Your response shows a complete misunderstanding of what he is trying to say. The Stop the Secondary concept is supposed to encompass a variety of secondary effects, and not just status. By giving cap9 only a status absorbing ability, the concept isn't being followed.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 7a - Ability Discussion
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Your response shows a complete misunderstanding of what he is trying to say. The Stop the Secondary concept is supposed to encompass a variety of secondary effects, and not just status. By giving cap9 only a status absorbing ability, the concept isn't being followed.
Yes, it is being followed. Not to the fullest extent, but it doesn't have to. If CAP9 can stop EVERY secondary indefinitely, then it's too much. Like Kitsunoh being the ultimate scout. It's not the cure-all scout but it's a damn good one. CAP9 should not be a silver bullet for secondary effects but it should be damn good at stopping them and if status is all it stops (while punishing Psychic and Ghost types with Dark attacks) then it will be damn good IMO. There are other ways to be effective though, but Status is an easy and obvious area to address without going overboard.
No, zarator is completely right. He didn't say Scarfchomp's whole argument was invalid, just the part that mentioned other CAPs. CAPs are made for the OU metagame, i.e. the "Playtest" metagame.
No, its being partially followed. Ability isn't the only way to achieve the goals of the concept, its a combination of stats, ability, typing, and movepool. A huge misunderstanding in this thread is that every part of the CAP must completely fulfill the concept, which is totally untrue. A CAP is a combination of many different parts, working towards a common goal.
Take Blissey for example. It's role in the metagame is a special wall. It has sky-high Special Defense and HP, decent Special Attack, and horrendous Defense, Attack, and Speed. It's movepool has healing moves, status moves, and support moves, such as Wish, Protect, Heal Bell, Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Seismic Toss. It's ability allows it to switch out and cure itself of status problems so that Toxic doesn't completely cripple it. It's typing gives it one weakness, one immunity, and neutrality to everything else. However, that's ok since its stats allow Blissey to shrug off special-based neutral hits like nothing. All of these parts working together in unison allow it to be a special wall, not any one specific part.
I completely agree with what you're saying tennis. However, I feel that with CAP9's current typing and stats, it needs a great ability and great movepool to be able to efficiently perform its role of stopping the secondary. Dark/Ground typing leaves it vulnerable to a large amount of special attackers, including Suicune, Mixed Infernape, Celebi, Yanmega... the list keeps going on. Combine that with the average stats CAP9 is receiving, and it won't be around long enough to fulfill its concept. Therefore, it needs to be able to shut down the secondary quickly. I don't want to go into movepool depth, since this isn't the right place, but CAP9 would need plenty of supporting moves to clear out entry hazards, absorb status, etc. CAP9 also needs to be able to stop moves like Encore and Taunt that aren't cleared by normal moves. Without being broken, CAP9 can do that with an ability like Strikes Back.
I get that moves like Encore and Taunt aren't that common in the standard metagame, but I think that including the ability to stop those moves and other moves like Encore and Taunt will help us learn how Pokemon that do normally use those moves are affected.
What? Have you even looked at the stat spread submission thread? I fail to see how the majority of the spreads suggested are "average" in the least, in fact I think that a good portion of them are over the top and unnecessary. In addition, you're still focusing on the ability like it's the be-all end-all. We can make up for shortcomings in the ability with the stats and movepool.
Taunt is extremely common in the standard metagame actually, just look at pokemon like Taunt/U-turn Gliscor, and Bulky Taunt Gyarados.
You're forgetting to mention, every single on of these qualities contributes to it being a special wall. None of them are excessive in any way, and in general they don't permit other uses for blissey: Blissey will always have a specific job, and that is to be a special wall.
The offensive stats of CAP9 are extremely good, but I was looking at the defensive spreads. A lot of them are mediocre defenses+ HUGE HP or average in all of them. If you look at a lot of the damage calcs people are submitting, they would need to invest a lot into their defenses to not get killed off by a strong Special Attack. That also decreases the offensive capability of CAP9. I've only seen a couple of good stat spreads that I liked, and none of them are crowd favorites.
Also, for the ability, it really should be a be-all-end-all in this case. The purpose of CAP is to try to learn something new. If we give CAP9 abilities that only relate to status, we're just creating a new status absorber, not something that can stop stuff like Encore and Taunt. The movepool can provide most of the secondary effects, like Rapid Spin for entry hazards, Heal Bell/Aromatherapy for status, etc. However, nothing that a movepool or stat spread can accomplish is stopping the secondary effects that really aren't stopped in the standard metagame, like Encore, Taunt, etc.
So you don't consider 150/75/75 or 110/95/95 good? Since last I checked Celebi/Jirachi were considered "bulky" at 100/100/100, and both spreads are more defensive than that by a long shot. You really don't need to invest all that much in defenses. Besides, this isn't "stop the primary", this is "stop the secondary".
