Never-Will-Be-Used Tier (exciting battle proposition enclosed)

shstakvchlvr

shstakvchlvr

Disclaimer:
I'm not looking to have a tournament, all I’m looking for is a group of people who’d be interested in battling with each other in this unique tier (discussed in detail below). Also, I wasn't sure in which area of the forums to post this, so I apologize if this isn't the correct place.

*Ahem*

Have you ever felt like OU is too bland and predictable? Seeing the same Pokemon over and over with the same movesets? Maybe you’ve moved on to UU to see what was up there, only to get trampled by Crobat, then Yanmega, and now Raikou. Well, that’s what happened to me, and while I still love UU, I’ve been experimenting a lot recently with NU and have decided to take it one step further and create a tier consisting of the worst of the worst. I’m not putting any of these Pokemon down, as I’m sure we’ve all used a few in a team before (Mothim, Solrock, Venomoth), but here is where they really shine.

Nowhere else is Farfetch’d a feared attacker!

Nowhere else is Wormadam-S a loathsome staller!

Nowhere else is Seaking one of the best Rain Dance sweepers!

Well, all your wildest dreams of sweeping with some of the “worst” pokemon are about to come true!

Anyone who would be interested in following these rules listed below, making a team or two, and battling occasionally with them, just post your Shoddy name below and we can look for each other whenever we're on and send a battle request. :toast: Mine is jynxscoldsore.

Never-Will-Be-Used Tier:

All pokemon:

1) Must be from the NU tier or NFE.
2) Must have a BST less than or equal to 450.
3) All individual base stats must be less than or equal to 100.

Special bans:

1) Azumarill and Medicham, while fitting all the requirements listed above, are banned due to their abilities: Huge Power and Pure Power, respectively.
2) Light Ball (on Pikachu) and DeepSeaTooth (on Clamperl) are banned.
3) Shelgon is banned.** [Discussed in next post]

I’ve comprised a list of all eligible NU pokemon for your convenience:
-Venomoth
-Cherrim
-Seaking
-Noctowl
-Fearow
-Lunatone
-Vigoroth*
-Solrock
-Arbok
-Pelipper
-Quagsire
-Qwilfish
-Chimecho
-Mothim
-Wormadam-S
-Castform
-Mightyena
-Linoone
-Dunsparce
-Furret
-Masquerain
-Raticate
-Chatot
-Bibarel
-Plusle
-Minun
-Parasect
-Pachirisu
-Illumise
-Volbeat
-Ariados
-Beautifly
-Butterfree
-Dustox
-Beedrill
-Kricketune
-Sableye
-Corsola
-Delcatty
-Mawile
-Spinda
-Farfetch’d
-Clamperl*
-Unown
-Delibird
-Luvdisc
-Pikachu*
-Trapinch*
-Ditto
-Shedinja

*Yes, I know they’re NFE, but they’re listed under the NU tier on Smogon so I decided to list them here to avoid confusion.

I’ve also made a list of the banned NFE Pokemon:
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Rhydon
-Dusclops
-Golbat
-Munchlax
-Wailmer
-Jigglypuff
-Cranidos
-Krabby
-Onix
-Lairon
-Nosepass
-Shieldon
-Graveler
-Tangela
-Gligar
-Kadabra
-Haunter
-Abra
-Mantyke
-Togetic
-Sneasel
-Shelgon

All other NFE Pokemon are eligible for battle.

I don’t want this to turn into battles between NFE OU Pokemon; play around with the NU Pokemon you never got to competitively battle with before. Fun fact: Farfetch’d outspeeds and OHKOs Pupitar with Leaf Blade. Could you do that in OU against Tyranitar?

More interesting facts about this tier:

1) Lunatone and Chimecho boast the second-highest SpA in the tier (just behind Gastly and Roselia), and their access to Calm Mind and good defenses make them powerful and sturdy special sweepers.

2) Qwilfish, with its base 85 Spe and base 95 Atk, is one of the best non-Dragon physical sweepers in the tier.

