Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

[Mr.E]

EDIT: Roar, new page again!

If it didnt dodge the first two ice beams it could have dodged any two or any one of the icebeams and the bullet punch. That is a 40% chance.

You can't just add up the flat percentages and expect to get the right answer. Just for everyone's reference, and somewhat to show why Substitute really isn't all that great on Garchomp, let's take a standard SubSalac Garchomp and assume a 4HKO (Three Subs, SR chip damage preventing a fourth, plus the KO.)

Chance of Sand Veil causing a miss through four (100%) attacks: Oh, I see ultimifier already did the "math lesson" (over five attacks) and even Hip checked his own. Whatever, I already typed this up. :P
0 miss: 40.96%
1 miss: 40.96%
2 miss: 15.36%
3 miss: 2.56%
4 miss: 0.16%

Actually, since an earlier miss saves you from having to Sub as often, it's probably a good idea to note the cumulative chance of hitting x times in a row as well, which is simply 80%^x. Anyway, the chance of coming out with a fresh Sub over three turns is only 1-.8³ (48.8%), or less than half the time. In other words, if you spam Sub trying to force a Sand Veil miss against anything that can break a Sub in one hit (i.e. most pokemon), you're just gonna end up 75% health in the hole over half the time and you'll still be in revenge-kill range for Scizor 80% of the time. :P

Substitute is still an okay move for easing prediction (Oops, Earthquaked that Latias switch-in! Crap, Outraged on Scizor!) but it's not really an effective way to abuse Sand Veil. Yeah okay, a couple of early misses and you're set up +2 behind a Sub. Well you know what? You could've just done without the Sub, those moves would've missed you anyway and now you have an extra moveslot to work with. The only advantage to Sub at that point is that it protects from revenge-killers that can OHKO, like Latias (Meteor) or Starmie (Ice Beam).

It's not like Garchomp doesn't appreciate the extra moveslot. Carrying Dragon Claw as its only Dragon move takes away a lot of the power which makes Garchomp most scary. Likewise, carrying only Outrage makes it more susceptible to being revenge killed, as Garchomp is forced to lock itself in against most Flyers/Levitators to nab a kill. Sub/SD Garchomp usually only carries its STAB moves, wouldn't it appreciate having Fire Fang so half the OU Steels don't counter it?

Also your examples are assuming that Swampert is already out against Garchomp. In Haunter's example Pert switched into Chomp. It isnt hard to force a switch with Garchomp.. Especially one that is indistinguishable from scarfchomp until it uses sub or SD.

Of course my example is Garchomp switching in. The entire point of my "example" is to illustrate what commonly happens when a Garchomp is switched in. But the opposite is also a very common scenario I see myself in when facing Garchomp, my switching Swampert into it (scaring off my support Jirachi) as it tries to set up. I kill the Sub, eat a +2 EQ for 90% and kill it. Against the non-Sub ones that SD off the bat, that's usually a ~70% Ice Beam through Yache Berry and Swampert dying, then I just clean it up with Scizor or Latias. If Sand Veil screws me over once, I have the other one of those two as backup.

Am I overprepared for Garchomp? I wouldn't say so. My primary switch-in and "crippler" is [generic bulky pokémon with Ice Beam] and I have two backup checks in Scizor plus [generic offensive pokémon that outspeeds Garchomp]. Everyone else is already using Scizor anyway, while any number of bulky pokémon could replace Swampert (e.g. Cresselia, Suicune) and faster pokémon replace Latias (e.g. Azelf, Starmie, Scarfers). Other priority users can replace Scizor or work alongside it to deter Garchomp further. My team also lacks a Reflect user and uses neither Spikes nor Toxic Spikes, all of which can greatly help anyone beat Garchomp without losing half a team. I also have neither Skarmory nor Bronzong, the two accepted "counters" to Sub/SD sets and still two of Garchomp's best checks otherwise. No bulky Gyarados. So... overprepared? Not even close, yet I have no trouble handling Garchomp! Overpowered? It's not even as dangerous as Latias or as metagame-defining as Tyranitar. (Sand Stream...) If Garchomp was that bad, I'd be using Ice Punch or Reflect on my Jirachi for it, instead of Tbolt for Skarm and Gyarados. :P

If Sand Veil screws me over three times or whatever then yeah, I lose, but that just doesn't happen often enough for me to consider it broken. Hell, I got 6-0'ed by a Gyarados earlier today because Ice Fang flinched me at a very inopportune moment and I'm sure plenty of other people get into trouble with Gyarados as well when Waterfall does it. Probably half of my losses have been to CM Latias variants just because I'm not using T-Tar to counter it and lack a Scarf Outrage user to revenge. Garchomp isn't the only pokémon that sweeps teams with "middling" or "high" levels of hax and it's not the only major offensive threat people have to prepare for.

