I'm certainly not speaking with a lot of experience here, but Snover sort of seems like a gimmick - I mean sure, the support it grants Froslass is great, but it really doesn't have much use outside of that. It just seems like a one-trick pony that will potentially bring inconvenience to the rest of your team, and if you don't succeed with Froslass it becomes a major liability.
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np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town
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I'm certainly not speaking with a lot of experience here, but Snover sort of seems like a gimmick - I mean sure, the support it grants Froslass is great, but it really doesn't have much use outside of that. It just seems like a one-trick pony that will potentially bring inconvenience to the rest of your team, and if you don't succeed with Froslass it becomes a major liability.
I've probably played against the hail team BurtonEarny is using on one of my alts. I lost to a good hail team a couple times the other day as I didn't run a Poison type or Rapid Spinner on that particular alt to counter Toxic Spikes. Once Toxic Spikes is out, the Froslass, Walrein, Chansey combo was tough to break.
Actually, all forms of weather are really good in UU. I've taken both a rain and a sand team to 1500 before retiring those alts, and all the well-built hail teams I've come across have been tough fights, usually with the advantage to the hail team.
Actually, all forms of weather are really good in UU. I've taken both a rain and a sand team to 1500 before retiring those alts, and all the well-built hail teams I've come across have been tough fights, usually with the advantage to the hail team.
I've had varying levels of success with weather based teams. I've been able to pull off the best sweeps using Sunny Day though, not Rain Dance or Sandstorm (ive never used hail).
I've been seeing less and less Raikou/Froslass/Gallade recently. it might just be odd luck, but i never see raikou or froslass, and rarely see Gallade.
I've been seeing less and less Raikou/Froslass/Gallade recently. it might just be odd luck, but i never see raikou or froslass, and rarely see Gallade.
I'm aware of that but I find ice shard to be indispensable. You always have a check to RP torterra and dragon dance altaria. In addition after a few DD's which is quite easy to get you can be revenged by stuff like Honkchrow or choice scarfers or Mach punch or any other of the numerous amounts of priority running around in UU.
That is unfortunately the mentality of many players trying to use Hail, but honestly, if you just use Snover as a one-time suicide Pokemon, you're doing it wrong.
The most success I have had with Snover is when using a special defensive spread. It can come in on bulky Waters like Milotic with ease and start throwing out Leech Seed and/or Toxic to wear down the opponent. In addition to this, it can check most forms of Raikou decently, as well as several Rain threats such as Ludicolo and Gorebyss, even some Omastars lacking Ancientpower. The latter is especially important for the success of a Hail team, as your weather-inducer needs to be able to come in multiple times against other weather teams where possible.
So I wouldn't necessarily class Snover as a one-trick pony. If played right it can serve as a valuable team member in general, outside of just providing the initial weather set-up. Even if it doesn't end up doing much in a match, Froslass is borderline broken under Hail anyway (even better now with Sub + Pain Split), and would be proving its worth just for providing that condition.
Okay guys, the test ends in 10 days so if you're hoping to have a say then you'd best get laddering.
The intended goal, in order to earn voting rights, is to obtain a rating 1600 or greater coupled with a deviation of 55 or less by the end of a one month testing period.
So now seems like as good a time as any to start summarising this discussion. I'm gonna use a slightly more detailed layout to the one that Exclamation Point proposed a few pages back and I encourage everyone to do the same. This should give us a nice sneak preview! If you're undecided on anybody feel free to omit them entirely.
Pokemon: Raikou
How I'm voting?: UU
Have I personally used it?: No
Why am I voting UU: When introducing such a powerful new Pokemon to a tier I feel that you need to ignore your initial instincts. Imagine if Salamence had previously been uber and we injected him into OU now...everybody would be screaming uber because that's the easiest way to deal with it but if you can look past that you can begin to appreciate the additional dimensions that Salamence (Raikou) can bring to the tier. I kinda enjoy the threat that Raikou brings in a way - he's not so ludicrously powerful that I need to overspecialise my team but he is so powerful that I need to think a few moves ahead and play conservatively with my Registeel/Donphan. His coverage with the standard Sub set will always leave him walled by a few specific Pokemon and if he goes all out offensive with CM + three attacks he becomes vulnerable to Sucker Punch. He's good - very good - but he hasn't done enough to convince me that he's too good.
Pokemon: Gallade
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used him personally? No
Why am I voting BL?: Well...I might not but at the moment I'm leaning ever so slightly towards BL. He's not too difficult to revenge kill (Shadow Sneak is hugely overated) but everytime he comes out he usually finds it easy enough to get a Swords Dance up and kill at least one Pokemon. I honestly believe that the most important part of DPPt is having a solid late game plan and being able to execute it well and I feel Gallade lends himself perfectly to that plan. Granted the same could be said for Raikou though which is why I'm so on the fence here...Gallades advantage over Raikou though is his unpredictability - Swords Dance is the most common set but I've been caught off by random Tricks, Hypnosis and SubBulk up variants too and I feel that sways my verdict just enough for the meanwhile.