3) In terms of the Dragon Dancers we’re all familiar with:
-Seadra loses out on Dragon-typing, Swift Swim, and base 95 Atk, but keeps its 95/85 SpA/Spe, making it a far better special sweeper than Dragon Dancer.
-Pupitar gains 4x weakness to Grass and Water but loses the Bug weakness and also gets Shed Skin, which makes getting burned not as devastating as it could be.
-Dragonair is one of the most powerful Dragon Dancers, with its solid attack, good speed and, of course, access to the most powerful and reliable priority move in the game: ExtremeSpeed.

4) No longer do you have to worry about Scizor! There are only 6 eligible Steel-types in this tier, the 4 most viable options being: Mawile (base 85 Atk), Metang (base 75 Atk), Magnemite (base 95 SpA), and the most defensive of them all – Wormadam-S (60/95/95).

5) Slowpoke actually has a decent Atk stat for this metagame (base 65) while its SpA stat is sup-par (base 40). With its good physical defenses (90/65) and access to Curse, Slowpoke becomes a great defensive wall and physical attacker. Just make sure no special moves are thrown its way due to its base 40 SpD.

6) Without any fat pink blobs running around, you might think it’s safe to use special attacks freely again. Well, you’d be wrong. So, who’s the new Blissey of the NWBU tier? Noctowl (100 HP / 96 SpD)! If you thought it was annoying in UU, just wait ‘til you’re up against one here.

**Shelgon’s +1 Outrage demolishes the entire metagame. Adamant Shelgon 2HKOs Choice Band Metang 100% of the time while Metang fails to OHKO back with Meteor Mash, and while it’s only a 3HKO against Impish max HP / max Def Wormadam-S, theres nothing the bagworm can really do back. The best way to defeat an Adamant Shelgon is to switch in a Timid Specs Pokemon with at least Base 90 Spe (like Venomoth or Plusle) with HP Ice. Jolly Shelgon, however, fails to 2HKO Metang and will be 2HKO’d back, but the ONLY safe counter for Jolly Shelgon is Choice Scarf Seadra w/ Ice Beam (switch in as it DDs). But therein lies the problem: one doesn’t know whether it’s Jolly or Adamant, meaning that every team would have to pack a Choice Scarf Seadra with Ice Beam in order to ensure it won’t lose most of its members. Since this one Pokemon would control how players build their teams in this metagame, I’ve decided it should be banned.
 
Clearly you're very passionate about this which is nice to see. Honestly though I don't think many people will be interested, just based on the number of people playing OU, UU, and NU. The trend seems indicate that few people are interested in a metagame based on weak pokemon. But from your post I sense that you're only looking for a small group of dedicated players, which I guess could work. Here's some advice I can give:

- Don't make assumptions about what's broken before testing it out. We've all learned the errors of making tiers based on theorymon. So don't go ahead and ban Shelgon yet.
- You really shouldn't base your tier in general on some obscure criteria like a base-stat cutoff. But then again it's not like an official NU tier list is coming out anytime soon from which you could create a more accurate "Never Will Be Used" tier, so there's not much you can really do here. I guess the only thing you can do is be flexible about testing things if people disagree with your initial tiering.

Good luck with this!
 
I like this idea, but I think we should move it down to under 400 BST, as some of the Pokemon in 400-450 range are still really powerful. Oh, and you might want to ban Smeargle and Wynaut too, for obvious reasons.
 
3) All individual base stats must be less than or equal to 100.

I dont think this rule should be applied. Nosepass sucks as a pokemon, yet he is banned because his defense is too high. Jiggypuff has high HP but shitastic defenses and both have any hardly offense (like base 45 for both attacking stats, which is shit). I dont think that BST should be a reason for incorporating a pokemon in the tier. Also wouldnt Intimidate Mawile make a good Outrage Shelgon counter?

I can also see Venomoth as a threat, with Tinted Lens and choice specs nothing is a real guarenteed switch in.

Anyway, I'd be glad to test it out. I think I have seen you on Shoddy before so If I see you again I'll give you a shout.
 
You could have used my Base Stats Ratings applet and have a much better ban list.

However, why not just play something like Little Cup if you like using the minnows?

