Gallade actually has tons of oppurtunites. Chansey's Wish or Aromatherapy is one of them. Or coming in on Milotics Rest/Recover, or Omastars Spikes. The only "counter" I know of on stall is Spiritomb and one crit can easily spell doom. You can never have a back-up because that is the one and only thing that can "reliably" take him on. I'm interested on how your stall team handles him, really.
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np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I'm not sure what you mean by "So many things will put the hurt on him". Gallade is almost as specially defensive as Gardevoir. So yes, physical attackers will put the hurt on him, but weak special attackers (you know, the kind normally found in stall) can barely touch him. He can happily set up and proceed to destroy any team without a full-health Spiritomb.
And while Gallade isn't that much of a problem for me (I don't run stall, so I have a few pokes faster and/or able to ohko it) Raikou is. It's faster than the vast majority of the tier, has great special bulk, acceptable physical bulk, and is extremely unpredictable. Think you can wall it with Venasaur? You might eat an HP ice. Try killing it with Steelix or Rhyperior? Oh shit, HP water. Quagsire or Lanturn? Nope, HP Grass. Each set does have counters, but chances are, you'll lose a Pokemon finding out what the set is. While that doesn't make him BL in and of itself, he definitely does need to be watched.
And while Gallade isn't that much of a problem for me (I don't run stall, so I have a few pokes faster and/or able to ohko it) Raikou is. It's faster than the vast majority of the tier, has great special bulk, acceptable physical bulk, and is extremely unpredictable. Think you can wall it with Venasaur? You might eat an HP ice. Try killing it with Steelix or Rhyperior? Oh shit, HP water. Quagsire or Lanturn? Nope, HP Grass. Each set does have counters, but chances are, you'll lose a Pokemon finding out what the set is. While that doesn't make him BL in and of itself, he definitely does need to be watched.
My version of stall...
Froslass- Ice Beam - Spikes - Taunt - DB
Mismag- Shadow Ball - Taunt - Will-o-Wisp - DB
Raikou - T-Bolt - Roar - Sub - Light Screen
Rhyperior - Rock Blast - EQ - Roar - Sub
Blastoise - Surf - Roar - Yawn - Rapid Spin
Gligar - EQ - Taunt - Roost - SR
Suicide setup Spikes (Switch on Ambi), Gligar suicides SR, spin block with Mismaggy, finish up with Raikou, Rhyperior, and Blastoise Roar/ Yawn, respectively.
Gligar and Mismag could be checks I guess. Gligar is often dead after it SR's and I will save Mismaggy for spin blocking. The only time it can safely switchin is against Blastiose... who Roars it out. I dunno... when I made the team all I had in mind was Spike Shuffling abuse.
I'd imagine Chansey is dead weight... for any team. I have no idea why you would bother with it since the metagame has switched from Special to Phsyical.
Froslass- Ice Beam - Spikes - Taunt - DB
Mismag- Shadow Ball - Taunt - Will-o-Wisp - DB
Raikou - T-Bolt - Roar - Sub - Light Screen
Rhyperior - Rock Blast - EQ - Roar - Sub
Blastoise - Surf - Roar - Yawn - Rapid Spin
Gligar - EQ - Taunt - Roost - SR
Suicide setup Spikes (Switch on Ambi), Gligar suicides SR, spin block with Mismaggy, finish up with Raikou, Rhyperior, and Blastoise Roar/ Yawn, respectively.
Gligar and Mismag could be checks I guess. Gligar is often dead after it SR's and I will save Mismaggy for spin blocking. The only time it can safely switchin is against Blastiose... who Roars it out. I dunno... when I made the team all I had in mind was Spike Shuffling abuse.
I'd imagine Chansey is dead weight... for any team. I have no idea why you would bother with it since the metagame has switched from Special to Phsyical.
Lum Berry Gallade rapes stall. No chance. E-Point's team seems to take him on without a problem, but that isn't exactly standard Stall, either.
I found a somewhat effective lead on heavy offensive teams: Dugtrio.