And hey, Garchomp is susceptible to a lot of the same crap many other threats are. Reflect works against a lot more than Garchomp. In fact, it's primarily used on Rotom and Psychics to deter Pursuit users from ruining their day, not because of Garchomp. Ice moves work on more than just Garchomp, they also hurt them other SCARY DRAGONS (except broken Kingdra) and have generally good type coverage. Spikes wear down T-Tar and Vaporeon and Toxic Spikes ruins them just as well as they do Garchomp. Jolteon outspeeds and Skarmory walls more pokémon than just Garchomp. Priority moves help against... anything that's faster than you. Making sure your team is prepared for Garchomp isn't any different than preparing for one of 50+ other threats out there. Hell, you could even use Machamp or a weather user (e.g. Abomasnow, RD Manaphy) to stuff Sand Veil. Scarf Abomasnow itself is a great check and revenge-killer, to all three suspects at that. Granted, Abomasnow is more of a team commitment than a stand-alone weather user but then so is T-Tar/Hippowdon. :P

 

[MrIndigo]

The only parameters we use to tier a Pokemon are the uber\BL characteristics defined in this thread. If a Pokemon fullfills one or more of those characteristics, then it's removed from the metagame. In fact, before stage 3, we had to submit a paragraph to explain which criterias we were going to use when judging a Pokemon status and we had to provide reasonings behind our choices. I know that during stage 3 we're not going to write any paragraph, but I really invite anyone involved in the suspect process to take a look at the thread "Portrait of an Uber" (linked above) and to vote accordingly to the uber characteristics listed there (I'm talking to the various new users who use to post here).

Oh, I'm aware, I'm just pointing out, as the prior posters did, that there is a level of subjectivity and arbitrariness in that system; the distinction between a pokemon being a problem in a metagame for being too powerful and players not liking the metagame when it's around, for instance, and the criteria themselves have no quantitative meaning due to the vagueness of the words that make them up, like "significant" or "sweep".

There have been a number of cases in the past where certain pokemon have arguably fulfilled these criteria, but the popularity of the pokemon (amongst, in particular, the site admins and whatnot) meant that a sizeable group worked around the criteria to maintain the status quo because they didn't like the metagame changes expected to result (Blissey, pre-Platinum, is a good example). You could argue this is the right thing to do (the metagame with the change is "worse" than the metagame without, therefore the change should not be made; but the point is that the criteria then become redundant.

The other part of my post was talking about the reason you have criteria for banlists at all (regardless of what they are). Without some fun-maintaining motivation, there's no real justification for having anything other than Ubers be standard; why should you be excluding an available pokemon if it's available, if not for balance purposes?

 

[phalanx]

yes but garchomps arrival into the metagame is also stopping me running Ttar just to prevent sand veil as i'm not using gaychomp, so i'm now prone to latias (although i can take some benefit to the fact i have 2 pokes immune to ground 1 immune to electric and 1 to fire :P to work my way around most pokes

 

[Hipmonlee]

Just for everyone's reference, and somewhat to show why Substitute really isn't all that great on Garchomp, let's take a standard SubSalac Garchomp and assume a 4HKO (Three Subs, SR chip damage preventing a fourth, plus the KO.)

Chance of Sand Veil causing a miss through four (100%) attacks: Oh, I see ultimifier already did the "math lesson" (over five attacks) and even Hip checked his own. Whatever, I already typed this up. :P
0 miss: 40.96%
1 miss: 40.96%
2 miss: 15.36%
3 miss: 2.56%
4 miss: 0.16%

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. 1 miss should be ~33%, did you count hit, hit, hit, hit, miss as missing once? Also I fixed my maths again..

Actually, since an earlier miss saves you from having to Sub as often, it's probably a good idea to note the cumulative chance of hitting x times in a row as well, which is simply 80%^x. Anyway, the chance of coming out with a fresh Sub over three turns is only 1-.8³ (48.8%), or less than half the time. In other words, if you spam Sub trying to force a Sand Veil miss against anything that can break a Sub in one hit (i.e. most pokemon), you're just gonna end up 75% health in the hole over half the time and you'll still be in revenge-kill range for Scizor 80% of the time. :P

Sub should not be used to pick up misses unless Chomp is going to be KOed. Ending up 75% in the hole against a pokemon that OHKOs you is not any cost at all, it still OHKOs you. So for only the cost of the moveslot, you get a 51% chance of at least one extra attack.

Substitute is still an okay move for easing prediction (Oops, Earthquaked that Latias switch-in! Crap, Outraged on Scizor!) but it's not really an effective way to abuse Sand Veil. Yeah okay, a couple of early misses and you're set up +2 behind a Sub. Well you know what? You could've just done without the Sub, those moves would've missed you anyway and now you have an extra moveslot to work with. The only advantage to Sub at that point is that it protects from revenge-killers that can OHKO, like Latias (Meteor) or Starmie (Ice Beam).

Which is interestingly what most people use to stop Garchomp. The value of beating revenge killers is clearly shown in Haunter's example. Yache chomp would have had a 1/125 shot at sweeping that team (ok this isnt as detailed as my subchomp maths, so its not actually perfectly correct, but it is close enough). Sub chomp had almost one in four. Also note I would not use sub chomp with any item other than salac berry.

It's not like Garchomp doesn't appreciate the extra moveslot. Carrying Dragon Claw as its only Dragon move takes away a lot of the power which makes Garchomp most scary. Likewise, carrying only Outrage makes it more susceptible to being revenge killed, as Garchomp is forced to lock itself in against most Flyers/Levitators to nab a kill. Sub/SD Garchomp usually only carries its STAB moves, wouldn't it appreciate having Fire Fang so half the OU Steels don't counter it?