I'll leave this open for the time being, though I have a gut feeling that this thread won't be left open for long.
 
I'd maybe play, cus I've always wanted to sweep a team with Furret or Delcatty.

Or Farfetch'd. :naughty:

So where are you gonna do this? A new server, or an existing one, or even Wi-Fi?
 
4) No longer do you have to worry about Scizor! There are only 6 eligible Steel-types in this tier, the 4 most viable options being: Mawile (base 85 Atk), Metang (base 75 Atk), Magnemite (base 95 SpA), and the most defensive of them all – Wormadam-S (60/95/95).
Click to expand...
Hey, Aron deserves at least a mention here. Case in point, its Head Smash hits just as hard as Rhydon's Stone Edge.

The 100 base or less rule sounds strange to me, and I also disagree on the reasoning for banning Shelgon over Dragonair and Gabite (and many other things), but whatever.
 
I really don't understand. How is this so different from NU that a whole other tier must be constructed? From looking over your list of usable Pokemon, it looks exactly like the NU list. Even Little Cup would suffice. I really just want to know what would be so special about this.

Edit: Actally, what I realized that this seems like is NU after some pokemon have been banned...
 
shstakvchlvr said:
2) Must have a BST less than or equal to 450.
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So your trying to tell me that the worst 3 stage evolution besides the level 10 bugs (well, Beedril, Dustox, and Beutifly anyway: Butterfree is decent) is banned under these rules (that would be Pidgeot.)

Nope, nope. An NU tier WITHOUT Pidgeot? Maybe a rethinking of the rules would be in order. Wait, what am I saying? DEFINATELY rethink the rules.
 
The "tier list" sounds good in theory, but has so many flaws in reality. Abra (base stats 25/20/15/105/55/90) is banned yet Gastly (30/35/30/100/35/80) and Roselia (50/60/45/100/80/65) are allowed.

Roselia has 5 less SA and 25 speed but has access to a "brilliant" support movepool in Spikes/TS, SubSeed, Ingrain and Aromatherapy in addition to double powders. It can be a special sweeper with Growth/Energy Ball/Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb or even surprise its counters by going with gimmicky physical or mixed sets since it has access to SD, Seed Bomb, Poison Jab, Return, Pin Missile and Leaf Storm.

Gastly gets Hypnosis, Destiny Bond, Explosion and Perish Song to incapasitate or get around with his counters, and Energy Ball/Sludge Bomb or Psychic/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt has fantastic coverage.

What can Abra do? Despite having higher SA and Spd than the 2 aforementioned Pokes, it is incredibly frail, even moreso than Gastly. The only useful support moves it gets are Encore and Trick, which are predictable. Well, there is CM? Good luck trying to set up with 25/15/55 lulzy defenses. Offensively, Psychic/Shadow Ball/Charge Beam/Energy Ball rapes the metagame just as much as Gastly does.

The idea seems solid, but we need more... precise tiering rules.
 
I think NU will be much more appealing, once there is a ban list for the tier outside of UU. NU-BL, if you will. The fact that two thirds of the Pokemon in the NU tier are useless within the tier should tell us something. Things like Medicham, and Charizard should not be in the lowest possible tier. It should be reserved for the Castforms, Farfetch'd, and Ariados' of the world.
 
Seems like we're seeing the fact that base stats aren't everything. Something already apparent from the presence of 580BST total legendaries in UU.

I see the motivation for limiting them. It is, after all, pretty much the only hope to create a tier that is objective, balanced, and not usage-based. (Little Cup has a banlist, so it's not fully objective.)
Limiting BST keeps all-round strong Pokemon out, while limiting individual stats keeps out Pokemon that might be overpowering. Yes, both will also eliminate Pokemon that WOULDN'T be broken, but I can't see any way around that.

The original proposal doesn't meet this idea, however, in basing it on the NU tier.

So maybe a better idea would be a tier based solely on base stat limits, with an additional clause that any item or ability that grants only some Pokemon an automatic stat boost is banned. (Kicking out Huge/Pure Powerers, Light Ball on Pikachu, etc)

But why not set the BST limit REALLY low? A limit of 300, or even 250 - now THAT'S the realm of the really weak Pokemon! A metagame where Endure+Flail+Salac Berry Feebas might just sweep, where Marril and Metapod are the best physical walls. One where major LC threats like Bronzor and Dratini are not even allowed.
 