So by making a new ability we're learning something new about the metagame where this ability doesn't exist, thereby defeating the purpose of learning about the specific metagame!
I liked the 110/95/95, but the 150/75/75 needed lots of defensive investment to take hits well. Also, if CAP9 is going to be stopping the secondary, it needs good defenses to come in and do its job before it gets killed off.
Isn't the new ability concept used by Fidgit and Syclant? How did does not defeat the purpose of learning about the metagame?
Also, Deck Knight's ability will allow CAP to learn something about the metagame- how important these secondary effects such as Encore and Taunt are too teams that utilize them.
My spidey sense is tingling!
Know why? Because we (and I do mean we) are falling into the same old trap again. We've given CAP9 the typing to be an Ubers-worthy hard-hitting pokemon, it looks like we're giving CAP9 the stats to be an almost-gamebreakingly hard-hitting pokemon, and now we want to give CAP9 an ability that's going to increase its strength tenfold. Once we get to movepool, we're going to have to severely limit CAP9's movepool or else it will be broken. Now, where have I seen that happen before ... oh yeah, I seem to recall a bit of this in CAP7 and a lot of this in CAP8!
Know why? Because we (and I do mean we) are falling into the same old trap again. We've given CAP9 the typing to be an Ubers-worthy hard-hitting pokemon, it looks like we're giving CAP9 the stats to be an almost-gamebreakingly hard-hitting pokemon, and now we want to give CAP9 an ability that's going to increase its strength tenfold. Once we get to movepool, we're going to have to severely limit CAP9's movepool or else it will be broken. Now, where have I seen that happen before ... oh yeah, I seem to recall a bit of this in CAP7 and a lot of this in CAP8!
Plus makes the final call on all of this. He's stated in the Stat Spreads that he doesn't want to go too far and wants it close to Very Good. I think we can trust in him to not break CAP9, he was chosen to lead for a reason.
That's good to hear. Meanwhile, I've revised my suggested custom ability. I want the ability to not break CAP9 but still be able to deter the use of secondary effect moves and make people think twice about using them against a pokemon that might benefit from them. At the same time (and this is where Guts falls in my opinion), I want the ability's taking effect to rely on the opponent doing something to CAP9. As a result, I am going to suggest this as a custom ability:
Hit me - whenever the opponent uses any non-damaging move other than Stealth Rock, Spikes or Toxic Spikes against CAP9, CAP9 recovers 25% of its health (provided that it is not already immune to the move being used against it).
Hit me - whenever the opponent uses any non-damaging move other than Stealth Rock, Spikes or Toxic Spikes against CAP9, CAP9 recovers 25% of its health (provided that it is not already immune to the move being used against it).
150*75 > 110*95, meaning 150/75/75 is pound for pound more defensive than 110/95/95, but ok. Most spreads have defensive stats at least on par with things like Garchomp (which frightens me a bit).
Syclant's ability was implemented before we had the concept or even a definite process. It doesn't help us learn anything about the metagame, it just mitigates a supposedly crippling weakness (while leaving alone it's other equally crippling weaknesses).
Fidgit is a really odd case in that it's ability is all about exploring the effects on the metagame. I know I sound hypocritical for saying it but Trick Room/Gravity/Tailwind weren't really viable before Fidgit, and as we found out, they still weren't used much even with the boost. In that way, we learned about the metagame and how "field effects" aren't really effective because they're too high-maintenance. There was no other way for us to learn this.
Yes but that's not what this concept is about. I'd argue that Status moves are more common/important than Taunt/Encore as secondary effects since as you've said, teams don't really use Taunt/Encore in the standard metagame. I'm not against a specialized ability, but if you're going to choose a narrow ability, at least choose one that does something significant to the metagame.
How is Deck Knight's ability not doing something significant? It bounces back a status effect, entry hazard, or encore/taunt every time the Pokemon with the ability switches in. I think that that would be significant to another team.
That effect is already in the metagame, i.e. Magic Coat. Why does the ability have to do the same thing that can be accomplished another way. If anything the ability should do something thats impossible to do in the current metagame, i.e. extending the duration of non-weather field effects.
I like this idea quite a bit, but when you are targeted by said attack do the effects still take place? or do you prevent the attack and gain HP?
I like this idea, but they way it looks at the moment, it wouldn't be useful the first time it switched in during the battle, as it wouldn't have taken any damage at that point (except for SR/Spikes). I don't really know what to suggest about this ability, it does look like a good concept without being overpowering.