This is all true. None of this makes sub chomp not useable, broken, or in my opinion not the best Garchomp set generally.

Of course my example is Garchomp switching in. The entire point of my "example" is to illustrate what commonly happens when a Garchomp is switched in.

Except you only sub for a miss against pokemon that ohko you. So your example assumes that Garchomp is switching in against a Garchomp counter. That is not typical.

But the opposite is also a very common scenario I see myself in when facing Garchomp, my switching Swampert into it (scaring off my support Jirachi) as it tries to set up. I kill the Sub, eat a +2 EQ for 90% and kill it. Against the non-Sub ones that SD off the bat, that's usually a ~70% Ice Beam through Yache Berry and Swampert dying, then I just clean it up with Scizor or Latias. If Sand Veil screws me over once, I have the other one of those two as backup.

Then you have less protection against Garchomp than -FREE GARCHOMP- had. If Garchomp comes in against Jirachi, subs as you switch to Swampert then you have a 27% chance of losing then and there (if you dont have Garchomp as well). And the absolute worst case scenario for Garchomp is it does 90% to swampert and dies.

There is no other pokemon that offers that sort of chance of victory basically without any support whatsoever (ok it had to lure Jirachi, but that's all).

If Sand Veil screws me over three times or whatever then yeah, I lose, but that just doesn't happen often enough for me to consider it broken.

It only needs to happen twice in order to beat the team you just described.

Have a nice day.

 

[phalanx]

one miss is usualy enough to cause problems :/

 

[PK Gaming]

Blergh, I'm starting to think that Sandveil really is a determining factor for Garchomp's Uberness, despite you guys stating otherwise. Icing on the cake? More like half of the whole damn cake.

 

[haunter]

Oh, I'm aware, I'm just pointing out, as the prior posters did, that there is a level of subjectivity and arbitrariness in that system; the distinction between a pokemon being a problem in a metagame for being too powerful and players not liking the metagame when it's around, for instance, and the criteria themselves have no quantitative meaning due to the vagueness of the words that make them up, like "significant" or "sweep".

Obviously every vote has a subjective motivation behind it, that's why I believe that requiring the submission of a paragraph (where to explain the voting criteria that each and every voter was going to use) was a decent compromise between the subjectivity deriving from personal battle experience and the objectivity required to take a tiering decision.

There have been a number of cases in the past where certain pokemon have arguably fulfilled these criteria, but the popularity of the pokemon (amongst, in particular, the site admins and whatnot) meant that a sizeable group worked around the criteria to maintain the status quo because they didn't like the metagame changes expected to result (Blissey, pre-Platinum, is a good example). You could argue this is the right thing to do (the metagame with the change is "worse" than the metagame without, therefore the change should not be made; but the point is that the criteria then become redundant.

Which are these Pokemon you talk about? Can you prove it? As far as I know, the 3 uber\BL characteristics were outlined exactly to prevent (limit) arbitrariness into tiering decisions.

The other part of my post was talking about the reason you have criteria for banlists at all (regardless of what they are). Without some fun-maintaining motivation, there's no real justification for having anything other than Ubers be standard; why should you be excluding an available pokemon if it's available, if not for balance purposes?

I believe you just answered your question. "Balance purpose" is a good motivation itself to have criteria for banlists.

 

[Mr.E]

Then you have less protection against Garchomp than -FREE GARCHOMP- had. If Garchomp comes in against Jirachi, subs as you switch to Swampert then you have a 27% chance of losing then and there (if you dont have Garchomp as well). And the absolute worst case scenario for Garchomp is it does 90% to swampert and dies.

...

It only needs to happen twice in order to beat the team you just described.

Well, worst case is I U-Turn with Jirachi the turn it comes in and it never really gets a chance to set up at all or Breloom wrecks havoc on the opponent and Garchomp has to eat a Focus Punch to break my Sub because they really have no other choice. Garchomp then ends up getting no kill at all. Or there's other wonky scenarios like in my deleted log where my Jirachi got Tricked a Choice Scarf and flinched it to death. You know, lots of people use Scarf Jirachi without having to get one swapped onto them. :P

Secretly I also have Mach Punch on Breloom that can take down a Garchomp at ~20% but that's extraneous info. Anyway, even a 27% chance to "instantly lose," which itself is an exaggeration but I'll play along, is not that much considering the circumstance. Maybe I do have a 27% chance to lose... if Garchomp is using Sub/SD and not Sub + three attacks, SD + three attacks, a Choice Scarf or Choice Band set, or those weirdos using Chain Chomp or the odd support/defensive set. Sand Stream has to be active and they need to get Garchomp in safely to begin with, where Jirachi is the only pokémon on the team outright scared into switching out of it and even it may have used U-Turn on the switch. So if they use the one set my team is most susceptible to and if they get in safely to begin with... they still trade 2/3 of the time and only sweep about 1/4 of the time? Well whoop-de-doo. And if I was willing to take the risk of having them Sub on the switch, I could just switch in Latias directly and scare it away with no casualties. I switch in Swampert because I feel safer nearly guaranteeing the trade instead of risking switching Latias into a Sub or first-turn Outrage (or switching in Scizor and assuming they don't have a Fire attack) but I could play more risky and probably even get a better overall result. (i.e. I increase my chances of killing Garchomp with zero casualties more often than I lose my pokémon for nothing.)

