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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Secondary Typing Discussion

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Admiral_Stalfos19 said:
I believe most of the secondary damage is done by the bulkier Pokemon in the OU metagame (Dusknoir, Celebi, Gliscor, Suicune, Vaporeon, Swampert, Bronzong, Cresselia... I can go on forever here), so we need to find types that can deal damage to all them. I've gone over the types and listed all the Pokemon that they hit SE (Note that only Fighting, Ground and Poison are here 'cause they're the only choices in the poll).

These are the Pokemon that Dark currently hits for super effective damage

Celebi, Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, The Rotoms, Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie

These ones below are the additional Pokemon that get hit SE for each secondary type

Dark/Fighting: Blissey, Empoleon, Snorlax, Umbreon, Smeargle

Dark/Poison: Pyroak, Breloom

Dark/Ground: Empoleon, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Fidgit, Kitsunoh, Metagross, Bronzong*, Skamory*

*These guys only get hit by Ground attacks when Gravity is active

As you can see, Dark/Ground STABs hit more of the current metagame than Dark/Fighting, even if Gravity is not present. This fact, along with the T-Wave and Sandstorm immunity, is why I'm casting my vote for Ground as the secondary type of choice
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Minor Nitpick: Other CAPs should NEVER be part of any analysis of CAP9 because our playtesting process inherently exlcudes them as to get the best test results for the standard OU Metagame. Which removes Fidgit and Kitsunoh from that listing. Fighting is also notable for hitting Skarmory twice as hard when it uses Roost.

Also, shouldn't Heatran be on both of those lists? SR/RoarTran isn't totally out there.
 
Admiral_Stalfos19 said:
I believe most of the secondary damage is done by the bulkier Pokemon in the OU metagame (Dusknoir, Celebi, Gliscor, Suicune, Vaporeon, Swampert, Bronzong, Cresselia... I can go on forever here), so we need to find types that can deal damage to all them. I've gone over the types and listed all the Pokemon that they hit SE (Note that only Fighting, Ground and Poison are here 'cause they're the only choices in the poll).

These are the Pokemon that Dark currently hits for super effective damage

Celebi, Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, The Rotoms, Alakazam, Gengar, Starmie

These ones below are the additional Pokemon that get hit SE for each secondary type

Dark/Fighting: Blissey, Empoleon, Snorlax, Umbreon, Smeargle

Dark/Poison: Pyroak, Breloom

Dark/Ground: Empoleon, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Fidgit, Kitsunoh, Metagross, Bronzong*, Skamory*

*These guys only get hit by Ground attacks when Gravity is active

As you can see, Dark/Ground STABs hit more of the current metagame than Dark/Fighting, even if Gravity is not present. This fact, along with the T-Wave and Sandstorm immunity, is why I'm casting my vote for Ground as the secondary type of choice
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But Empoleon can tear through CAP9 if it's an Agility version, Tentacruel has a solid STAB Surf that should 2HKO unless CAP9 is VERY bulky, Jirachi can always U-Turn for SE damage. Ground also opens up Celebi, Starmie and the Rotoms with SE attacks as well as Latias to fight back and possibly win due to good speed and strong attacks.

I cannot understand this rationale...I guess we'll agree to disagree.
 
Deck Knight said:
Minor Nitpick: Other CAPs should NEVER be part of any analysis of CAP9 because our playtesting process inherently exlcudes them as to get the best test results for the standard OU Metagame. Which removes Fidgit and Kitsunoh from that listing. Fighting is also notable for hitting Skarmory twice as hard when it uses Roost.

Also, shouldn't Heatran be on both of those lists? SR/RoarTran isn't totally out there.
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Ground does that every same thing. Both hit Skarmory for SE damage while it Roosts.
 
Naxte said:
...What?
*Player switches out CAP9!*
*Opponent used one of five weaknesses!*
*CAP9 dies!*
*Opponent spams status everywhere!*

Yeah... Not seeing how that's supposed to work; CAP9 is just easily disposed of, and then things are easy-street. It won't be stopping anything, since it won't be able to stay alive long enough to do so.
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Discourage people from relying on secondary effects and by extension encourage people to rely more on pure damage. More weaknesses mean more ways to attack it directly, which encourages people to KO CAP9 rather than rely on secondary effects. In this way, we may not even need many more immunities beyond Thunder Wave.

OK, five weaknesses may be a bit much but one (as Dark/Poison would give) or two (as Dark/Fighting would give) is too little.
 
This is kinda why I was against the Dark type and focus of persuit...