Seeing as CAP 9 is supposed to stop the non-damaging effects from moves, I would like to see either Inner Focus or Own Tempo as CAP 9's Ability. Own Tempo gives it an immunity to being Parafused, while Inner Focus would give it an effective way to stop flinchaxing Pokemon like Togekiss or Jirachi.
ungulateman
ungulateman
Abilities like Inner Focus or Own Tempo only stop one status. We aim to block a wide variety of secondary effects not just one status. Plus, neither of those are common statuses by any means. I see Confuse Ray in maybe 1/50 battles and only Jirachi really intentionally uses FlinchHax (Togekiss is becoming increasingly rare).
Hit Me sounds interesting, but the majority of absorbs suck. Volt Absorb is among the most useless abilities in the game, as the pokemon who have it aren't bulky enough to abuse it. Vaporeon, with her bulk, still doesn't abuse her absorb well, so I don't see that option in the most favorable light.
I see Guts as a very viable choice, though maybe overpowering. If we give this thing a shitload of speed and 110+ Attack, whose going to use it to stop the secondary? Flame Orb/Toxic Orb that sucker and sweep a team! With Magic Guard Life Orb recoil doesn't happen, which also turns this into a ridiculously powerful sweeper, though less so than a Guts sweeper, so that is personally my favorite choice.
I want to further expand on my idea of Balanced Marvel Scale. If we give it this ability then its bulk skyrockets, meaning it can sweep longer/stop secondary longer. Here's the idea:
Balanced Marvel Scale: This Pokemon has 25% more Defense and Special Defense when afflicted with burn, freeze, paralysis, poison, or sleep. Rest activates this, as well.
I think this and Guts would pair well as abilities together. Guts is an offensive ability, and Balanced Marvel Scale is a defensive ability, so it lets this pokemon Stop the Secondary in two ways, giving us a better chance to learn.
Obviously the name Balanced Marvel Scale is subject to change.
Hit Me sounds interesting, but the majority of absorbs suck. Volt Absorb is among the most useless abilities in the game, as the pokemon who have it aren't bulky enough to abuse it. Vaporeon, with her bulk, still doesn't abuse her absorb well, so I don't see that option in the most favorable light.
I see Guts as a very viable choice, though maybe overpowering. If we give this thing a shitload of speed and 110+ Attack, whose going to use it to stop the secondary? Flame Orb/Toxic Orb that sucker and sweep a team! With Magic Guard Life Orb recoil doesn't happen, which also turns this into a ridiculously powerful sweeper, though less so than a Guts sweeper, so that is personally my favorite choice.
I want to further expand on my idea of Balanced Marvel Scale. If we give it this ability then its bulk skyrockets, meaning it can sweep longer/stop secondary longer. Here's the idea:
Balanced Marvel Scale: This Pokemon has 25% more Defense and Special Defense when afflicted with burn, freeze, paralysis, poison, or sleep. Rest activates this, as well.
I think this and Guts would pair well as abilities together. Guts is an offensive ability, and Balanced Marvel Scale is a defensive ability, so it lets this pokemon Stop the Secondary in two ways, giving us a better chance to learn.
Obviously the name Balanced Marvel Scale is subject to change.
I agree with Shed Skin and Marvel Scale so CAP9 can have better status prevention. Marvel Scale will discourage opponents to use status. You can also send it in on a T-Wave, turning a "somewhat offensive" poke to a defence-bulky hard-hitting sweeper or pseudo-tank. I also agree with Maci's idea of a Balanced Marvel Scale, so it can defend on both sides of the spectrum and not invite special attackers.
Shed Skin, however, will also discourage opponents from statusing as there's only a ~45% chance of keeping the status for over 2 turns. You can also utilize it as a sort of Early Bird-Rest combo except a bit more gimmicky.
About the Reflection idea... I personally think it's a bit unfair, as however annoying things like Blissey can be, giving CAP9 Reflection will render some of these statusers/stallers useless, as you can just switch it in with little prediction and BOOM! they're statused. If we are to go with this idea, i think Synchronize would be the fairer equivalent.
Now about the Reverse Psychology ability... When you mean no visible status, Attract, Confuse, etc. won't be reflected? And when you say, "Essentially, this means that Trick, Switcheroo, Skill Swap and Role Play do nothing (as you give their item/ability right back to them automatically), while the opponent is Taunted, Encored and Tormented if they try to inflict those conditions on you", you can't use Trick/Switcheroo/Skill Swap/Role Play when you're Taunted.
Shed Skin, however, will also discourage opponents from statusing as there's only a ~45% chance of keeping the status for over 2 turns. You can also utilize it as a sort of Early Bird-Rest combo except a bit more gimmicky.
About the Reflection idea... I personally think it's a bit unfair, as however annoying things like Blissey can be, giving CAP9 Reflection will render some of these statusers/stallers useless, as you can just switch it in with little prediction and BOOM! they're statused. If we are to go with this idea, i think Synchronize would be the fairer equivalent.