Pokemon: Honchkrow
How I'm voting: UBERRRRRRRR
Have I used it personally? Extensively
Why am I voting UBERRRRRRR?: Honchkrow is insanely good and doesn't even require excessive prediction or support to be so. When I was in the early testing stages with my team I could see how good Honchkrow was so tried to make my team as Anti-Honch as I reasonably could. I failed. When he comes in I'm usually forced to try some switch shuffling to wear him down through BB/LO recoil and Superpower drops but a smart opponent knows when to Roost. Too good at luring, too good at wallbreaking, precious resistances and abilities that allow him to fit well on almost any team...UBERRRRRRRR. Also see my post from the Honch thread - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2302994&postcount=14
Will expand on this later but just to quickly sum it up:
- Froslass I am undecided on.
- Rhyperior UU
- Alakazam UU
- Umbreon UU
Okay, you guys take it from here.
The intended goal, in order to earn voting rights, is to obtain a rating 1600 or greater coupled with a deviation of 55 or less by the end of a one month testing period.
So now seems like as good a time as any to start summarising this discussion. I'm gonna use a slightly more detailed layout to the one that Exclamation Point proposed a few pages back and I encourage everyone to do the same. This should give us a nice sneak preview! If you're undecided on anybody feel free to omit them entirely.
Pokemon: Raikou
How I'm voting?: UU
Have I personally used it?: No
Why am I voting UU: When introducing such a powerful new Pokemon to a tier I feel that you need to ignore your initial instincts. Imagine if Salamence had previously been uber and we injected him into OU now...everybody would be screaming uber because that's the easiest way to deal with it but if you can look past that you can begin to appreciate the additional dimensions that Salamence (Raikou) can bring to the tier. I kinda enjoy the threat that Raikou brings in a way - he's not so ludicrously powerful that I need to overspecialise my team but he is so powerful that I need to think a few moves ahead and play conservatively with my Registeel/Donphan. His coverage with the standard Sub set will always leave him walled by a few specific Pokemon and if he goes all out offensive with CM + three attacks he becomes vulnerable to Sucker Punch. He's good - very good - but he hasn't done enough to convince me that he's too good.
Pokemon: Gallade
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used him personally? No
Why am I voting BL?: Well...I might not but at the moment I'm leaning ever so slightly towards BL. He's not too difficult to revenge kill (Shadow Sneak is hugely overated) but everytime he comes out he usually finds it easy enough to get a Swords Dance up and kill at least one Pokemon. I honestly believe that the most important part of DPPt is having a solid late game plan and being able to execute it well and I feel Gallade lends himself perfectly to that plan. Granted the same could be said for Raikou though which is why I'm so on the fence here...Gallades advantage over Raikou though is his unpredictability - Swords Dance is the most common set but I've been caught off by random Tricks, Hypnosis and SubBulk up variants too and I feel that sways my verdict just enough for the meanwhile.
Pokemon: Honchkrow
How I'm voting: UBERRRRRRRR
Have I used it personally? Extensively
Why am I voting UBERRRRRRR?: Honchkrow is insanely good and doesn't even require excessive prediction or support to be so. When I was in the early testing stages with my team I could see how good Honchkrow was so tried to make my team as Anti-Honch as I reasonably could. I failed. When he comes in I'm usually forced to try some switch shuffling to wear him down through BB/LO recoil and Superpower drops but a smart opponent knows when to Roost. Too good at luring, too good at wallbreaking, precious resistances and abilities that allow him to fit well on almost any team...UBERRRRRRRR. Also see my post from the Honch thread - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2302994&postcount=14
Will expand on this later but just to quickly sum it up:
- Froslass I am undecided on.
- Rhyperior UU
- Alakazam UU
- Umbreon UU
Okay, you guys take it from here.
I'm certainly not disagreeing with you - actually, I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. Rather than labelling it a one-trick pony, I guess the best way to put what I meant would be that it caters to it's niche, but is severely outclassed in most/all of it's secondary functions.
It's stats really make it unsustainable to the point that only a very experienced player could use it effectively. You could say the same about a number of UU and NU pokemon as well, which is why I don't think it's broken to the point of being BL. I don't see Snover centralizing the UU metagame anytime soon.
...
Though, Froslass has gotten me thinking - It really is an interesting pokemon, and I think it might be BL.
Let me first start by saying that if snover is NOT a valuable member to your hail team... then your playing snover wrong. Im not really able to decide which is bl. If froslass is bl then snover is fine, but if froslass ISN'T borderline then I think snover should be...
Also,
when thinking about snover it seems logical to look at him as gimmick. However, when you think about froslass only being broken under the hail condition then it is the hail that is the problem and, by extension, snover.
To THB,
that sounds like the team... but the thing thats nice about hail is that it is SO easy to kill the main ts absorber in the tier making it relatively easy to utilize ts. Weather vs. instant weather is all about how you use/ conserve snover or hippopotas.