If the Stage 3-1 usage stats are any indication of current usage (they shouldn't be too different), Scarfchomp is the most common moveset, it doesn't have Sand Stream support roughly half the time and it uses Substitute less than 20% of the time. (Even then, it may not have Swords Dance!) Taking that into consideration, any given Garchomp, with an unknown moveset, has a ~3% chance to sweep me. Big deal. The 90% of Gyarados with DD out there can do the same thing with a couple flinches for an equally crappy chance of sweeping me. Poorly-timed crits decide games all the time, not to mention random FRZ / PAR / BRN. Pokémon is heavily luck-based and Garchomp it isn't even an abnormally large part of that equation. I sweep every other opponent on the Ladder simply because they have absolutely no clue how to deal with Breloom, those same people crying about Garchomp sweeping them are completely without merit.

 

[The Plant]

^Scarfchomp usage could also be so high because its the only garchomp that's also a garchomp check, not because its the best set against most no-garchomp teams (which more or less don't exist).

 

[Mr.E]

Haban Garchomp? That's an absurd statement to make anyway, Scarf is primarily for outspeeding Latias.

 

[phalanx]

and speaking of that critera, where does latias slot into it?
arn't we begining to focus on countering latias only :/
great just had a mass of losses doe to losing key pokes to random crits... really annoying when you have a gamepan ruined by a not very effective crit :/
how is anyone who wants rights supposed to get those rights if they are screwed over by the mass of hax gaychomp brings?

 

[deluge]

Jirachi and Togekiss are far more annoying with hax than Garchomp.
Theoretically, they can beat their counters by continually getting the 'Heavenly Blessing'.

 

[scorchedsky]

Scarf is primarily for outspeeding Latias.

eh i find the advantage in scarf is primarily outspeeding +1 salamence, infernape, starmie, other garchomp, latias, scarf flygon, scarf tran, agiligross, +1 gyarados, heck even +2 aggron

i see no evidence from suspect testing that scarfgarchomp isn't only the best revenge killer in the suspect metagame, but would be just as successful in standard

 

[lati0s]

Jirachi and Togekiss are far more annoying with hax than Garchomp.
Theoretically, they can beat their counters by continually getting the 'Heavenly Blessing'.

yes but if togekiss/jirachi beats a counter you can often play around it, if garchomp does its often gg

 

[LoveDensity]

i see no evidence from suspect testing that scarfgarchomp isn't only the best revenge killer in the suspect metagame, but would be just as successful in standard

It may not be considered the best "revenge killer." Primarily, it is used to outspeed Latias and non-scarf Garchomp (this being the most important,) but it still nice for it clean Infernape, Starmie, and weakened pokes like Swampert. With Skarmory support running rampant, it makes things easier for any Chomp to sweep. There are many games where "whoever" sets up Chomp to sweep the best or "hinder" Chomp the best wins the matches. If not, I had a couple situations where I had to win that Chomp vs Chomp speed tie to win the match. Garchomp is such a force to be reckoned with that teams needs to have at least more than 2 more checks to it.

Also I like to comment that Garchomp's hax ability, Sand Veil, does make a big difference than its other Sand Veil brothers and sisters: Cacturne and Gliscor. Unlike Gliscor and Cacturne, Garchomp has way better overall stats and less counters/checks to beat it.

 

[deluge]

yes but if togekiss/jirachi beats a counter you can often play around it, if garchomp does its often gg

Yup, same can be said for a lot of other top tier Pokes.
In fact, the majority of those (Metagross, Salamence, Gyarados, Kindra) have speed raising moves/abilities making them more dangerous on a certain level.

 

[LoveDensity]

Yup, same can be said for a lot of other top tier Pokes.
In fact, the majority of those (Metagross, Salamence, Gyarados, Kindra) have speed raising moves/abilities making them more dangerous on a certain level.

Unlike Metagross, Gyarados, and Kingdra, Garchomp does not have solid counters and checks as those do. You can say a lot of Pokes could be dangerous at a certain point depending on the situation. It matters how often are could those Pokemon set up and consistently sweep. Many those Pokemon you mentioned require a greater amount of support than does Chomp who can single-handedly sweep by himself.

Salamence is a special case. DDmence and MixMence are both beasts, but it takes that nasty 25% from SR unlike Chomp 6%. It makes Salamence more suspectiable to revenge kills, especially by the hands of Scizor. Many times in any match, Garchomp is able to switch in with near perfect health at 80% or greater. It forces much more pressure than Metagross, Salamence, Gyarados, and Kingdra at any point if you did not already realize.

 

[boredomisbliss]

Unlike Metagross, Gyarados, and Kingdra, Garchomp does not have solid counters and checks as those do. You can say a lot of Pokes could be dangerous at a certain point depending on the situation. It matters how often are could those Pokemon set up and consistently sweep. Many those Pokemon you mentioned require a greater amount of support than does Chomp who can single-handedly sweep by himself.

