Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!

[Heartgold]

Even if Salamence eliminates some wall, it's rarely going to sweep a whole team, because of SS, SR, life orb, weaker defences, etcetera. Everyone knows that dealing with Salamence is problematic but, as stated countless times, Salamence can be played around and, at least, if you pack a check\revenge killer for it, then you don't have to be worried about a random miss due to sand veil. Other than that, Salamence doesn't need an ice beam from Swampert to be taken into Scizor's BP's kill range, as a switch into SR and a turn of life orb\sandstorm damage is enough.

People should realize that they can't compare Garchomp and Salamence as because of their typing, abilities, stats and movesets, they're completely diffrent Pokemon.

I am not comparing typing, abilities, stats and movesets! I'm talking about both of them accomplishing taking a wall down, don't say salamence won't take pokemon down, coz it will and coz of its unpredictability and hence having scizor locked in bullet punch, scizor is on 30% of the teams so it obvious they'd rely on scizor taking salamence out.

For your information garchomp hasn't swept my team, you just gotta restrict its freedom >> I don't really allow sandstorm to be activated, i used raindance which also helps out my manaphy and getting rid of T-tar asap which i will aim at and reducing fire attacks for steels. Even if SS is running, garchomp really doesn't do anything to my team, predict what Outrage,EQ,SD? Subs sets countered by skarm hands down. You got the likes of scizor to come on a predicted outrage, latias for EQ, should I list more that are capable of coming on outrage, EQ, FF/FB... skarm, bronzong, heatran switching to the attacks they obsorb, heck garchomg on stuck on outrage, is going down most of the time. In likely events you are trading 1 for 1 pokemon with garchomp and I could easily say this for a few OU pokemon.

 

[haunter]

I am not comparing typing, abilities, stats and movesets! I'm talking about both of them accomplishing taking a wall down, don't say salamence won't take pokemon down, coz it will and coz of its unpredictability and hence having scizor locked in bullet punch, scizor is on 30% of the teams so it obvious they'd rely on scizor taking salamence out.

I've already explained how Salamence can eliminate Swampert, and I just made it because you reported my previous example.

For your information garchomp hasn't swept my team, you just gotta restrict its freedom >> I don't really allow sandstorm to be activated, i used raindance which also helps out my manaphy and getting rid of T-tar asap which i will aim at and reducing fire attacks for steels. Even if SS is running, garchomp really doesn't do anything to my team, predict what Outrage,EQ,SD? Subs sets countered by skarm hands down. You got the likes of scizor to come on a predicted outrage, latias for EQ, should I list more that are capable of coming on outrage, EQ, FF/FB... skarm, bronzong, heatran, heck garchomp stuck on outrage, is going down most of the time. Most of the time you are trading 1 for 1 pokemon with garchomp and I could easily say this for a few OU pokemon.

No offense, but I don't need your informations, I have enough on my own. And the fact that you use rain dance to combat sand veil obviously means nothing, as rain dance teams are not as popular as you may think. And I really hope that you're not implying that people need to use rain dance to stop Garchomp.

If Garchomp does nothing to your team even with SS active, then either you face really bad opponents, or you're an extremely lucky player. Garchomp doesn't even need to resort to outrage (except the scarf variant - which honestly are the only variants I have little trouble dealing with) as a SD dragon claw paired with EQ and fire fang is more than enough to deal with most teams.

 

[phalanx]

you will be better with hail to stop garchomp imo, then you can use snow cloak and blizzard. i just laugh at garchomps stuck in outrage, heatran comes in WoW's.
getting rid of Ttar isn't easy, and if you do use rain dance a good player will just remove the rain dancer then bring Ttar back in again.
scizor is an excelent choice to bring in on outrage if people acctually bothered to use the SD variant :P

 

[Heartgold]

I've already explained how Salamence can eliminate Swampert, and I just made it because you reported my previous example.
No offense, but I don't need your informations, I have enough on my own. And the fact that you use rain dance to combat sand veil obviously means nothing, as rain dance teams are not as popular as you may think. And I really hope that you're not implying that people need to use rain dance to stop Garchomp.