Player switches in CAP9!
Foe uses Trick!
CAP9 Recived Choice (Insert here)
CAP9 used Persuit
Foe Fainted!
Foe sends in Gyarados/Salamance/Metagross/Lucario ect.
CAP 9 can't do anything back, so has to switch out!
Foe sets up!
GG

In other words, better to have weaknesses, when CAP9 is set up bait anyway, when it comes to the reason why we chose the Dark type. The Ground type allows it to take on common status users outside of Persuiting Trick users, far better than the Fighting type could ever take on Psychics and Ghosts.

And, overall, 5 weaknesses is bad, but 3 resists and 2 immunities is enough to counter-balance it, especially when this CAP should encourage offense.
 
...how did this become a war of resistances and SE?

seriously people, if we go based on the concept, then shouldn't the argument for ground be SS and TW immunity, and possible chance at having Sand Veil (which mostly screws status moves)? what about poison's TS immunity and ability to threaten subseeders?

fighting only have the SR resistance on its side, so i find it to be the weakest choice of the three that are up on the poll.

(personally, i would've liked dark/psychic, but alas, i was at work and thus was unable to fight for it)
 
(same as Ferron, never got to suggest Dark/Psychic)

I like both main options a good deal - Ground has the SR resistance, SS immunity, and gets SE hits on notable Trick user Jirachi, as well as Heatran and Metagross. The immunity to Thunder Wave and the easy switch-in on Electric attacks don't exactly hurt, either.

Fighting, on the other hand, has the Stealth Rock resistance as well, along with providing more in terms of offensive power and generally having less weaknessers to exploit.

Hmm....
 
PurpurealSunshine said:
I did suggest Dark/Psychic. It got shot down pretty fast.
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only two people disagreeing with it is not being shot down. i would've brought up the fact that a single immunity and weakness makes it similar to normal types, but with better STAB options and good precedence for various abilities.
 
I think that Fighting would be a great secondary. Awesome Dual STAB and it leaves flexibility for the ability to stop the secondaries.

Resistance to SR is also a plus.
 
I vote Poison because of all the reasons stated prior, and:

Dark types generally have a very high attack stat (IE. Tyranitar, Weavile, Absol)

Because of this, despite not having STAB, EQ/Brick Break will still have decent damage, so you aren't losing much from Fighting/Earthquake (Assuming that they have EQ/Brick Break or Super Power)

In addition, Poison absorbs spikes, immune to toxic, only 1 weakness, along with a strong stab moves (Gunk Shot, Cross Poison, and Poison Jab for physical, Sludge Bomb for special) although having Horrible Coverage.

In addition, we don't have to worry about priority moves for this guy since it probably will get sucker punch for being a dark
 
Pi dimension, you forget one thing: This is CAP. Where great, special, pure rock types and speedy steel types exist. It does not matter what the "precidense" is. It matters only what our choices are.
 
Matt, we get to CHOOSE whether we want to listen to precedence or not, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it completely since we are trying to make as legitimate a poke as possible.
 
Frankly, I don't really think you appreciate what a weak attack type Fighting is. Not that it hasn't got type coverage, but it lacks powerful moves. Arghonaut has base 110 attack and STAB on Brick Break, but it hits like a little girl.

ferron said:
seriously people, if we go based on the concept, then shouldn't the argument for ground be SS and TW immunity, and possible chance at having Sand Veil (which mostly screws status moves)? what about poison's TS immunity and ability to threaten subseeders?
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being immune to secondary moves is not "stopping the secondary". Just because you introduce a new ground-type into the metagame, people aren't going to just stop using sand stream and thunder wave. As for threatening sub-seeders, Celebi is threatened by dark, and sceptile and breloom have poor defenses.

also, dark/psychic is pretty horrible. It boasts one immunity and a double weakness to Bug, meaning it can't hope to switch into things like scarf jirachi, all for a whopping zero resistances. it'd be original, but not good.
 
Umbreon Dan said:
Frankly, I don't really think you appreciate what a weak attack type Fighting is. Not that it hasn't got type coverage, but it lacks powerful moves. Arghonaut has base 110 attack and STAB on Brick Break, but it hits like a little girl.
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Close Combat (120 BP), Cross Chop (100 BP), Dynamic Punch (100 BP but I doubt No Guard will be the ability so yeah), Focus Punch (150 BP but it's unreliable), Hammer Arm (100 BP), High Jump Kick (100 BP), and Superpower (120 BP but lowers Atk) are all pretty powerful fighting moves. Sure, they each have drawbacks unlike Earthquake, but I wouldn't say Fighting lacks powerful moves.
 
those moves all have major drawbacks that makes them nearly unusable except in certain situations. physical fighting hasn't got reliable, good moves like earthquake or ice beam.
 
I hope Umbreon Dan is not serious when he says that Fighting lacks powerful moves, as I think that, statistically, Fighting has THE most powerful moves of all types.
 