I like this idea for a tier, but I think there are two problems with it.

The first problem is your idea for a tier system. Instead of just picking Pokemon which are known to suck, you went with a system based off of BST. In doing so, you've removed unbroken Pokemon like Abra and Jigglypuff, while at the same time allowed in some fearsome sweepers that can devastate even OU teams, namely Raticate and Venomoth.

The other problem, IMO, is that your requirements aren't strict enough. Sure, you may now have a metagame that uses Raticate, Venomoth, Seaking, and Mightyena, but how is that any different from just another NU? If you really want something original, I recommend what the above poster said (though not regarding BST) and just go with the worst pokemon in the game. A metagame inolving Unown and Ditto would be quite interesting indeed.
 
No matter how much you break the tiers down... there are always going to be some pokes which are more powerful and will be used more often and some pokes that just plain suck.

NU, IMO, is diverse enough already. There are a wide range of pokes that are viable in that tier and their really isn't anything I have ran into that is "OMG SO BROKEN"

If you want to use NFE's... play against people who use NFE's. It is actually quite popular for some odd reason.

Like playing with baby pokes? Play little cup.

I see no reason for a NWBU tier. There will just be pokes that will never be used their too... gonna make another tier called "REALLY will never be used?"
 
We already have 4 tiers, OU, UU, NU, and LC. Ubers could be counted as it's a commonly played in metagame. At some point we have to stop with the tiering. We already have 493 pokemon. If there are even 70 pokemon per tier, which is an extreme exaggeration, as OU tends to hover around 50 and Ubers is at 23, then that makes for 7 until everyone is happy. As you can probably see, at some point, we must draw the line, and I think where we are at now is just right.

What you also have attempted to do is make a tier based on BST, which is very objective, and is not at all based on stats. What this doesn't take in is things like movepool. One person mentioned Roselia which is a very good example. Also, for example, have you ever noticed that Salamence, Jirachi, and Cresselia all have the same BST of 600? How those stats are spread out over the different categories is important too. Scizor may only have a BST of 500, but it easily sits atop OU, which is another point that BST has very little to do with a pokemon's ability.
 
Yeah, I understand the issues everyone's presenting, and I chose the base stat rule because it was so much easier than basing it on total defensive capability or on attacking movepool. I know its arbitrary and pokemon like Metang, who are far more threatening than Jigglypuff ever could be, are allowed, but I'm willing to bend the rules a little and playtest with anyone who is interested to actually see which pokemon work and which dont and if we should actually lower the BST threshold. It definitely is theorymon at this point as I've only had maybe 8 or so battles and they've all been against one person with different teams (that's actually why I raised the individual stat criteria to 100, because before Outrage would be unstoppable without high-defense steels). I'd also be on board with cutting Dragons altogether and lowering the criteria to have a truly NWBU tier, since as soon as I told the other player about the requirement, his team was full with 4 Dragons (going against the whole concept of Never-Will-Be-Used haha).

And, I have played LC and I have played NU. So far, this playstyle feels more like LC or Ubers than NU, which is interesting. And LC doesn't get me what I want; there are no second-stage pokes, there are no single-stage pokes, there are move-restrictions, etc. I wanna sweep with Illumise for god's sake haha.

DJXO9 said:
We already have 4 tiers, OU, UU, NU, and LC. Ubers could be counted as it's a commonly played in metagame. At some point we have to stop with the tiering. We already have 493 pokemon. If there are even 70 pokemon per tier, which is an extreme exaggeration, as OU tends to hover around 50 and Ubers is at 23, then that makes for 7 until everyone is happy. As you can probably see, at some point, we must draw the line, and I think where we are at now is just right.
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I'm not proposing at all that I make this tier legit on Smogon or anything; like I stated above, I'm just looking for a small group of people who think battling under these guidelines would be fun to do occasionally. NU doesn't even have a ladder on Shoddy, why would I think this would be developed into a real tier? I understand we'd have to "draw the line" if I weren't just doing this for the reasons stated before.