If Garchomp does nothing to your team even with SS active, then either you face really bad opponents, or you're an extremely lucky player. Garchomp doesn't even need to resort to outrage (except the scarf variant - which honestly are the only variants I have little trouble dealing with) as a SD dragon claw paired with EQ and fire fang is more than enough to deal with most teams.

RD is what I use and works for my team, not that I'm implying everyone should use it, currently scizor, latias, skarm is in most teams and that alone handles nearly all chomps. I know you could argue we are forced to used three counters, but scizor and latias are in the top 10 of OU so they are already in most teams. Works both ways.

Yes, well if that chomp set is giving you success that's good for you and whatever way i'm finding easier to handle chomp works out for me. At the end of the day we have our own opinions and experiences.

 

[haunter]

RD is what I use and works for my team, not that I'm implying everyone should use it, currently scizor, latias, skarm is in most teams and that alone handles nearly all chomps. I know you could argue we are forced to used three counters, but scizor and latias are in the top 10 of OU so they are already in most teams. Works both ways.

I've already explained how Garchomp can comfortably deal with both Sczor and Skarmory (with the latter which can do almost nothing in return other than roaring it out, while being 2hko'd by a +2 fire fang), and Latias can, in the best scenario (no sand veil hax and\or substitute), only revenge kill Garchomp (I've already explained that revenge killing applies to almost every Pokemon in the game, hence it doesn't mean much).

Yes, well if that chomp set is giving you success that's good for you and whatever way i'm finding easier to handle chomp works out for me. At the end of the day we have our own opinions and experiences.

Obviously, that's the point of this thread: sharing opinions about the suspect process. I'm not arguing that you can't share your ideas and, honestly, I'd like to hear (read) valid arguments to bring Garchomp back to OU (because I'd use Chomp on every of my teams), but honestly every argument I read here has some massive flaws. But, who knows, the suspect test has just begun...

 

[Heartgold]

I've already explained how Garchomp can comfortably deal with both Sczor and Skarmory (with the latter which can do almost nothing in return other than roaring it out, while being 2hko'd by a +2 fire fang), and Latias can, in the best scenario (no sand veil hax and\or substitute), only revenge kill Garchomp (I've already explained that revenge killing applies to almost every Pokemon in the game, hence it doesn't mean much).

Oh really? Revenge killing doesn't just apply to Garchomp, don't you agree. Don't you Revenge kill DDdos with a scarf'er assuming you don't wanna use a UU pokemin like p2? Ohh how can I forgot latias, yes yes, Tell me in this current suspect with the absent of blissey how you tend to take latias on. You just don't bring in T-tar and scizor to obsorb attacks and chances are they might have taken damange already, scizor doesn't like suf's/hp fire and T-tar would have to be in full health to take latias on which reminds me was its only purpose just to counter latias? So the safer option is for latias to kill something and then switch in scizor/t-tar to kill it >>

 

[haunter]

Oh really? Revenge killing doesn't just apply to Garchomp, don't you agree. Don't you Revenge kill DDdos with a scarf'er assuming you don't wanna use a UU pokemin like p2?

What? I'm pretty sure you misunderstood my post. That's exactly what I meant: revenge killing applies to almost every Pokemon in the game. And, by the way, your example is completely out of place, as Gyarados can be countered without needing to revenge kill it (have you ever heard of Vaporeon\Rotom? just to name a few).

Ohh how can I forgot latias, yes yes, Tell me in this current suspect with the absent of blissey how you tend to take latias on. You just don't bring in T-tar and scizor to obsorb attacks and chances are they might have taken damange already, scizor doesn't like suf's/hp fire and T-tar would have to be in full health to take latias on which reminds me was its only purpose just to counter latias? So the safer option is for latias to kill something and then switch in scizor/t-tar to kill it >>

Scarf Latias is probably the easiest thing to deal with as she doesn't hit hard enough to hurt TTar and Scizor, and by the way, I just use a specially defensive Metagross which also takes care of specs Latias if need be. Revenge killing Latias is an option, but it's not the only way to deal with her, and despite your biased comments, Latias doesn't seem to be such a problem for most of the players who are playing the suspect ladder. And the fact that Blissey isn't very common in this suspect metagame, doesn't mean that she's not a viable counter to Latias, same with Snorlax.