Pokemon: Raikou
How I'm voting?: UU
Have I personally used it?: Yes
Raikou is good, no doubt. However he doesn't seem to be overwhelming. He doesn't get quite enough coverage and his movepool doesn't leave me to the surprise. I've used a restalk, roar, tbolt defensive spread. It's great in abusing Raikou's speed since sleep talk makes roar disregard its negative priority. I think that Raikou can comfortably make its place in UU.
Pokemon: Gallade
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used him personally? Yes
Gallade is extremely effective and easy to use with SD/SE/CC/Shadow Sneak. Once any of its counters is slightly weakened, either by attacking first time coming out instead of SD'ing or by double switching, he can SD and sweep entire teams. The troubling thing about Gallade is how hard it is to stop once it kills the opponent's main counter to it, since there are so few solid counters to him. I've used him in a lead position with Lum and was easily able to clear the way for a Honkchrow sweep or snag 2-3 ko's.
Pokemon: Honchkrow
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used it personally? Yes
Honchkrow is like Gallade on crack. BB, Sucker Punch, Superpower gets amazing coverage. He's so easy to use, too. When I get Krow in the first time in the match, I can rest assured that BB is usually the right choice. He rapes nearly all of the tier with BB + super effective move. Roost, Pursuit, and HP: Grass make his 4th slot a win-win decision. His ease of use and his ridiculous power make him more BL than anyone else.
Pokemon: Froslass
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used it personally? Yes
A lot of people are complaining about Froslass, and for good reason! As a lead, its blistering speed, spikes/taught/dbond, etc make the lead game into a rock-paper-scissors game. Normal Lead > Anti-Froslass > Froslass > Normal Lead. But it doesn't end there. Spikes are amazing. There are only two other pokemon that can viable use spikes in UU, Cloyster and Omastar. Both of these pokemon pale in comparison to Frolass's ease of use and ability to lay spikes. Let's face it, every team could use a set of reliable spikes. It helps wear down counter and change 3-2 2-1 ko's. Only froslass is able to lay these down so easily in UU. Her ghost typing and access to a good special and support movepool are icing on the cake. I wish we'd see more of a variety of Froslass, such as Trick + 3, but prolass and leadlass are the only two sets you really need, aside from specialty sets for specific teams. I feel that any team should make room for Froslass. Offensive, stallish, balance, whatever. Don't know who you want your lead to be? Why not Froslass? Or Ambipom, who can cleanly beat Froslass? The only way I've been able to handle froslass is with my own, running shadow ball + ice shard @ focus sash for lead position. I know preference and brokeness are different, but I feel both fit Froslass. Get this thing out of UU!
Pokemon: Rhyperior
How I'm voting: UU
Have I used it personally? Yes
I don't think there's a single person who thinks this guy is BL. He's solid physical wall with too many weaknesses. I haven't personally used any of his stat up offensive sets, but I haven't been swept by any of them either. I think Rhyperior is a healthy fit for UU.
Pokemon: Alakazam
How I'm voting: UU
Have I used it personally? Yes
This guy basically replaced Espeon, outside of bp. He doesn't seem to be too extraordinary. I haven't seen him used as DS lead that much. I used Encore/Reflect/Psychic/FB which is a pretty good set, tho FB is the worst move in the game. Spiritomb puts a cold stop to him.
Pokemon: Umbreon
How I'm voting: UU
Have I used it personally? No
A decent special wall that has no offensive prowess. C'mon, does anyone think this thing is BL?
How I'm voting?: UU
Have I personally used it?: Yes
Raikou is good, no doubt. However he doesn't seem to be overwhelming. He doesn't get quite enough coverage and his movepool doesn't leave me to the surprise. I've used a restalk, roar, tbolt defensive spread. It's great in abusing Raikou's speed since sleep talk makes roar disregard its negative priority. I think that Raikou can comfortably make its place in UU.
Pokemon: Gallade
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used him personally? Yes
Gallade is extremely effective and easy to use with SD/SE/CC/Shadow Sneak. Once any of its counters is slightly weakened, either by attacking first time coming out instead of SD'ing or by double switching, he can SD and sweep entire teams. The troubling thing about Gallade is how hard it is to stop once it kills the opponent's main counter to it, since there are so few solid counters to him. I've used him in a lead position with Lum and was easily able to clear the way for a Honkchrow sweep or snag 2-3 ko's.
Pokemon: Honchkrow
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used it personally? Yes
Honchkrow is like Gallade on crack. BB, Sucker Punch, Superpower gets amazing coverage. He's so easy to use, too. When I get Krow in the first time in the match, I can rest assured that BB is usually the right choice. He rapes nearly all of the tier with BB + super effective move. Roost, Pursuit, and HP: Grass make his 4th slot a win-win decision. His ease of use and his ridiculous power make him more BL than anyone else.