Focus Sash + Sucker Punch ensures Ambipom will lose 100% of the time(since Dugtrio is faster, and Sucker Punch bypasses Fake Out) so Ambipom won't annoy the hell out of you anymore.
Froslass is outspeeded so it can't Taunt/Destiny Bond you. If they attack just use Sucker Punch.
Alakazam is a speed tie. Focus Sash + Sucker Punch ensures the win.
Rhyperior is gonna take 2-3 Earthquakes(depending of what he does) after Duggie perishes.
Kabutops will have to attack you... same with Omastar. Omastar is easier since you can Earthquake it twice.
The other moves are kind of filler.
Stealth Rock will be ensured if you use it.
Reversal can work with Focus Sash, but don't count on it. But it ensures Ambipom will lose and does more damage on Rhyperior if they don't Roar you out.
Stone Edge hits Moltres, but Moltres isn't trapped by Duggie.
Only for HO play since HO can afford to lose a poke just to counter other leads. For balanced teams, losing a poke isn't nice.
Focus Sash + Sucker Punch ensures Ambipom will lose 100% of the time(since Dugtrio is faster, and Sucker Punch bypasses Fake Out) so Ambipom won't annoy the hell out of you anymore.
Froslass is outspeeded so it can't Taunt/Destiny Bond you. If they attack just use Sucker Punch.
Alakazam is a speed tie. Focus Sash + Sucker Punch ensures the win.
Rhyperior is gonna take 2-3 Earthquakes(depending of what he does) after Duggie perishes.
Kabutops will have to attack you... same with Omastar. Omastar is easier since you can Earthquake it twice.
The other moves are kind of filler.
Stealth Rock will be ensured if you use it.
Reversal can work with Focus Sash, but don't count on it. But it ensures Ambipom will lose and does more damage on Rhyperior if they don't Roar you out.
Stone Edge hits Moltres, but Moltres isn't trapped by Duggie.
Only for HO play since HO can afford to lose a poke just to counter other leads. For balanced teams, losing a poke isn't nice.
-Spiritomb +1 other team member-
I've been running a stall based balance team myself, and honestly bulky spiritomb to lopunny (I had been using chatot, but he is pretty much dead weight aside from doing okay against physical venusaur) w/ encore beats it fairly reliably. Go to tomb, shadow sneak as he hits you (no ev investment does ~ 50 bringing him in ko range after SR and/ or LO) and he HAS to shadow sneak to ko you, and then you can go to Lopunny and encore. That halts the would- be sweep and you can now switcheroo a flame orb, heal bell, or return it to death; basically whatever you want. If only she had instant recovery...
-I basically used this because I wanted to have heal bell AND a fast encore. Too bad chatot doesn't learn heal bell or he would actually be REALY useful to me (the only uu pokemon that could even run those moves with the needed speed and flying typing is a scarf togetic).
-Alternatly-
Stall hates this because its very risky, but its another way to beat it. try to get gallade at ~50% as he sets up which shouldn't be too hard if you get to attack twice. Then go to spiritomb to take the close combat(hopefully) and shadow sneak for the ko.
Basically the moral of the story is to use shadow sneak...
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-Spiritomb Alone-
Spiritomb w/ a choice band is not exactly a great thing for a stall team, so I have opted for the more complicated method mentioned above. Anway... Banded adamant shadow sneak will ko more often than not w/ SR damage (though according to the calc I did it isn't guaranteed until it takes 1 LO recoil). However, that means losing a TON of bulk, and in my opinion its just not worth it.
Obviously screens throw a huge kink in this plan, but in that event I just go to Lopunny and encore as it subs or SD's making it switch out or die.
I pretty much hate gallade.
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EDIT: Togetic has move slot syndrome(it wants wish+ protect, trick, heal bell, encore, and tri attack), but it does give me a nice immunity to ground + a decently fast encore so long as she still has her scarf + heal bell + a trick user that NO ONE sees coming.
So, if Yanmega was banned on the grounds that it makes offensive teams obsolete, should Gallade not be banned for making stall teams obsolete?