 

[Heartgold]

What? I'm pretty sure you misunderstood my post. That's exactly what I meant: revenge killing applies to almost every Pokemon in the game. And, by the way, your example is completely out of place, as Gyarados can be countered without needing to revenge kill it (have you ever heard of Vaporeon\Rotom? just to name a few).

I see we need to carry HP electric to counter dos, doesn't that say something. Rotom may be defeated if dos gets a 20% flinch just like you miss garchomp in SS.

Scarf Latias is probably the easiest thing to deal with as she doesn't hit hard enough to hurt TTar and Scizor, and by the way, I just use a specially defensive Metagross which also takes care of specs Latias if need be. Revenge killing Latias is an option, but it's not the only way to deal with her, and despite your biased comments, Latias doesn't seem to be such a problem for most of the players who are playing the suspect ladder. And the fact that Blissey isn't very common in this suspect metagame, doesn't mean that she's not a viable counter to Latias, same with Snorlax.

I know latias can easily be countered, i just stating it's more likely safe to revenge kill it in most cases. Garchomp can easily be countered, predict outrage, go to steel, predict EQ go to leviaters for fire moves something that obsorbs it. Not so hard playing around with garchomp. Outrage is the wrost move for garchomp to use IMO, gives skarm to setup spikes, cress to switch in and kill it, or even scizor could do that and revenge killed by other pokes. If it uses opting for d-claw then it's really reducing its power to hit walls and not so threatening.

 

[Deucalion2]

Why are we bothering with this? If we've got to the stage where we've ascertained that both Manaphy and Latias are almost certain to be fine on the standard ladder, and Garchomp is the only real unknown in the equation left, why not just dump the Suspect Ladder entirely, put Manaphy, Latias and Garchomp on the standard ladder, and let things run for a few months, monitoring user opinions and usage statistics? I could understand a seperate ladder when things contained so much difference with Latios and Skymin, but suspect is showing Manaphy isn't really used that much in comparison to the top OU Pokemon, and we've had experience with Latias anyway, so the current suspect ladder doesn't really vary that much from the standard, aside from the addition of Garchomp. This just seems to be really unnecessary and forcing a contrived situation that feeds theorymon much too easily, when we could just look at the real thing in action by unbanning Garchomp on standard for a few months.


On a side note, I'm not really finding Garchomp that threatening, or at least, not as threatening as he was hyped to be. Sure, he's a top 3 OU Pokemon, but he's not that much stronger than Gyarados or Salamence, really, and we coped with them plenty fine.

 

[haunter]

I see we need to carry HP electric to counter dos, doesn't that say something. Rotom may be defeated if dos gets a 20% flinch just like you miss garchomp in SS.

Hp electric is just the case of Vaporeon, and by the way, roar is almost as good on it as it still pseudo-hazes taunt-less Gyara and other threats like Kingdra or cro-Cune. Other than that, Gyarados has other counters such as Clelebi and, like Salamence, is weak to SR meaning that it has a limited amount of switch ins. And as stated before, one thing is carrying a sinlge move to deal with a Pokemon, and another thing is carrying 2 or more Pokemon just to counter a single threat.

I know latias can easily be countered, i just stating it's more likely safe to revenge kill it in most cases.

Then if you know that, your example is completely out of place.

Garchomp can easily be countered, predict outrage, go to steel, predict EQ go to leviaters for fire moves something that obsorbs it. Not so hard playing around with garchomp.

This is hilarious. Garchomp can be easily countered? Really? During the whole DP metagame (until its ban in the late 2008) people have had troubles countering Garchomp, and now you claim that it's easy to counter?!? How, exactly? And "prediction" means nothing, a great battler named Stathakis thinks that prediction is just a glorified guesswork (and my battle experience has led me to absolutely agree with him), and if your only argument to counter Garchomp is prediction, then you're completely clueless. What happens if your opponent "out-predicts" you and uses dragon claw when you predict an EQ and switch in your Latias? You lose your best and probably only check to Garchomp.

Outrage is the wrost move for garchomp to use IMO, gives skarm to setup spikes, cress to switch in and kill it, or even scizor could do that and revenge killed by other pokes. If it uses opting for d-claw then it's really reducing its power to hit walls and not so threatening.