Pokemon: Froslass
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used it personally? Yes
A lot of people are complaining about Froslass, and for good reason! As a lead, its blistering speed, spikes/taught/dbond, etc make the lead game into a rock-paper-scissors game. Normal Lead > Anti-Froslass > Froslass > Normal Lead. But it doesn't end there. Spikes are amazing. There are only two other pokemon that can viable use spikes in UU, Cloyster and Omastar. Both of these pokemon pale in comparison to Frolass's ease of use and ability to lay spikes. Let's face it, every team could use a set of reliable spikes. It helps wear down counter and change 3-2 2-1 ko's. Only froslass is able to lay these down so easily in UU. Her ghost typing and access to a good special and support movepool are icing on the cake. I wish we'd see more of a variety of Froslass, such as Trick + 3, but prolass and leadlass are the only two sets you really need, aside from specialty sets for specific teams. I feel that any team should make room for Froslass. Offensive, stallish, balance, whatever. Don't know who you want your lead to be? Why not Froslass? Or Ambipom, who can cleanly beat Froslass? The only way I've been able to handle froslass is with my own, running shadow ball + ice shard @ focus sash for lead position. I know preference and brokeness are different, but I feel both fit Froslass. Get this thing out of UU!
Pokemon: Rhyperior
How I'm voting: UU
Have I used it personally? Yes
I don't think there's a single person who thinks this guy is BL. He's solid physical wall with too many weaknesses. I haven't personally used any of his stat up offensive sets, but I haven't been swept by any of them either. I think Rhyperior is a healthy fit for UU.
Pokemon: Alakazam
How I'm voting: UU
Have I used it personally? Yes
This guy basically replaced Espeon, outside of bp. He doesn't seem to be too extraordinary. I haven't seen him used as DS lead that much. I used Encore/Reflect/Psychic/FB which is a pretty good set, tho FB is the worst move in the game. Spiritomb puts a cold stop to him.
Pokemon: Umbreon
How I'm voting: UU
Have I used it personally? No
A decent special wall that has no offensive prowess. C'mon, does anyone think this thing is BL?
I'll do a quick thing I guess, but I have used all of the drop-ins extensively so....
Gallade: BL
Absolutely destroys stall / any defensive team. If it weren't for Gallade's special bulk and decent defensive typing, Gallade wouldn't be a big deal. However it is too easy for Gallade to force a switch because of its Special Bulk, allowing it to Swords Dance or flat out destroy something with CC / Stone Edge. I'd also like to point out that zero Pokemon can safely switch into Gallade.
Raikou: BL
I think the reason Lee doesn't think Raikou is BL is frankly because he hasn't used it. I mean, as a decent player I'd say I've rarely seen Raikou be BL (which is probably similar to Lee, as a good player) except for when I've used it to 6-0 ridiculous amount of teams (I'd say 1/20 teams I face are flat out 5-0ed / 6-0ed by Raikou, even with counters), and it sweeps almost every game. It's counters (well it really has 1 lasting counter) are so easy to weaken and destroy it's ridiculous. Raikou is too easy to set up, and when it's set up it's near impossible to stop. That's why I believe Raikou is BL.
Froslass: BL
This should be obvious by now. Essentially Free Spikes + Spin Blocker in one Pokemon is just too damn much. Spikes make it so easy to sweep it's silly. People who are "on the fence" should just stick Froslass on their team and just spam Spikes, then sweep with something like Swellow. It's too easy!
Rhyperior: UU
Raikou and Gallade make sure this thing isn't doing too well. Once the Ambipom Low Kick glitch is fixed, this might be easier to use. In Sandstorm, I'd say Rhyperior is almost BL though, but no one uses / abuses that, so it isn't an issue yet.
Alakazam: UU
It's sweeping sets are lol'd at by everything with priority. It's DS Sets are awesome, but it isn't broken, the Pokemon that are sweeping might be broken, but not the fact that Alakazam easily sets Screens up.
Honckrow: BL
While I think it's being hugely overrated, Honchkrow is indeed BL material. The fact that it can just suicide taking out like 2-3 Pokemon with Brave Bird and Sucker Punch is ridiculous.
Gallade: BL
Absolutely destroys stall / any defensive team. If it weren't for Gallade's special bulk and decent defensive typing, Gallade wouldn't be a big deal. However it is too easy for Gallade to force a switch because of its Special Bulk, allowing it to Swords Dance or flat out destroy something with CC / Stone Edge. I'd also like to point out that zero Pokemon can safely switch into Gallade.
Raikou: BL
I think the reason Lee doesn't think Raikou is BL is frankly because he hasn't used it. I mean, as a decent player I'd say I've rarely seen Raikou be BL (which is probably similar to Lee, as a good player) except for when I've used it to 6-0 ridiculous amount of teams (I'd say 1/20 teams I face are flat out 5-0ed / 6-0ed by Raikou, even with counters), and it sweeps almost every game. It's counters (well it really has 1 lasting counter) are so easy to weaken and destroy it's ridiculous. Raikou is too easy to set up, and when it's set up it's near impossible to stop. That's why I believe Raikou is BL.
Froslass: BL
This should be obvious by now. Essentially Free Spikes + Spin Blocker in one Pokemon is just too damn much. Spikes make it so easy to sweep it's silly. People who are "on the fence" should just stick Froslass on their team and just spam Spikes, then sweep with something like Swellow. It's too easy!