Even running Spiritomb i've had problems. Will-O-Wisp would miss or Shadow Sneak wouldn't do enough damage to kill it before being KO'd. Leaf Blade and Stone Edge both have a higher critical hit rate so Spiritomb can die in one hit. Not to mention Gallade forces you to run Shadow Sneak when Sucker Punch is a much better option because of it's great synergy with Pursuit and higher base power. I also ran an Encore user in Jumpluff but it cannot switch-in even on the SD because LO Shadow Sneak does around 50% and rocks are sometimes up.
All Gallade rape stall. And how does Epoint's team deal with Gallade, it OHKOes everything except Gligar after an SD. Roar spamming won't do much once Gallade starts attacking either..
I think Gallade should be banned for literally being the word for word definition of the offensive characteristic, regardless of what playstyle it makes useless.
Any of the Pokemon who try to attack instead of roar fearing a Close Combat. Any Pokemon except Missy tbh, though Gligar probably survives a +2 PC or Stone Edge. So on any of the other 3-4 Pokemon.
Especially if the opponent carries a Froslass and either switches out and saves Froslass for later, or wins the speed tie. Even Ambipom with Taunt + U-turn.
After a Spike Stack setup (which is stupidly easy to do) Gallade will be taking ~18-25 per switchin. Blastoise, god bless his soul, is never OHKO'd by a unboosted Close Combat. If it attempts to setup it gets Roar'd and if it attacks Roar. 252/252 Impish Rhyperior will always survive LO +252 CC and can in return OHKO. Raikou outspeeds and nukes it. Mismag survives unboosted SS and OHKO's it.
They key is to not let him setup... and carry heavyhitters.
So stall-like, don't you think?
Gallade isn't so threatening to me... although Scarf versions are annoying to my HO team.
Gallade main use is to destroy stall or to open the way for another poke to sweep. Since i don't know how to do a nice stall team...
I think it's the only poke that combines both though. Some pokes that destroy stall has problems to open ways for another poke to sweep, and vice-versa. That combination of Gallade is what makes it so threatening.
Gallade main use is to destroy stall or to open the way for another poke to sweep. Since i don't know how to do a nice stall team...
I think it's the only poke that combines both though. Some pokes that destroy stall has problems to open ways for another poke to sweep, and vice-versa. That combination of Gallade is what makes it so threatening.
Are you saying that if one uses Rhyperior, Raikou, and Mismag that their team no longer qualifies to be a stall team?
Rhyperior has 115 base hp, 130 base defense, and Solid Rock ability. As Heysup puts it... "He is Regirock on crack."
Raikou has 90/75/100 defensive stats, pressure ability, and access to Screens.
Stall isn't (shouldn't be) restricted to... Chansey/Tomb/wall/wall/wall/wall.
Would you criticize EUM for using Tangrowth on his previous team? Tangrowth obviously goes against that normal stall bs.. albiet it is slow but he has formidable attack stats. (Speaking of Tangrowth... I have no friggen idea why it isn't being utilized)
I dunno... Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are getting at.
Rhyperior has 115 base hp, 130 base defense, and Solid Rock ability. As Heysup puts it... "He is Regirock on crack."
Raikou has 90/75/100 defensive stats, pressure ability, and access to Screens.
Stall isn't (shouldn't be) restricted to... Chansey/Tomb/wall/wall/wall/wall.
Would you criticize EUM for using Tangrowth on his previous team? Tangrowth obviously goes against that normal stall bs.. albiet it is slow but he has formidable attack stats. (Speaking of Tangrowth... I have no friggen idea why it isn't being utilized)
I dunno... Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are getting at.
Gah, I just had the misfortune to face a top UU player with Tangrowth. I lost to the guy, because I had Moltres/Venusaur out against Chansey/Tangrowth. No way out. Afterwards, I met a n00b with Tangrowth, who I thrashed. It's not that uncommon.
Heysup really ought to write the Rhyperior analysis, lol.
Going to say that HP Grass Honchkrow really works. Destroys Rhyperior and Omastar, both of whom I have met. Sometimes I languish for Roost, though.
Heysup really ought to write the Rhyperior analysis, lol.