Yeah, outrage is awful on SD Chomp. And by the way Cresselia is 2hko'd by a SD outrage while it won't ohko Chomp in return. Maybe with dragon claw it's reducing its power, but it's still 2hkoing everything it needs to:

+1 dragon claw against max HP \ max Def impish Gyarados:

538 Atk vs 282 Def & 394 HP (80 Base Power): 165 - 195 (41.88% - 49.49%)

2hko with SR;

+2 dragon claw against max HP \ 40 Def impish Gliscor (standard):

718 Atk vs 325 Def & 354 HP (80 Base Power): 190 - 225 (53.67% - 63.56%)

2hko with SR;

+2 dragon claw against max HP \ max Def bold Zapdos:

718 Atk vs 295 Def & 384 HP (80 Base Power): 210 - 247 (54.69% - 64.32%)

2hko with SR;

+2 dragon claw against max HP \ max Def bold Rotom:

718 Atk vs 304 Def & 344 HP (80 Base Power): 204 - 240 (59.30% - 69.77%)

2hko regardless of SR;

I've mentioned some of the most bulky defensive Pokemon who are immune to EQ, and note that none of them can actually seriously damage Garchomp, other than Rotom with W-o-W (which has just 60% accuracy during sandstorm). The only thing that can actually force outrage-less Garchomp out is a max HP \ max Def Cresselia, but it still takes up to 44% from a +2 dragon claw. So, yes, assuming that you have a full health Cresselia (which is unlikely considering that Chomp is often paired with TTar) you can sacrifice her (as after 2 consecutive dragon claw she will be left with around 20-25% of her health) and 2hko Garchomp with ice beam (assuming no sand veil hax). That's a great result!!!

So I don't really know what you do mean with "reducing its power".

 

[Heartgold]

Yeah, outrage is awful on SD Chomp. And by the way Cresselia is 2hko'd by a SD outrage while it won't ohko Chomp in return. Maybe with dragon claw it's reducing its power, but it's still 2hkoing everything it needs to:

I understand your point, however I hae one flaw with this, the thing is they'll be switching in while you SD, soo...

+1 dragon claw against max HP \ max Def impish Gyarados:

538 Atk vs 282 Def & 394 HP (80 Base Power): 165 - 195 (41.88% - 49.49%)

2hko with SR;

Gyarados switches in, Dragonclaw won't KO, while it can icefang and chomp could be revenged killed after.

+2 dragon claw against max HP \ 40 Def impish Gliscor (standard):

718 Atk vs 325 Def & 354 HP (80 Base Power): 190 - 225 (53.67% - 63.56%)

2hko with SR;

Gliscor switches in, Dragonclaw wont KO, it icefangs chomp and again garchomp could be revenged killed after.

+2 dragon claw against max HP \ max Def bold Zapdos:

718 Atk vs 295 Def & 384 HP (80 Base Power): 210 - 247 (54.69% - 64.32%)

2hko with SR;

yeah again, Dragonclaw won't KO after you SD, zapdos HP ice and again garchomp is easily revenged killed.

+2 dragon claw against max HP \ max Def bold Rotom:

718 Atk vs 304 Def & 344 HP (80 Base Power): 204 - 240 (59.30% - 69.77%)

2hko regardless of SR;

Rotom is useless IMO, maybe setup reflect....yeah garchomp gets the advantage here as nothing's gonna ruin its run aside from w-o-w

I've mentioned some of the most bulky defensive Pokemon who are immune to EQ, and note that none of them can actually seriously damage Garchomp, other than Rotom with W-o-W (which has just 60% accuracy during sandstorm). The only thing that can actually force outrage-less Garchomp out is a max HP \ max Def Cresselia, but it still takes up to 44% from a +2 dragon claw. So, yes, assuming that you have a full health Cresselia (which is unlikely considering that Chomp is often paired with TTar) you can sacrifice her (as after 2 consecutive dragon claw she will be left with around 20-25% of her health) and 2hko Garchomp with ice beam (assuming no sand veil hax). That's a great result!!!

So I don't really know what you do mean with "reducing its power".

Reducing power yeah, it will not take on the likes of swampert/suicune. They will icebeam you to death, heck yacheberry holders can be revenged killed with faster pokemon without having to rely on scizor if you're that worried about being stuck on BP.