Rhyperior: UU
Raikou and Gallade make sure this thing isn't doing too well. Once the Ambipom Low Kick glitch is fixed, this might be easier to use. In Sandstorm, I'd say Rhyperior is almost BL though, but no one uses / abuses that, so it isn't an issue yet.
Alakazam: UU
It's sweeping sets are lol'd at by everything with priority. It's DS Sets are awesome, but it isn't broken, the Pokemon that are sweeping might be broken, but not the fact that Alakazam easily sets Screens up.
Honckrow: BL
While I think it's being hugely overrated, Honchkrow is indeed BL material. The fact that it can just suicide taking out like 2-3 Pokemon with Brave Bird and Sucker Punch is ridiculous.
Heysup said:
I 100% agree with what you're implying and that's exactly why I put in the 'Have I used this Pokemon' question. It's also why I'm so on the fence about Froslass and Gallade - they strike me as Pokemon that you need to have used yourself to fully understand. I might just not vote on those two tbh!
Heysup- you plan on voting 2 of the main reasons rhyperior isn't bl into bl. That obviously is going to affect its power in the tier...
Raikou-
Plan to vote: Abstaining
I've used it just a little bit and the amount of sweeping potential this thing has is crazy. You really need a couple checks on your team to be safe from it because the wrong hidden power means your check isn't a check at all. Specs lets it hit like a truck. Honestly though, I haven't used it enough to see its real limitations so can't in good faith vote on the thing (though the strengths are very apparent).
Gallade-
Plan to vote: BL
Since the shock of having him in uu has worn off and we have learned how to play around it a bit better I'm not seeing the SD set as the stall killer I was once convinced it was (thank you arcanine, the only fire type I've ever loved). However, he can still blow holes in a team in a way that screams overpowered. Plus when you think of his support options and use with choice items (which are rare for whatever reason) you get a pokemon that is simply too good for the lower tiers of play. Unlike Heysup, I disagree with him destroying stall prepared for gallade, but he defiantly stretches the stall really thin when used with the correct team mates.
Honchkrow-
Plan to vote: BL
I voted bl last vote because the stupid thing was broken then... Oh well. I shouldn't have to convince people this thing is broken anymore.
Froslass-
Plan to vote: BL (probably)
Froslass has been a toughie for me tbh. I see her missused OFTEN and so it distorts the reality of how good froslass really is. Thankfully she has been on almost every team I have made this test so I have a good idea of just how good she is. I don't think she is as bad as heysup makes her out to be... because she really isn't. Prolass is really nice and I give him props for the spread, but it to has issues. Honestly I think her general greatness as a uu in conjunction with hail support make her broken. Froslass is already very good, but in hail she is amazing... that simple. I know we are supposed to blame the hail in this situation, but I feel like she was so close to bl already that it is just the icing on the cake.
Rhyperior-
Plan to vote: abstain
Heysup said it all really. The problem with rhyperior is that the main things hindering its usefulness are under the microscope themselves. I see milotic becoming more popular after the suspects are removed (honch, gallade, and possibly raikou) Its going to make it through this test but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see it voted bl next test. Regirock on steroids is defiantly a pokemon to keep an eye on imo.
Alakazam- UU
lol... way overhyped. Spiritomb beats about any set that alakazam can muster. Sweeping isn't going to happen really. Specs hits hard, but even then only if you predict correctly... Screens aren't broken. Hes okay, and he may even become better next test, but as far as this one goes alakazam was a bit of a disappointment.
Raikou-
Plan to vote: Abstaining
I've used it just a little bit and the amount of sweeping potential this thing has is crazy. You really need a couple checks on your team to be safe from it because the wrong hidden power means your check isn't a check at all. Specs lets it hit like a truck. Honestly though, I haven't used it enough to see its real limitations so can't in good faith vote on the thing (though the strengths are very apparent).
Gallade-
Plan to vote: BL
Since the shock of having him in uu has worn off and we have learned how to play around it a bit better I'm not seeing the SD set as the stall killer I was once convinced it was (thank you arcanine, the only fire type I've ever loved). However, he can still blow holes in a team in a way that screams overpowered. Plus when you think of his support options and use with choice items (which are rare for whatever reason) you get a pokemon that is simply too good for the lower tiers of play. Unlike Heysup, I disagree with him destroying stall prepared for gallade, but he defiantly stretches the stall really thin when used with the correct team mates.
Honchkrow-
Plan to vote: BL
I voted bl last vote because the stupid thing was broken then... Oh well. I shouldn't have to convince people this thing is broken anymore.
Froslass-
Plan to vote: BL (probably)
Froslass has been a toughie for me tbh. I see her missused OFTEN and so it distorts the reality of how good froslass really is. Thankfully she has been on almost every team I have made this test so I have a good idea of just how good she is. I don't think she is as bad as heysup makes her out to be... because she really isn't. Prolass is really nice and I give him props for the spread, but it to has issues. Honestly I think her general greatness as a uu in conjunction with hail support make her broken. Froslass is already very good, but in hail she is amazing... that simple. I know we are supposed to blame the hail in this situation, but I feel like she was so close to bl already that it is just the icing on the cake.