Salamence is a special case. DDmence and MixMence are both beasts, but it takes that nasty 25% from SR unlike Chomp 6%. It makes Salamence more suspectiable to revenge kills, especially by the hands of Scizor. Many times in any match, Garchomp is able to switch in with near perfect health at 80% or greater. It forces much more pressure than Metagross, Salamence, Gyarados, and Kingdra at any point if you did not already realize.

definitely. salamence is much more capable of being revenged by scizor, as garchomp is significantly bulkier than salamence (heck it can even survive a jollychomp dragon claw) also salamence is often only boosted to +1 from a dragon dance at the worst, a boosted garchomp will often have +2, a full 33% stronger. gyarados's main STAB attack is only 2/3 as strong as outrage, and also usually only gets a +1 boost (also 10 less base attack) and compared to the other dragons kingdra is a wimp. there are things specifically around to counter these things by safely surviving the hits (swampert/suicune anyone?) they are around to take a hit to the face and ohko/2hko back. who can do that to garchomp? a steel? scizor, one of the top checks takes half from eq, ohkod after SD and never ohkos chomp bar CH. if you want to pretend chomps checks are nearly as reliable as everything elses be my guest.

 

[Quaily]

I've had swampert survive a LO +2 earthquake against my chomp, so it's certainly a possibility since most chomps do not run LO. A mence outrage can't even 2hko a full defensive swampert I think.

 

[LoveDensity]

I've had swampert survive a LO +2 earthquake against my chomp, so it's certainly a possibility since most chomps do not run LO. A mence outrage can't even 2hko a full defensive swampert I think.

I haven't seen a LO Garchomp yet, but that is not the point. It is known that Swamp could survive a +2 Earthquake and +1 DDmence Outrage. But it will not like a +2 Outrage from Garchomp. It is not hard to soften up Swampert for it to die vs Garchomp, especially with Skarmory around trying to beat Chomp. If Swampert is gone, then what can stop a +2 Garchomp? Latias? Starmie? Skarmory or Hippodown to phaze? Your own Chomp hoping to win the speed tie or know that you are scarfed?

Latias is one of the best answers to SD Chomp, but Scizor, T-Tar, or any other strong Pursuit can easily take out Latias for your Chomp to sweep. Let's hope Latias does not miss an attack because of sand veil, too.. or your team is dead.

Fast users with Ice or Dragon attacks from something like Starmie can threaten it with Ice Beam, but I haven't seen it much. Although SubSalac Garchomp can beat it if Salac activates. I am not a fan of Substitute because I like Fire Fang or Fire Blast better, but I have seen teams sucessfully use SubSalac to sweep a lot of teams with ease.

Skarmory is a great counter to Garchomp and even takes Fire Blast/+2 Fire Fang like a beast it is. But Skarmory alone will not beat Garchomp and needs other supporting users like Roserade(Toxic Spikes,) Swampert, Hippowdon, Infernape, etc just so it can beat Chomp. Seriously, surround a team to beat Chomp... and you may end up with other glaring weaknesses. All Hippodown could do is phaze it out... but gets a nasty Earthquake or Outrage in his face which helps other Pokemon sweep much easier.

Lol.. Chomp vs Chomp. I think I lost all those speed ties that could have won me the game lol. I run ScarfChomp just to beat other Chomps, revenge kill, and pick off something that normally outspeed Garchomp. If you use ScarfChomp just to beat opposing Chomp, it shows what a force Chomp is, but to what extent?

My team has approx 3 Garchomp checks including Swampert, but it could still be swept by Garchomp or other pokes(which Garchomp helped soften up by damaging and pressuring my team.) I am Uber for Garchomp because I don't think the metagame would be enjoyable with Chomp in it. I am theorymoning, but I sense that the metagame would become so unoriginal like D/P that every team will look similar and then many games would be decidied by that "speed tie." I dont want Pokemon to be called: "Hey, lets see who can set up Chomp the best!" I want Pokemon to be diverse as it is currently where there are many superior team styles.

 

[deluge]

Unlike Metagross, Gyarados, and Kingdra, Garchomp does not have solid counters and checks as those do. You can say a lot of Pokes could be dangerous at a certain point depending on the situation. It matters how often are could those Pokemon set up and consistently sweep. Many those Pokemon you mentioned require a greater amount of support than does Chomp who can single-handedly sweep by himself.

Salamence is a special case. DDmence and MixMence are both beasts, but it takes that nasty 25% from SR unlike Chomp 6%. It makes Salamence more suspectiable to revenge kills, especially by the hands of Scizor. Many times in any match, Garchomp is able to switch in with near perfect health at 80% or greater. It forces much more pressure than Metagross, Salamence, Gyarados, and Kingdra at any point if you did not already realize.

Unlike Metagross, Gyarados, and Kingdra, Garchomp does not have solid counters and checks as those do. You can say a lot of Pokes could be dangerous at a certain point depending on the situation. It matters how often are could those Pokemon set up and consistently sweep. Many those Pokemon you mentioned require a greater amount of support than does Chomp who can single-handedly sweep by himself.

Salamence is a special case. DDmence and MixMence are both beasts, but it takes that nasty 25% from SR unlike Chomp 6%. It makes Salamence more suspectiable to revenge kills, especially by the hands of Scizor. Many times in any match, Garchomp is able to switch in with near perfect health at 80% or greater. It forces much more pressure than Metagross, Salamence, Gyarados, and Kingdra at any point if you did not already realize.

