would be lovely to stop Trick, but any way to do it is a bit too specialised. Once we've got Dark, what next? What other secondaries can you stop? With secondary typing, Ground is probably your best bet, but I just don't see much promise.

Raikizen said:
EDIT: Also, I listed Steel last for a reason. I feel that while it provides amply immunities and resistances, it doesn't actually stop the secondary. It just makes the user immune to the secondary itself.
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Being immune is basically stopping the secondary unless you're fainted. And being Steel type, you're not going to just faint like you're a goat or something.
 
Walvren said:
You say we need to threaten, but I say we need to endure. A defensive type like Steel is perfect for stopping the secondary by staying in on the field. Sure you can threaten, but you'll probably switch soon after they do cos they'll Toxic you or you'll get Sand Streamed into submission...

Even if they switch short after, chances are they did already their job, i.e. laying entry hazards, Trick you etc. Even if you are immune to some of these, like Trick, they can still threaten your other mates, especially in the case of entry hazards. If resisting/being immune to entry hazards and having rapid spin along with useful resistances would be enough, then Claydol would be OU.

If you want to stop the trouble of entry hazards and Trick you need to:
1) Have Rapid Spin
2) Have a way to pummel those ghosts
3) Have a way to kill those Trickers reliably
As you can see, Dark fits categories 2 and 3 much better than Steel

And no one is saying Dark is bad. I mean, there's great support for them in this discussion but, in my opinion and those of others, but Steel has an edge because it has 2 immunities to residual damage which makes it so much easier to stop the secondary.

It makes it much easier to "avoid the secondary", not to "stop" it. If you can't remove the threat but only being immune to it, your teammates will benefit very little from your presence - especially in the case of entry hazards.
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The point is that Steel's advantage over Dark can be maintained because a secondary typing will allow for punishing while AT THE SAME TIME, it can be immune to the already mentioned secondaries. Dark, on the other hand will have typing some issues when looking for a secondary type and is too specialised for Trick.

As you can see, it is about defense when we're talking about determining one type without knowing the other. Steel can work well when coupled with almost any type while Dark has fewer choices.
 
Okay, what makes you think that a Normal-type Pokemon cannot get any Dark moves? I think you're assuming that, since a Pokemon needs to combat Dark-weak Pokemon, it must be a Dark-type Pokemon. What kind of reasoning is that?

The typing of a Pokemon affects mostly the defensive aspect of the Pokemon. STAB really doesn't matter that much. The offensive part of the Pokemon is mainly covered by movepool, not typing. I chose Normal because it barely has any weaknesses. Weaknesses matter much more than resists, and, if we want certain resists, there's always the secondary typing to look into.
 
zarator said:
Which issues?
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Well, its not a huge issue, but it's the matter of weaknesses. In trying to gain immunities to certain secondaries, you have weakness issues. We know we can't pair Dark up with Grass because of a double weakness and Grass has a buttload of weaknesses.
Dark/Steel has a double weakness to fighting.
Dark/Ground won't be too bad, but I've voiced my opinion on that one.
Dark/Fire can get hit hard with the amount of Rock and Ground moves out there.
And so on.

While the whole typing thing isnt a big issue, it's still something Steel has over Dark.

Note: Dark/Poison is (more than) viable but for the purposes of me supporting Steel, its just an observation and nothing more.

 
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