Rhyperior-
Plan to vote: abstain
Heysup said it all really. The problem with rhyperior is that the main things hindering its usefulness are under the microscope themselves. I see milotic becoming more popular after the suspects are removed (honch, gallade, and possibly raikou) Its going to make it through this test but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see it voted bl next test. Regirock on steroids is defiantly a pokemon to keep an eye on imo.
Alakazam- UU
lol... way overhyped. Spiritomb beats about any set that alakazam can muster. Sweeping isn't going to happen really. Specs hits hard, but even then only if you predict correctly... Screens aren't broken. Hes okay, and he may even become better next test, but as far as this one goes alakazam was a bit of a disappointment.
Raikou:BL
Have I used it personally? No
Never used it, but against it i assure he's the one i hate the most. His sweeping capabilities are almost unmatched in UU(maybe only SD Sceptile and Swellow can match it).
Gallade:BL
Have I used it personally? No
This one is the most versatile of all "suspect pokes". It can spread status(any of them, form Toxic to Burn),it can serve as a good Bulk Upper with the stats on the right places, and can be a potent wallbreaker with Swords Dance and its base 125 attack.
Versatilty is what makes him so good.
Froslass:BL
Have I used it personally? No
Never used this one too.
But it centralizes the lead position too much. More than Ambipom. That alone to me is reason enough to send this to BL.
And the support movepool is great too.
Honchrow:BL
Have I used it personally? No
Kind of the Heatran of UU. Hits anything hard with Brave Bird. Sucker Punch takes faster enemies out. It can come in quite safely with his two immunities and start dishing hard, powerful attacks.
Besides, there's Absol to replace Honchrow... while it doesn't get a STAB 120 power attack, it gets basically the same thing Honchrow gets... and Swords Dance.
So Honchrow, do me a favor and go to BL...
Rhyperior:UU
Have I used it personally? No
He's good, hits damn hard and it's damn bulky. So why UU?
Speed, bad typing and... no easy sandstorm. I mean, once it took 56% from a Magmortar Fire Blast... come on, he's bulky physically, but in the special side it's damn lame.
Not to say it's weak to almost every priority attac out there(when trying Rock Polish sets)... Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Ice Shard, Bullet Punch. That's too much weaknesses.
He's a good potent poke, that's all. But those 673673 weaknesses hampers it too much.
Alakazam:UU
Have I used it personally? No
A faster Espeon with even less defenses, Encore, Focus Blast and that can't Baton Pass. That pretty much sums Alakazam up. It is just a little better Espeon, so why would Alakazam be BL?
Umbreon:UU
Have I used it personally? Yes
The only one that i used in UU.
Umbreon isn't too much for UU, of course not. Despite being the most consistent poke of all those(maybe because Umbreon is a tank, not a hard hitting poke).
There's no reason for Umbreon to be BL. I say he's the less "BL" of all those, but the most helpful one.
Have I used it personally? No
Never used it, but against it i assure he's the one i hate the most. His sweeping capabilities are almost unmatched in UU(maybe only SD Sceptile and Swellow can match it).
Gallade:BL
Have I used it personally? No
This one is the most versatile of all "suspect pokes". It can spread status(any of them, form Toxic to Burn),it can serve as a good Bulk Upper with the stats on the right places, and can be a potent wallbreaker with Swords Dance and its base 125 attack.
Versatilty is what makes him so good.
Froslass:BL
Have I used it personally? No
Never used this one too.
But it centralizes the lead position too much. More than Ambipom. That alone to me is reason enough to send this to BL.
And the support movepool is great too.
Honchrow:BL
Have I used it personally? No
Kind of the Heatran of UU. Hits anything hard with Brave Bird. Sucker Punch takes faster enemies out. It can come in quite safely with his two immunities and start dishing hard, powerful attacks.
Besides, there's Absol to replace Honchrow... while it doesn't get a STAB 120 power attack, it gets basically the same thing Honchrow gets... and Swords Dance.
So Honchrow, do me a favor and go to BL...
Rhyperior:UU
Have I used it personally? No
He's good, hits damn hard and it's damn bulky. So why UU?
Speed, bad typing and... no easy sandstorm. I mean, once it took 56% from a Magmortar Fire Blast... come on, he's bulky physically, but in the special side it's damn lame.
Not to say it's weak to almost every priority attac out there(when trying Rock Polish sets)... Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Ice Shard, Bullet Punch. That's too much weaknesses.
He's a good potent poke, that's all. But those 673673 weaknesses hampers it too much.
Alakazam:UU
Have I used it personally? No
A faster Espeon with even less defenses, Encore, Focus Blast and that can't Baton Pass. That pretty much sums Alakazam up. It is just a little better Espeon, so why would Alakazam be BL?
Umbreon:UU
Have I used it personally? Yes
The only one that i used in UU.