Yeah, these points have been raised many times.
Salamence is SR weak among other things.
But you said that it's GG if Garchomp gets past it's checks and it is also GG is Salamence, for example, gets past its checks (irrespective of what these may be).

Whether Garchomp has good checks or not is a point argued many times.
However, in it's capability to wreck if there is nothing left to slow it, it is not unique.
In fact, their wider move pools, good Special Attack, and ability to boost their speeds make Metagross, Salamence and Tyranitar even more manical on a certain level.
There is very little Salamence cannot destroy unless it can be hit hard first.

So, It seems to be a consensus that the best ways to handle Garchomp and Salamence are powerful priority attacks or phazing them out.
Garchomp's superior bulk does make him harder to kill with neutral priority so in that respect he is superior.
However, Garchomp is immune to no entry hazard if they're on the field; it's just that we've evolved to rely extensively on Stealth Rock because it hurts some serious threats and is a well distributed move.
1 layer Spikes and Stealth Rock together remove close to a fifth of his health but obviously three layers of spikes or a layer each of Spikes and Toxic Spikes will remove one quarter each time he comes in.

The choiced versions will not like that too much.
The Sub Salac versions seem more vulnerable to priority.
You can't play a game with Garchomp as if he's not there (for example, you have to give Kindra those extra speed EVs) but I've almost found him manageable if very threatening.

 

[mtr]

Latias is one of the best answers to SD Chomp, but Scizor, T-Tar, or any other strong Pursuit can easily take out Latias for your Chomp to sweep. Let's hope Latias does not miss an attack because of sand veil, too.. or your team is dead.

And its a pretty risky play to switch in Latias into Garchomp, lest you take a Dragon Claw or Outrage up the ass from a Choice variant. Also, this brings up another point: what if the Dragon-employing player misuses/overuses Outrage or runs up against a check? It is very easy to punish a Salamence stuck in an Outrage, as (aside from Stealth Rock) it takes heavy damage from Life Orb and Sandstorm recoil while striking against Zong/Skarm/Forry in futility as they heal up. Where's the penalty for the Garchomp user? It enjoys Sandstorm, doesn't need a Life Orb, and takes very little from Stealth Rock (not to mention avoiding the OHKO from Scizor's priority attacks). It's been said so many times, but it still holds true: Once Salamence or Gyarados enters the field, its almost certainly guaranteed to be a one-time deal without judicious spin support. If a Gyarados Dragon Dances inappropriately and runs up against a Rotom, it can come back at 50% or decide to die. If Garchomp runs up against a counter, he can just say: "yo, I'm gonna bounce" and leave and return later without substantive penalty.

Also, Garchomp opens up so many tactical opportunities over Salamence. Once, somebody asked why players didn't utilize Life Orb on SDChomp, given that it could do things like OHKO Hippowdon and even 2HKO a Skarmory with Outrage. The answer: because a Yache Berry opens up so many more tactical possibilities. In Ubers, many players, including me, use Forretress as their Garchomp check, simply because so many Garchomps are Choiced there and the Swords Dancer is considered an inferior set. Would you dare switch-in a Forretress to an SDChomp? The first time a Garchomp appears, the other player has little idea whether it has a Scarf or a Band or a Yache or a Haban, as all items are quite viable. The Garchomp user can potentially feign a Choice item at first, and then come back later in the match without substantive penalty to Swords Dance and sweep. Without judicious support, Salamence cannot claim to replicate such tactics.

 

[LoveDensity]

Yeah, these points have been raised many times.
Salamence is SR weak among other things.
But you said that it's GG if Garchomp gets past it's checks and it is also GG is Salamence, for example, gets past its checks (irrespective of what these may be).

Oh yes, of course its been raised because people keep on bringing up why Salamence should be OU or to some people.. uber.. I kept my ground a long time by never stating once publicly why it deserves the tier it belongs. Seriously, I have seen very little where Salamence gets to the point where to sweep teams with ease. SR+LO recoil takes a toll on it and most of time does damage 2-3 turns before it is taken down. I'll applaud you if you manage to switch in Salamence more than twice in a game w/ its checks gone. Salamence is a wall-breaker at best and takes little steps to beat teams, unlike Garchomp where it only needs that SD or SD/Sub to beat teams by itself.

Whether Garchomp has good checks or not is a point argued many times.
However, in it's capability to wreck if there is nothing left to slow it, it is not unique.
In fact, their wider move pools, good Special Attack, and ability to boost their speeds make Metagross, Salamence and Tyranitar even more manical on a certain level.
There is very little Salamence cannot destroy unless it can be hit hard first.

Your statement confuses me because it sounds a little broken. But we need to address checks and counters to address any Pokemon if its Uber or OU. If a Pokemon is able to beat its checks and then proceed to sweep other Pokemon w/ nothing to really hinder it (LO recoil, SR, good bulky stats,) I think it should be Uber. But now, let us compare Garchomp with Metagross, Salamence, and T-Tar

You are exaggerating how manical something could be. It takes a lot of support for a Pokemon like Metagross, Salamence, and T-Tar to be manical at a certain level. Garchomp on the other hand, needs very little support to sweep if you ever built a successul suspect team like I've seen and built.