 

[haunter]

Reducing power yeah, it will not take on the likes of swampert/suicune. They will icebeam you to death, heck yacheberry holders can be revenged killed with faster pokemon without having to rely on scizor if you're that worried about being stuck on BP.

The point of those calculation is just that Garchomp can beat almost every potential counter even without outrage. Yeah, dragon claw won't ohko them, but they still lose 1 vs 1 and in most cases you'll have a 50%+ Garchomp with a +2 Atk stat, as hp ice from Zapdos or ice fang from Gliscor do ridiculously low damage on yache Chomp.

Oh, and Swampert\Suicune are 2hko'd by EQ or by EQ+ dragon claw anyway, so they still lose against yache-Chomp.

I won't repeat my opinion on revenge killing. My point is that there are no safe switch ins into Garchomp, and that to "safely" beat it you often need to sacrifice a potential counter (all the Pokemon I listed above or everything else that is 1-2hko'd by EQ or fire fang) and then bring in a revenge killer (and always assuming that your opponent is dumb and decides to stay in against, say, a CB Scizor or a random ice sharder), hence, it can't "easily be countered" as you stated before. I'm pretty sick of this argument, so I won't be replying anymore to posts which aren't backed up by solid reasonings.

 

[Heartgold]

The point of those calculation is just that Garchomp can beat almost every potential counter even without outrage. Yeah, dragon claw won't ohko them, but they still lose 1 vs 1 and in most cases you'll have a 50%+ Garchomp with a +2 Atk stat, as hp ice from Zapdos or ice fang from Gliscor do ridiculously low damage on yache Chomp.

I won't repeat my opinion on revenge killing. My point is that there are no safe switch ins into Garchomp, and that to "safely" beat it you often need to sacrifice a potential counter (all the Pokemon I listed above or everything else that is 1-2hko'd by EQ or fire fang) and then bring in a revenge killer (and always assuming that your opponent is dumb and decides to stay in against, say, a CB Scizor or a random ice sharder), hence, it can't "easily be countered" as you stated before. I'm pretty sick of this argument, so I won't be replying anymore to posts which aren't backed up by solid reasonings.

In that case Garchomp switches out, assuming spikes is on the field( skarmory is popular on suspect), it's gonna take spikes damange when it switches back and leading it towards its own death. Oh right you are saying Garchomp can beat it counters 1 vs 1, I will say this includes salamence as well, as mixmence carring yache will beat everything 1 vs 1 usually.

 

[mtr]

People should use more Cresselia!

Incidentally, ScarfCress is a perfect counter to Salamence, but it is practically useless outside such a role. The ubiquity of Scizor, Tyranitar, and Heatran doesn't help things.

 

[pi face]

What some people forget is that Lucario and friends have 100% counters and various reliable checks depending of the set. So, his last move is Crunch? Gliscor, Gyarados and Zapdos wall you all day. Ice Punch? Gyarados still walls him, and now, say, Scarf Rotom can switch into any of his moves... and so on. The same applies for Kingdra, Jirachi etc.

Garchomp on the other hand will always have the same moves: Earthquake, Fire Fang, Dragon Claw or Outrage. And there's nothing you can do but lose one or more pokemon. Latias is still shaky at best (comparing it to, say, scarf rotom, as lucario usually doesn't spam random crunches) since when Chomp comes in he can just throw a Dragon Claw and switch out to scout, which is very likely since he resists SR and is immune to Sandstorm. Scizor is a joke too, CB Bullet Punch doesn't even 2HKO.

 

[Nachos]

I think people are really overrating Swords Dance variations of Garchomp here. Let's take a look at some of Garchomp's Suspect Ladder statistics from July 2009:

| Garchomp | Item | Choice Scarf | 40.9 |
| Garchomp | Item | Yache Berry | 13.6 |
| Garchomp | Item | Choice Band | 13.3 |
| Garchomp | Item | Other (7) | < 7.3 |

Choice Scarf pretty much is the dominant item on Garchomp, while Haban Berry is hardly even used.

I'm not sure people are coming from with "Garchomp is easy to switch in" really. Scizor, Latias, itself, Manaphy. It's not coming in safely. The only thing I can truly see Garchomp having an easy switch on is Magnezone locked in Tbolt/HP:Fire after revenge killing Scizor. But even then, Garchomp is only coming in after something has been killed, not really what I'd call uber material. The basic thought also seems to be get a Swords Dance, kill something (which isn't even guaranteed) and then die for Garchomp to become uber. What have you gained?