Now about the Reverse Psychology ability... When you mean no visible status, Attract, Confuse, etc. won't be reflected? And when you say, "Essentially, this means that Trick, Switcheroo, Skill Swap and Role Play do nothing (as you give their item/ability right back to them automatically), while the opponent is Taunted, Encored and Tormented if they try to inflict those conditions on you", you can't use Trick/Switcheroo/Skill Swap/Role Play when you're Taunted.
Well... what about an ability to just automatically "Rapid Spin" right after entering the field? It would be a good entry-hazards-counter much better than Levitate users. Also, Stealth Rock is a broken move, so it is very abused at this generation.
Also, Auto-Magic Coat, suggested before, is a good idea. And, if it is broken, Natural Cure, even if don't really stopping the secondary moves, could be a good second ability.
I don't feel so much about Guts, as it wouldn't stop that much the usage of secondary moves. CAP9 is already immune to most of the Paralysis on the game (yes, most of it is used in the form of Thunder Wave), and his option is not really to be a great attacker, but a secondary-stopper with kind of an offensive bias. Thinking about that, a Burn should not cripple CAP9 as much as it is said, and Sleep won't really be a stat booster unless it uses Sleep Talk. There leaves only poison and freeze. So, virtually, it is poison, mainly from Toxic Spikes, that could be taken off with another ability.
The ability Provoke, at the first page, is also a great ability, that wouldn't break the metagame as much as Auto-Magic Coat, and has a great scout usage. It also increases the usage of the move Pursuit, so discussed when choosing the ability, and the mind games also work well.
Also, Auto-Magic Coat, suggested before, is a good idea. And, if it is broken, Natural Cure, even if don't really stopping the secondary moves, could be a good second ability.
I don't feel so much about Guts, as it wouldn't stop that much the usage of secondary moves. CAP9 is already immune to most of the Paralysis on the game (yes, most of it is used in the form of Thunder Wave), and his option is not really to be a great attacker, but a secondary-stopper with kind of an offensive bias. Thinking about that, a Burn should not cripple CAP9 as much as it is said, and Sleep won't really be a stat booster unless it uses Sleep Talk. There leaves only poison and freeze. So, virtually, it is poison, mainly from Toxic Spikes, that could be taken off with another ability.
The ability Provoke, at the first page, is also a great ability, that wouldn't break the metagame as much as Auto-Magic Coat, and has a great scout usage. It also increases the usage of the move Pursuit, so discussed when choosing the ability, and the mind games also work well.
The idea of absorbing status is to allow CAP9 to use its moves and stats to punish secondary users. In essence, that is stopping Taunt (you are attacking the Taunter) and Encore (you can switch when they do).
As for movepools doing the job of abilities, there's a flaw. Unless CAP9 Sleep-talks, it isn't going to use Rapid Spin or Aromatherapy in its sleep. This is why I advocate Insomnia/Vital Spirit- to make sure CAP9 can do its job reliably.
First of all, Poison Heal kicks ass at stopping the secondary. It gets healed by Toxic damage, so it can recover from Stealth Rock, Spike and Leech Seed damage, as well as the certain damaging weather that CAP9 is NOT immune to *points to Hail*. Also, since CAP9 has to be Poisoned in order for Poison Heal to work, it also can't be affected by any of the other status ailments. Finally it stops non-Poison and non-Steel Tricksters from getting any ideas. Plus, even if you encounter a Poison or Steel Trickster, that's why we have STAB on EQ, or Crunch for Gengar.
I'd also like put up a custom ability
Zealotry
If the opponent is ordered to use an attack that targets this Pokemon, but does not deal damage, damage dealt by this Pokemon is doubled
I believe Zealotry will help to stop the secondary because the last thing any battler wants to happen is for a Pokemon to eat more damage than expected, which is exactly what will happen if Zealotry is triggered. Most of the secondary effects is done by the bulkier Pokemon mainly because they can usually afford to take the hits they need to get the secondary effects out in the open. This ability can threaten those Pokemon via the Pokemon potentially killing them in one shot, if it can normally do so in two.
Just to clarify the description, the opponent in question doesn't HAVE to actually pull off said move for Zealotry to be triggered, just as long as said move has been selected by the opponent
I'd also like put up a custom ability
Zealotry
If the opponent is ordered to use an attack that targets this Pokemon, but does not deal damage, damage dealt by this Pokemon is doubled
I believe Zealotry will help to stop the secondary because the last thing any battler wants to happen is for a Pokemon to eat more damage than expected, which is exactly what will happen if Zealotry is triggered. Most of the secondary effects is done by the bulkier Pokemon mainly because they can usually afford to take the hits they need to get the secondary effects out in the open. This ability can threaten those Pokemon via the Pokemon potentially killing them in one shot, if it can normally do so in two.
Just to clarify the description, the opponent in question doesn't HAVE to actually pull off said move for Zealotry to be triggered, just as long as said move has been selected by the opponent
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