Going to say that HP Grass Honchkrow really works. Destroys Rhyperior and Omastar, both of whom I have met. Sometimes I languish for Roost, though.
Tangrowth is rather wall- like in nature... It fits well into stall teams, it just happens to hit hard also.
Just thought I would try it out. ^_^
I'm toying with different stall pokes, but it's really hard to make it work.
*cough* Gallade *cough*
Ex point, they do not have reliable recovery. Raikou on stall, really? Your team doesn't even have a Wish user. I'd say your team is more about spikestacking and shuffling then countering threats.
I call it... ODDBALL STALL!
But seriously, it is pseudo-stall in a way, due to most of his Pokémon's great bulk.
On another note, I whipped out my old Flying-abusing team, and after a few modifications, it's raping UU hard. I haven't seen any Raikou yet, but otherwise, it's great.
Blastoise, I find to be an excellent Pokémon, since its Yawn racks up so many switches, and gives me valuable time to Spin, Poison, or just stall. Question, though: What would be the best two attacks to run on it? I currently use Surf and Ice Beam (haven't changed it yet), but I think EQ may be necessary.
But seriously, it is pseudo-stall in a way, due to most of his Pokémon's great bulk.
On another note, I whipped out my old Flying-abusing team, and after a few modifications, it's raping UU hard. I haven't seen any Raikou yet, but otherwise, it's great.
Blastoise, I find to be an excellent Pokémon, since its Yawn racks up so many switches, and gives me valuable time to Spin, Poison, or just stall. Question, though: What would be the best two attacks to run on it? I currently use Surf and Ice Beam (haven't changed it yet), but I think EQ may be necessary.
People NEED to use Aggron more. With Magnet Rise he has many opportunities to use Rock Polish while Head Smash is just insane.
Also laughs at choiced attacks and Swellow and see those as a opportunity to launch a Head Smash(never, NEVER use Rock Polish early... just straight Head Smash something... with lucky someone switches into Slowbro or something slower thinking it can take Head Smash without a problem just to get 2HKO by it).
This thing is just beastily. It's easier to use him over Rhyperior on Rock Polish sets and a better SD recipient too.
Also laughs at choiced attacks and Swellow and see those as a opportunity to launch a Head Smash(never, NEVER use Rock Polish early... just straight Head Smash something... with lucky someone switches into Slowbro or something slower thinking it can take Head Smash without a problem just to get 2HKO by it).
This thing is just beastily. It's easier to use him over Rhyperior on Rock Polish sets and a better SD recipient too.
But what if they just set up spikes on your ass too. That gives gallade and Raikou and the like easy KOes on your Pokemon.
Bug, it resists Fighting and ground, and the now popular grass as well, plus hits most of the new additions SE, if anyone got around to running scyther/pinsir they'd do pretty well. If Heracross ever drops down here (likely actually) it could be very interesting
+1 HP Ice vs 252 HP / 144 SpD Careful Venusaur (the set I'm running/put up for analysis that I'm hoping becomes the standard): 40.66% - 48.35%, no 2hko w/SR and lefties.
if you run an unnecessarily offensive raikou: 45.6% - 53.85%
that's + 1, and venusaur packs synthesis and EQ to take out raikou if need be (mine also runs roar for all the set up sweepers, but moot point) even with the most offensive of raikous (excluding specs i guess) you can reliably switch into the calm mind and get it out, kill it, or stall it out if need be. SE hidden powers don't matter much against special walls
blastoise packs rapid spin on stall teams usually >.>
But you see, he doesn't fit the offensive definition word for word, and that's where the ambiguity comes in. As mentioned before, Gallade has a very difficult time in general sweeping outright by itself, but it can be argued that he can very easily (and therefore naturally is very difficult to stop him from) drilling a gaping hole into the opponent's defenses for other sweepers to exploit. From this perspective we see that Gallade is partially fitting both the offensive and support characteristic, just not completely fitting either one in the traditional sense. Though I am of the firm belief that if a Pokemon can be shown to fit the characteristics in this way, they should be sent to BL for sure.
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