The only annoying thing about Garchomp is Sand Veil, but unlike Salamence, Gyarados etc whose abilites always work unless it's like Metagross or something, or Jirachi with it's ability that is probably the most annoying in the entire game which is always there, it doesn't work 100% of the time as sand isn't up every match. Although don't get me wrong as Tyranitar is very common.

During the whole DP metagame (until its ban in the late 2008) people have had troubles countering Garchomp

I wouldn't say all of DP. Garchomp was "just another pokemon" in 2007. Yache Berry only found it's way into the analysis in Other Options in early 2008 and Swords Dance w/Yache Berry wasn't a top threat until around April.

 

[Jumpman16]

Why are we bothering with this? If we've got to the stage where we've ascertained that both Manaphy and Latias are almost certain to be fine on the standard ladder, and Garchomp is the only real unknown in the equation left, why not just dump the Suspect Ladder entirely, put Manaphy, Latias and Garchomp on the standard ladder, and let things run for a few months, monitoring user opinions and usage statistics? I could understand a seperate ladder when things contained so much difference with Latios and Skymin, but suspect is showing Manaphy isn't really used that much in comparison to the top OU Pokemon, and we've had experience with Latias anyway, so the current suspect ladder doesn't really vary that much from the standard, aside from the addition of Garchomp. This just seems to be really unnecessary and forcing a contrived situation that feeds theorymon much too easily, when we could just look at the real thing in action by unbanning Garchomp on standard for a few months.

there's literally no reason to tamper with the standard ladder and official tournaments and smogon tours and competitive analyses by throwing two suspects on there prematurely. how do you personally even know what suspect is showing with regard to manaphy after less than 10 days of stage 3-2 anyway

and i don't know how this situation could be feeding theorymon when people are talking about exactly what is happening on the suspect ladder. the people who are would still be doing so if this was happening on the standard ladder

I like offensive play and I'd dislike to completely twist my team just to adapt it to Garchomp. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

unfortunately, you are right, as hip has stated the same sentiment about his playing style in as many words, but this doesn't make your opinion any more respectable. i am stunned to see that there are still decent competitive players who think that competitive pokemon should revolve around their own particular playing style, let alone the fact that good competitive players should have the ability to succeed with more than one playing style. when has competitive pokemon ever been about dealing with only what you like and banning what you don't?

given how many voters we have in stage 3 i can't exactly make anyone adhere to our philosophy or heed the characteristics of uber pokemon, or demonstrate in written word that they approached the test with either in mind. i can only hope the sheer number of people we have voting in stage 3 compared to previous rounds will go a long way to mitigate the problem of people voting on sheer personal preference. but if you or any of you actually plan on casting your vote in line with what you like and dislike then you should be ashamed of yourselves

 

[haunter]

when has competitive pokemon ever been about dealing with only what you like and banning what you don't?

I'm pretty sure that you know, both from my previous votes in the suspect test and from my posts in this thread, that I'll be voting observing the 3 ubers characteristics outlined in the thread "Portrait of an Uber".

unfortunately, you are right, as hip has stated the same sentiment about his playing style in as many words, but this doesn't make your opinion any more respectable. i am stunned to see that there are still decent competitive players who think that competitive pokemon should revolve around their own particular playing style, let alone the fact that good competitive players should have the ability to succeed with more than one playing style?

I can successfully play balanced teams, it's just that I wouldn't like to be forced to run semi-stall (read: Skarmory\defensive-Rotom\Tentacruel) just because it's the only theoretical way to defeat a single Pokemon. And obviously mine was just an exaggeration in response to Mr.E's post. I'm a pretty versatile player, don't take my posts word by word.

@Nubchos: You may be right on the period. Maybe people didn't think it was broken in the first D\P stages, of course in February 2008 there was already a large front against Chomp. I remembered this thread was from 2007, instead it's from early 2008, so yeah, seems you're right. My point still stands, though.

 

[mtr]

Why are we bothering with this? If we've got to the stage where we've ascertained that both Manaphy and Latias are almost certain to be fine on the standard ladder...