Umbreon isn't too much for UU, of course not. Despite being the most consistent poke of all those(maybe because Umbreon is a tank, not a hard hitting poke).
There's no reason for Umbreon to be BL. I say he's the less "BL" of all those, but the most helpful one.
I wouldn't really say that Hail is clearly the "strongest" team style in UU. I would just say that most people on the ladder have a hard time dealing with it just because they just don't know how. The fact that it's a stall team, coupled with its ability to tough out a losing battle after getting haxed(which normal stalls can't do) makes it very strong on the ladder. However, I find that against a decent percentage of well made teams that the opponent can beat our hail team with less prediction than is required on our part. (i.e. if they knew how to play against this playstyle, I would give them more than even odds to win)
On another note, HELL YES froslass is broken in hail
then those teams just aren't getting played often enough xia because I usually end up costing myself the match if I lose... I think hail is a much more dominating force than people give it credit for as long as froslass stays uu (walrein cant really get the job done by himself).
Ice Shard is better left to Curse sets imo. But to each his own...
And isn't priority the reason DDLapras runs Sub? Or is that just me???
Agreed. Hail teams are just the most annoying playing style I am to face. IMO it just lacked a pokémon other than Walrein that could cause some real trouble, and Froslass is that poké, being able to setup spikes, abuse Hail's evasion and sweep with STABed Blizzards, maybe being more of a problem than *OMG screams outloud and punches a wall until the hands start bleeding* Walrein (I just hate that Walrus).
i can attest to the effectiveness of hail because it has got me a rating of 1540 in a single day with an effective balanced-hail team i made. a lot of my victories came from hax thanks to offensive subfroslass which is capable of sweeping teams that don't prepare for STAB Blizzards. you add the fact i play with toxic spikes, many teams have a hard time dealing with my team.
I'm still unconvinced that hail is really as overpowered as you think. Though it's definitely one of the best team types in UU, the real edge that it has on the ladder is still mostly based on the inexperience and incompetence of UU ladderers in general against this team type, and its ability to tough out more wins after hax than standard stall.(it can execute its own strategy) Against a "good" player who understands how to play against hailstall, the playstyle is still very beatable, even with froslass on the team. Most strong offensive teams pack enough stuff like sleep powder/SD venu, honchkrow, gallade, blaziken, trick users etc. to give hail or just about any other stall a lot of trouble if used wisely.
I guess what I'm saying is that just because it's the most successful on the ladder, doesn't mean that hail is necessarily the best team type.
As a side note, I think because of the you, me, and IPL, a lot more people are suddenly trying hail on the ladder recently. :naughty:
Bluewind said:
Froslass is probably the biggest reason for hail's current effectiveness on the ladder. The other is perhaps the UU metagame shift caused by the introduction of other suspects. Hail loves life orbs :D
Pokemon: Raikou
How I'm voting?: BL
Have I personally used it?: Yes
Pokemon: Gallade
How I'm voting: UU
Have I used him personally? Yes
Pokemon: Honchkrow
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used it personally? Yes
Why am I voting BL: What everyone else has said
- Froslass UU
- Rhyperior UU
- Alakazam UU
- Umbreon UU
I really find no problems with any of the suspects except Honchkrow. Maybe it is due to the fact that my teams are flexible - I never really mind losing a poke. Synergy is there, but it's never very important. I personally only have had small problems with Raikou - otherwise it's been very easy to counter the rest. (again, excepting Krow)
On the flip side, I have swept so many times with a specially defensive Bulk Up Gallade it's not even funny. And that RP/SD Perior that I posted earlier. And Offensive CM Raikou.
The thing is, I think the metagame could easily (and has already somewhat) shifted to counter them. I've seen less and less Gallade and Rhyperior. Lots of Raikou and Honchkrow, but not as much Gallade and Perior.
Froslass has been a dominating prescense in the lead spot, but not enough to warrant BL. Leads like Lemi's Spiritomb are fabulous at shutting down Froslass - it either gets one layer and dies or taunts then dies. Not used in the lead spot I can see it warranting problems though, but I doubt the metagame will ever shift that way - it's weakness to SR gives it much less presence out of the lead spot. One layer of spikes is not gamebreaking anyways - at least definitely not as much as SR is.
Alakazam has filled a couple niches in the meta - TrickSpecs, a fast DuelScreener, and a pretty powerful attacker. It's weakness to pretty much all priority hurts it though, although with Krow leaving soon there might be some problems.
How I'm voting?: BL
Have I personally used it?: Yes
Pokemon: Gallade
How I'm voting: UU
Have I used him personally? Yes
Pokemon: Honchkrow
How I'm voting: BL
Have I used it personally? Yes
Why am I voting BL: What everyone else has said
- Froslass UU
- Rhyperior UU
- Alakazam UU
- Umbreon UU
I really find no problems with any of the suspects except Honchkrow. Maybe it is due to the fact that my teams are flexible - I never really mind losing a poke. Synergy is there, but it's never very important. I personally only have had small problems with Raikou - otherwise it's been very easy to counter the rest. (again, excepting Krow)
On the flip side, I have swept so many times with a specially defensive Bulk Up Gallade it's not even funny. And that RP/SD Perior that I posted earlier. And Offensive CM Raikou.