Metagross has a very wide movepool, typing, and overall stats. It still has to get through popular, numerous counters and checks like Rotom-A, Bronzong, and Skarmory. Also it does not have a Attack-boosting move (SD, DD,) like Chomp does to sweep with ease. If you want to get that Agility, you better make sure you do a lot of work because an LO Agility Metagross does not like switching in especially because of its somewhat low speed. But sometimes, you make your team around Metagross and beating its counters, you leave your team with larger holes versus other Pokemon. Garchomp on the other hand is so easy to fit in your team, that it does not leave much holes versus other Pokemon.

Tyranitar is in even a worse position than Metagross. Unlike Metagross who only has one typing weakness: Ground, Tyranitar being 4x weak to Fighting, 2x weak to water, grass, ground, steel and bug does not help. Argubly its best set is CB, primarily used to trap Latias, Starmie, Choiced Gengar, etc... with Pursuit and hit hard with Crunch and Stone Edge. Being locked in one move is bad enough. Pursuit and Crunch leaves you open to disadvantages or sweeps from Pokemon like Salamence, Metagross, Scizor, Empoleon, Kingdra, Gyarados, and Lucario or w/e that could boost up or set up with Substitute. Stone Edge is taken well by Swampert, Metagross, Skarmory, Machamp, Gliscor, etc.. who can take advantage of that. Swampert by setting up SR or phaze, Metagross who can set up Agility or hit hard with CB, Skarmory who can Spikes, Machamp who is fuking annoying to everything if its on the field, and Gliscor who can Roost off the damage or U-Turn the turn that you switch on T-Tar. Garchomp on the other hand can prove threatening w/o a choice item. All it needs is SD to be extremely successful. Hell, even CBChomp can wreck havoc if someone mispredicts and switches in Latias, Starmie, or w/e on the common SD, but eats a CB Outrage, Dragon Claw, or Earthquake on the face. Other sets like DD has its own limitations where it may not sweep a majority of the time.

Shiet.. that was alot of rambling by me. Oh yea, Salamence is already hit hard with SR+LO. Although it may hit hard on his first attack, after that... it is forced to switch and will take another 25% if it manages to switch in again. But since the metagame is so fast-paced, the second time you switch it in, you are probably switching in vs a Gyarados, Metagross, Lucario, Empoleon, etc that is setting up DD, Agility, SD etc or you have done a good job to weaken his team with not only Mence, but other Pokemon that allows Mence to wreck more havoc.

So, It seems to be a consensus that the best ways to handle Garchomp and Salamence are powerful priority attacks or phazing them out.
Garchomp's superior bulk does make him harder to kill with neutral priority so in that respect he is superior.

Oh cool, you are correct, but they can also be dealt by faster Pokemon if you manage to switch them in successfully.

However, Garchomp is immune to no entry hazard if they're on the field; it's just that we've evolved to rely extensively on Stealth Rock because it hurts some serious threats and is a well distributed move.
1 layer Spikes and Stealth Rock together remove close to a fifth of his health but obviously three layers of spikes or a layer each of Spikes and Toxic Spikes will remove one quarter each time he comes in.

SR is a neccessity. We haven't evolved to rely extensively on SR, its been proven that it does make a difference to help your team than not using SR on your team. I've seen so many teams fail.. even in the Chomp era where they didn't win the match because they did not set up "SR." Also, we need SR hinder threats like Salamence, Zapdos, etc. I run a "phazing-hazards" or "balanced stall" team utilizing Spikes+SR with Roar/Whirlwind. Getting 2-3 layers of Spikes is awfully hard for me, but even then... Garchomp seem to switch in with ease with Spikes+SR set. Toxic Spikes is a very reliable way to beat Garchomp and probably one of the most effective. But the only reliable Toxic Spikes users are Roserade, Forretress, and Tentacruel. There are a lot of Azelf/Lum Berry Metagross leads in Suspect which does not do Roserade any good. Forretress is very good, but its easy set up fodder. Tentacruel is horrible..

that concludes one of my longest Smogon statements ever.

 

[mtr]

SR is a neccessity. We haven't evolved to rely extensively on SR, its been proven that it does make a difference to help your team than not using SR on your team. I've seen so many teams fail.. even in the Chomp era where they didn't win the match because they did not set up "SR." Also, we need SR hinder threats like Salamence, Zapdos, etc. I run a "phazing-hazards" or "balanced stall" team utilizing Spikes+SR with Roar/Whirlwind. Getting 2-3 layers of Spikes is awfully hard for me, but even then... Garchomp seem to switch in with ease with Spikes+SR set. Toxic Spikes is a very reliable way to beat Garchomp and probably one of the most effective. But the only reliable Toxic Spikes users are Roserade, Forretress, and Tentacruel. There are a lot of Azelf/Lum Berry Metagross leads in Suspect which does not do Roserade any good. Forretress is very good, but its easy set up fodder. Tentacruel is horrible..

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49701

Legacy Raider wins here arguably only because of the Stealth Rock differential. Despite Sitzmark's excellent predictions early on, Stealth Rock seriously limits his tactical plans by stopping him from repeatedly switching in Salamence and in general seriously wearing down his team for LR's final sweep, while Legacy Raider is free to run amok with Gyarados and pals because Sitzmark didn't set up Stealth Rock. SR is indisputably the best move in the game.