Really? I know that quite a few people would argue Latias as Uber because of how centralizing it is. Manaphy is worse with Tail Glow, excellent typing and defenses, and decent coverage. Not to mention that it has Hydration, though that rarely enters the equation.

 

[deluge]

unfortunately, you are right, as hip has stated the same sentiment about his playing style in as many words, but this doesn't make your opinion any more respectable. i am stunned to see that there are still decent competitive players who think that competitive pokemon should revolve around their own particular playing style, let alone the fact that good competitive players should have the ability to succeed with more than one playing style. when has competitive pokemon ever been about dealing with only what you like and banning what you don't?

given how many voters we have in stage 3 i can't exactly make anyone adhere to our philosophy or heed the characteristics of uber pokemon, or demonstrate in written word that they approached the test with either in mind. i can only hope the sheer number of people we have voting in stage 3 compared to previous rounds will go a long way to mitigate the problem of people voting on sheer personal preference. but if you or any of you actually plan on casting your vote in line with what you like and dislike then you should be ashamed of yourselves

*Nods*
I came off as a really pessimistic buzzkill when I raised similar sentiment (though in a decidedly less diplomatic manner).
However, this state of affairs DEEPLY annoys me.

People talking about preferring to ban Garchomp because otherwise they'd have to actually change their teams/playing style to manage it?
How is that even close to the ideal of what we're trying to achieve by testing suspects in the first place?
Inasmuch as it provides an avenue for such unfair game engineering, I was disappointed with the entire process.

Anyway, I'm also hoping for an outcome in which forgone conclusions do not decide the fate of suspects.
It is rather unfortunate that I cannot fully participate myself due to the significant time required and my current preoccupation.
However, with so many people being involved, I really hope the next vote is fair to the Suspects and the game's integrity.

 

[Ciele]

I think people are really overrating Swords Dance variations of Garchomp here. Let's take a look at some of Garchomp's Suspect Ladder statistics from July 2009:

Choice Scarf pretty much is the dominant item on Garchomp, while Haban Berry is hardly even used.

I'm not sure people are coming from with "Garchomp is easy to switch in" really. Scizor, Latias, itself, Manaphy. It's not coming in safely. The only thing I can truly see Garchomp having an easy switch on is Magnezone locked in Tbolt/HP:Fire after revenge killing Scizor. But even then, Garchomp is only coming in after something has been killed, not really what I'd call uber material. The basic thought also seems to be get a Swords Dance, kill something (which isn't even guaranteed) and then die for Garchomp to become uber. What have you gained?

The only annoying thing about Garchomp is Sand Veil, but unlike Salamence, Gyarados etc whose abilites always work unless it's like Metagross or something, or Jirachi with it's ability that is probably the most annoying in the entire game which is always there, it doesn't work 100% of the time as sand isn't up every match. Although don't get me wrong as Tyranitar is very common.

I have to disagree with you on this. Garchomp may not have many resistances, but it does have solid defense stats, so it can be switched in on a lot of things, especially when you take SR resistance and SS immunity into things.

And although Sand Veil doesn't always work, it still makes it that much tougher considering how one missed move can lose you the entire game against YacheChomp.

And lets not forget the destructive power that CB Chomp possesses. It takes out virtually everything with a brilliant dual STAB combination of Dragon and Ground moves that Salamence or Gyarados can't use as effectively.

 

[MetaNite]

The idea of a "counter" for half of the upper tier of OU is almost laughable these days anyway. Salamence, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Kingdra don't have any real counters at all. Many others only have a single good one, such as Cresselia for Infernape, or shaky ones like Blissey for Latias or Empoleon. (What if Latias Trickscarfs it or has CM/Refresh? What if Empoleon is running a Swords Dance set?)

It is far from laughable. For one thing, Kingdra isn't near the upper tier because it has so many counters. Skarmory, Celebi, and even Rotom-A can all handle physical ones, while Blissey, Snorlax and a couple others counter special ones. Tyranitar is still countered very well by Hippowdon, Machamp, and Hariyama. Scizor can still switch in on most of its moves and kill with Bullet Punch. Physical Jirachi is beaten by Swampert, Vaporeon, Skarmory, while special ones have a great deal of trouble with Swampert, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Blissey, etc. Infernape has many many more counters than those you have mentioned, Latias, Starmie, hell, even Slowbro. Blissey can counter many Latias easily, while Forretress, Snorlax, Scizor, and Tyranitar can counter most Latias very easily. The only shaky one is Salamence, who has very few counters, however its weakness to Stealth Rock and susceptibility to priority attacks makes it much less of a threat than Garchomp.