Umbreon Dan said:
Frankly, I don't really think you appreciate what a weak attack type Fighting is. Not that it hasn't got type coverage, but it lacks powerful moves. Arghonaut has base 110 attack and STAB on Brick Break, but it hits like a little girl.



being immune to secondary moves is not "stopping the secondary". Just because you introduce a new ground-type into the metagame, people aren't going to just stop using sand stream and thunder wave. As for threatening sub-seeders, Celebi is threatened by dark, and sceptile and breloom have poor defenses.

also, dark/psychic is pretty horrible. It boasts one immunity and a double weakness to Bug, meaning it can't hope to switch into things like scarf jirachi, all for a whopping zero resistances. it'd be original, but not good.
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Arghonaut also runs very, very defensive sets. If it went all offense with a Choice Banded Super Power/Waterfall, 252 Atk EVs and Adamant, it would injure stuff (albeit once). Running lower BP moves on defensive Pokemon will disappoint damage wise. Fighting has great neutral coverage, that's the allure, but it needs high BP moves to be truly effective.
 
Umbreon Dan said:
also, dark/psychic is pretty horrible. It boasts one immunity and a double weakness to Bug, meaning it can't hope to switch into things like scarf jirachi, all for a whopping zero resistances. it'd be original, but not good.
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pure psychics have only 2 resistances to make up for their 3 weaknesses, but people still use them. grass has 4 resistances to make up for its 5 weaknesses, but (once again) people still use them. using this logic, celebi should be useless as it has 8 weaknesses, including taking x4 damage from bug, which is no way balance out the 5 resistances.

blissey, also has no resistances and a single weakness, can can be OHKO'd by almost any CC users. yet it is still one of the best pokes in the game. we should also not forget the 2 other pure normals in OU, smeargle and snorlax.

see where this is going? you don't need resistances to make a poke viable. in fact, dark/psychic is decent in the OU metagame where it can hit a total of 12 of the 48 pokes in OU (not including rotom forms, which would make it hit 17/53 or about 32%), and only 7 pokes (umbreon, empoleon, forretress, heatran, magnezone, skarmory and scizor) don't take at least neutral damage from that STAB combo.

in other words, it is perfectly viable.
 
none of those are even relevant. of the three OU pure psychics, azelf isn't used outside of a suicide lead, alakazam is practically uu, and cresselia has godly stats. celebi and breloom are the only grass types in ou. breloom has spore and a massive attack stat, and celebi has fabulous stats and a colossal movepool. also, it has seven weaknesses, not eight.

blissey has outrageous HP and sdef, and snorlax has a nearly perfect stat spread for curse abuse. smeargle's typing doesn't matter in the least as it can't take a hit from any type and doesn't use its STAB. so blissey can't take a close combat? what's your point? it isn't supposed to.

dark was chosen as the first type to punish trick users. dark/psychic completely negates that because of the trick users that carry u-turn, like jirachi.

also, despite pyroak's great stats, it isn't used much at all. one of the biggest complaints, after the rock weakness, is that "it barely resists anything".

close combat isn't usable on anything with a base speed below 100, unless it has good priority, as you are much too easy to revenge kill. aura sphere is a flawless move. too bad it's not a physical attack.

and yeah, i'm serious. it has some high-powered moves, but they all suffer from awful drawbacks. i'd much rather just have a fighting-typed earthquake than stuff like superpower, which is really only usable one time before you have to switch out, or close combat, which all but requires a very high speed stat (which most fighters haven't got)
 
I voted Fighting as the secondary typing for the following reasons:
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  • Dark / Fighting has only 2 weaknesses to: Fighting & Flying. While Fighting is a fairly common attack type, Flying NOT, really only seen on the rare Togekiss and the Brave Bird Skarmory (who doesn't do a lot of damage.).
  • Dark / Fighting sports three 2x resistences, one 4x resistence,and one immunity. It resists Stealth Rock as well.
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  • Fighting as a secondary type is able to hit MANY of the secondary move users Super Effectively such as:
Abomasnow (Snow Warning, Leech Seed)
Blissey (Stealth Rock, Toxic, Thunder Wave)
Cloyster (Spikes, Toxic Spikes)
Drapion (Toxic Spikes)
Empoleon (Stealth Rock)
Heatran (Stealth Rock, Toxic)
Mamoswine (Stealth Rock)
Magnezone (Thunder Wave, Gravity)
Omastar (Spikes)
Skarmory (On The Roost) (Stealth Rock, Spikes)
Tyranitar (Sand Stream, Stealth Rock)

I just listed the ones that are OU or are commonly seen in OU, there are many more. Among these are some of the most common effect users in OU.
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  • Dark / Fighting has not been used before in a type. I think we have more to learn from using a typing combination such as Dark / Fighting then we do a combination that has already been used (Poison / Dark = Drapion & Skuntank, and that typing is essentially the same.)
 
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