The thing is, I think the metagame could easily (and has already somewhat) shifted to counter them. I've seen less and less Gallade and Rhyperior. Lots of Raikou and Honchkrow, but not as much Gallade and Perior.
Froslass has been a dominating prescense in the lead spot, but not enough to warrant BL. Leads like Lemi's Spiritomb are fabulous at shutting down Froslass - it either gets one layer and dies or taunts then dies. Not used in the lead spot I can see it warranting problems though, but I doubt the metagame will ever shift that way - it's weakness to SR gives it much less presence out of the lead spot. One layer of spikes is not gamebreaking anyways - at least definitely not as much as SR is.
Alakazam has filled a couple niches in the meta - TrickSpecs, a fast DuelScreener, and a pretty powerful attacker. It's weakness to pretty much all priority hurts it though, although with Krow leaving soon there might be some problems.
Our hail team doesn't lead with froslass nor do most hail teams where froslass is at her best.
@ I think enough hail teams have been at the one spot long enough in the test to make this statement, not just going solely on the one we made. SD venu wont beat our stall at all, but I get what your saying. Yeah, I've been noticing more hail teams today as well...
Gallade's usage has been decreasing for a couple reasons. First, people are bored of it. Second, stall is practically non-existent (don't say "but I use stall", because you are one person (at no one in particular, I can just tell someone is going to say that)). Raikou and Honchkrow have moved up in usage because of their awesome offensive synergy, and their effectiveness versus offensive and especially balance teams.
I was going to make a long post complaining that all the offesive Pokemon are always getting the shaft... but then I realised with Raikou, Gallade, and Honchkrow gone my Specs Venusaur can sweep even more teams. Though its not like many things stop him anyways.
Originally I was going to post that all 'suspects' bar Umbreon were BL worthy however you guys persuaded me otherwise. On top of what you guys have deemed BL I would like to add my own additions.
Mismaggy:
Support. Mismaggy has access to a crazy amount of supportive moves. It can effectively run a Trick Specs or Scarf set, with a Nasty Plot it can punch holes into teams with little effort, it can also run a bulky-Taunt set to utterly destroy most forms of stall teams, and on top of that it can use Mean Look + Perish Song kill practically anything.
Venusaur:
Support. Venusaur is such a versiile Pokemon and lets face it nothing can switch into him safely. Example sets would be any Choice Item, SD, Mixed, and SubSeed. He has great natural bulk and great typing.
Others to be added:
Magmotar
Milotic
Registeel
Moltres
Slobro
Dugtrio
Originally I was going to post that all 'suspects' bar Umbreon were BL worthy however you guys persuaded me otherwise. On top of what you guys have deemed BL I would like to add my own additions.
Mismaggy:
Support. Mismaggy has access to a crazy amount of supportive moves. It can effectively run a Trick Specs or Scarf set, with a Nasty Plot it can punch holes into teams with little effort, it can also run a bulky-Taunt set to utterly destroy most forms of stall teams, and on top of that it can use Mean Look + Perish Song kill practically anything.
Venusaur:
Support. Venusaur is such a versiile Pokemon and lets face it nothing can switch into him safely. Example sets would be any Choice Item, SD, Mixed, and SubSeed. He has great natural bulk and great typing.
Others to be added:
Magmotar
Milotic
Registeel
Moltres
Slobro
Dugtrio
Good doesn't mean broken. Just as many people yell Suspect in OU when something becomes often seen/standard, you can't use personal opinion to deem brokeness. Magmortar has hardly seen enough usage in UU for anyone to know if it's even broken or not. Also, versatile doesn't mean broken. I mean, it'd be terribly boring if every pokemon could only run one set viably.
edit:
Wait, only pokemon deemed uber under the offensive characteristic matter? I don't understand what you mean by "good doesn't mean broken when using it to refer to defensive pokemon..." You mention Registeel and Slowbro, both very defensive pokemon. It seems you just don't like being swept more than you like being walled.
I said we haven't seen Magmortar enough in UU to know if it's broken or not. Granted your testimony may be proof enough to you, but the rest of us need more convincing. I do understand usage =/= brokeness. However it's low usage in Oct, #68 right between to Nidoqueen and Charizard, may be a slight indication no else thinks it's broken either.
edit:
Wait, only pokemon deemed uber under the offensive characteristic matter? I don't understand what you mean by "good doesn't mean broken when using it to refer to defensive pokemon..." You mention Registeel and Slowbro, both very defensive pokemon. It seems you just don't like being swept more than you like being walled.
I said we haven't seen Magmortar enough in UU to know if it's broken or not. Granted your testimony may be proof enough to you, but the rest of us need more convincing. I do understand usage =/= brokeness. However it's low usage in Oct, #68 right between to Nidoqueen and Charizard, may be a slight indication no else thinks it's broken either.
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