Sure you could say that Jirachi can use Grass Knot to beat Swampert, but that is an extreme case. Many Pokemon can someway, somehow, use some gimmick to beat their counters. i.e. CB Payback Gyarados for Rotom-a. However, that does not mean they don't have textbook counters.

Garchomp lacks these 'textbook' counters. Anything that tries to counter it will be 2HKOed, while thanks to Yache Berry, very few Pokemon can OHKO. Not being weak to Stealth Rock like Salamence, while possessing numerous resistances gives Garchomp multiple opportunities to switch in and set up.

 

[deluge]

For one thing, Kingdra isn't near the upper tier because it has so many counters. Skarmory, Celebi, and even Rotom-A can all handle physical ones, while Blissey, Snorlax and a couple others counter special ones.

I am not sure about this.
Mixdras are very effective, demolishing physically defensive Pokemon with Hydro Pump and maiming specially defensive ones with Waterfall.
I know for a fact that Blissey and Snorlax cannot withstand repeated boosted Waterfalls and Skarmory is wet toilet tissue when facing Hydro Pump.

Unless most water resists are in pristine shape and Stealth Rock isn't up they die to Draco Meteor or that followed by Waterfall.
Usually it'll take multiple water resists to stop Kindra as it is forced to use Draco Meteor multiple times.
(but they better not be dragons as most die to even -2 Draco Meteor).
Celebi might very well be a counter as I haven't faced enough to make a judgement.

Kindra can be stopped but likely not without leaving massive destruction in its wake.
Just like Garchomp, it's not invincible but I think somne of you are making it seem too easy.
I've used one, and I love it. Not much beats it once you know your opposition and go for a sweep.

 

[lordkira]

Mixdra is incredible actually.
With the right support, and I do not see this as a big concern for all sweepers (as far as I know) need support in order to sweep, again with the right support MixDra is just deadly. Defensively it is very nice with great resistances. Offensively, its mediocre speed and attack can be boosted with rain and/or dragon dance to shape this particular pokemon into one deadly sweeper. However, there are pokemons that can pretty much stop this pokemon. One particular pokemon that comes into my mind is vaporeon. Vaporeon would lol at MixDra and laugh hard on the floor. But it is true that Kingdra will not leave without massive destruction in its wake, as even the great bulky vaporeon will not enjoy draco meteor. In a way I guess I could say, I don't exactly know why kingdra is used more often.

 

[LoveDensity]

The only annoying thing about Garchomp is Sand Veil

I don't really have the heart to make a full on statement right now.. And it seems like whatever points I make, it fails to get through to people that are set about being Garchomp OU. But I have made three different teams on three different accounts. All of them has Garchomp, 2 of themYache Berries with SD/Dragon Claw/EQ/Fire Fang, 1 Scarfed, none of them have sandstream. All of the teams also have a way to stop Latias easily, allowing Garchomp to do as much damage as possible. 2 of them are on the top 30 with around a 1680-1720/50-55 deviation and the other team I am still testing that hasn't lost yet out of 7 battles in about a 3 hour period (yea suspect is pretty lonely) against some decent and top players in suspect ladder. In almost all of my matches, Garchomp proved to be threatening mid-game and extremely threatening late-game. Yea, I haven't been swept by Garchomp yet, but I had to make almost perfect switches by prediction to get around it. They haven't swept me, but I definitely have swept them by my team's overall presence or strategy. It always seem to take out at least 1 Pokemon per match and forces many switches allowing me to SD with ease or damage a crucial part of their team with Dragon Claw, Earthquake, or Fire Fang. If I was to put a Pokemon on my team that is threatening like Gyarados, Salamence, or Lucario, it just won't work. Garchomp doesn't have the stealth rock weakness, is much faster, is overall bulkier, and doesn't have a "textbook" counter once I got rid of their Latias.

This is just my experience. Point me wrong all you want, but many players I have spoken to including the top players have experienced the "uber" presence of Garchomp.