Forry is way to easy to setup on. Only stall teams can afford to employ the now standard Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin/Payback set simply because its giving a setup opportunity to almost every sweeper in the game. Ironically, Forretress is a great Garchomp check in Ubers, but that's simply because almost all Garchomps are choiced there. Roserade is really only good as a lead (and as LD pointed out, it may not even be good as that), since its frail defenses and shitty typing make it difficult to generate turns for Toxic Spikes midgame, especially in such a fast-paced meta. Tentacruel's day of aristeia (glory) is over with the passing of SpecsLuke, Classic Mixmence, and FB-spamming Scarftran.

And remember, a poisoned Garchomp is still a Garchomp with all its attack and speed and type coverage, its just taking 6.25% the first turn, 12.5% the next, and so on, which doesn't prevent it from putting some dudes outta commission. Maybe if we had Burn Spikes...

 

[Mr.E]

Unlike Metagross, Gyarados, and Kingdra, Garchomp does not have solid counters and checks as those do. You can say a lot of Pokes could be dangerous at a certain point depending on the situation. It matters how often are could those Pokemon set up and consistently sweep. Many those Pokemon you mentioned require a greater amount of support than does Chomp who can single-handedly sweep by himself.

So exactly what the hell does counter Kingdra? The only thing not getting wrecked by it is Empoleon, who does absolutely nothing except run down the timer on its weather just because it doesn't die immediately. The only argument against it is the greater support it requires (Rain Dance, though Kingdra could even do that itself) but it's also much more dangerous in its element and very difficult to revenge kill because it outspeeds even most Scarved pokémon in rain while resisting Bullet Punch and being neutral to Ice Shard.

Salamence you pretty much hit the nail on the head, though keep in mind it doesn't even have to set up like Garchomp does to blast through things. Salamence is also not susceptible to Spikes or Toxic Spikes and it actually tends to be more resilient against stall because of Roost. (Granted, stall practically doesn't exist on Suspect right now...)

And speaking of Machamp, as you mentioned it with regard to defending against T-Tar, but what of it as an attacker? :P Being forced to fight through automatic confusion attached to its PRIMARY ATTACK is god-awful, Machamp can totally wreck teams because of that stupid confusion garbage and its Payback destroys Ghosts that dare switch in to avoid it. What are you going to do, use Slowbro against me? That's a joke. Hell, defensively EVed Machamp can even switch into Garchomp and punch its brains in while completely ignoring Sand Veil.

definitely. salamence is much more capable of being revenged by scizor, as garchomp is significantly bulkier than salamence (heck it can even survive a jollychomp dragon claw) also salamence is often only boosted to +1 from a dragon dance at the worst, a boosted garchomp will often have +2, a full 33% stronger. gyarados's main STAB attack is only 2/3 as strong as outrage, and also usually only gets a +1 boost (also 10 less base attack) and compared to the other dragons kingdra is a wimp. there are things specifically around to counter these things by safely surviving the hits (swampert/suicune anyone?) they are around to take a hit to the face and ohko/2hko back.

What a nonsensical argument. Yeah, Dragon Dancers don't hit as hard as Swords Dancers! Did you know they're also faster? Swampert and Suicune still survive Garchomp's +2 attacks. Where Garchomp really has the advantage is those mid-range bulky pokémon that can survive a +1 but not a +2, like offensive Rotom-A. But then Salamence and Gyarados also don't get revenge-killed by Starmie, as they end up faster due to their +1 Speed. DD is an equally effective buff move, it just works against a different subset of pokémon.

Skarmory is a great counter to Garchomp and even takes Fire Blast/+2 Fire Fang like a beast it is. But Skarmory alone will not beat Garchomp and needs other supporting users like Roserade(Toxic Spikes,) Swampert, Hippowdon, Infernape, etc just so it can beat Chomp. Seriously, surround a team to beat Chomp... and you may end up with other glaring weaknesses.

I'm not even going to fabricate a new response to this discussion, as it's exactly what I refuted in my past couple posts. Those listed pokémon do a lot more than simply counter Garchomp. They're OU for a reason. Toxic Spikes does a lot more than just beat Garchomp, though it's one of many wallbreakers that stall teams can rely on Toxic Spikes to beat. Even offensive teams will use Toxic Spikes to support special attackers against things like Blissey or Vaporeon. Rotom-A uses Reflect primarily to protect itself from Tyranitar, and other Pursuit users, but it certainly holds Garchomp at bay for the screen's duration, doesn't it? People don't use Mamoswine or Scizor just to revenge-kill Garchomp, strong priority is a boon against a wide range of threats.

The best protection against Garchomp is simply to build and play smart. Make sure some of your checks against other threats also work against Garchomp, which isn't that difficult considering it's susceptible to the same things other OU threats are. Garchomp is a complete non-threat if you have a Reflect active. Don't do stupid shit like Tbolt with your Trickscarf Rotom before you've confirmed the opponent's roster and maybe U-Turn more readily with your support Jirachi. You could even be a little gimmicky and use Shuca/Ice Punch Metagross, Shuca/Ice Beam Tyranitar, or Shuca/whatever else too. Not like those things can't come in handy against a lot of other things as well, Earthquake is the most common attack in OU and surprise factor is strong.