EvilMario said:
I think NU will be much more appealing, once there is a ban list for the tier outside of UU. NU-BL, if you will. The fact that two thirds of the Pokemon in the NU tier are useless within the tier should tell us something. Things like Medicham, and Charizard should not be in the lowest possible tier. It should be reserved for the Castforms, Farfetch'd, and Ariados' of the world.
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Exactly, but this was my small way of trying to expedite that process and battle a few times using the most terrible pokemon I could imagine. It's sad though, even here Luvdisc is terrible. I think the only place where Luvdisc would shine is in a tier of itself.
 
The NU ladder is on Doug's server, as is LC. If I'm not mistaken, these were also going to be implemented on Shoddy 2. Otherwise, if you want to make your own server, and do something like this, by all means, go for it. I might also wait on Shoddy 2 anyways if you're going to go ahead with this.
 
Luvdisc is far from the worst Pokemon there is.

I reckon Caterpie is probably the worst Pokemon. It gets Tackle, String Shot, Bug Bite, and Snore. That's it. Weedle and Wurmple can at least try to poison. Ditto could have a niche in double battles (transform it into Shuckle to make a serious mixed wall). Unown has the advantage of unpredictability. Magikarp gets Flail for some power. All the other Pokemon with low stats have better movepools.
 
As an NU player, I have to say, many of the pokemon you listed are completely viable. Venemoth was considered a possible suspect in early NU. Quagsire is extremely useful as well.

If you really want to go through with this concept, I think it should be based on NU usage, not BSTs.

And this was proposed in a less elegant way a couple months ago, amirite?
 
Really? Venomoth? Tinted Lens, Toxic Spikes, Sleep Powder?
Chatot has huge SpAtk and Speed and Nasty Plot
Bibarel, lol, you Baton Pass him ANYTHING and he rapes

Linoone. Are you serious.
 
There are a few things that are confusing about this. First of all, what you are suggesting isn't really a tier (since it isn't usage based), it's a metagame, like Little Cup or Ubers. Given a sufficient period of time, it's pretty likely that there will eventually be more of a process developed for the NU metagame, at which time there may be more discussion about tiers beneath NU. So basically, if you want a metagame where Wormadan-S is viable, we'll probably get there eventually, though likely not any time very soon. I'm not at all opposed to seeing something "like this" in the meantime, though things like bans, rules, etc. should really be developed as a community rather than by fiat from one player.
 
shstakvchlvr said:
Exactly, but this was my small way of trying to expedite that process and battle a few times using the most terrible pokemon I could imagine. It's sad though, even here Luvdisc is terrible. I think the only place where Luvdisc would shine is in a tier of itself.
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You haven't expedited the balancing process by banning pokemon based on BST, just made the tier far more unbalanced than NU. Like Wavedash said, a lot of the Pokemon here aren't even close to the same level as the other ones, and the metagame for this tier would be even more centralized than that of the ubers metagame, which is kind of the opposite of the point of a tier like this.
 
reachzero said:
There are a few things that are confusing about this. First of all, what you are suggesting isn't really a tier (since it isn't usage based), it's a metagame, like Little Cup or Ubers. Given a sufficient period of time, it's pretty likely that there will eventually be more of a process developed for the NU metagame, at which time there may be more discussion about tiers beneath NU. So basically, if you want a metagame where Wormadan-S is viable, we'll probably get there eventually, though likely not any time very soon. I'm not at all opposed to seeing something "like this" in the meantime, though things like bans, rules, etc. should really be developed as a community rather than by fiat from one player.
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I don't mind waiting for that to happen, but like I said at the beginning of my first post, I'm JUST looking for a few people who'd be interested in battling under these guidelines. I'm not looking to instate something like this as an entire new metagame with all bans made by me; I just wanted to find some battlers who'd be interested in trying this out. I don't know how many more different ways I can state my goal, as I've already done it a few times. It seems like a lot of people posting here are thinking I'm trying to get done more than I actually am.

And the Linoone thing; yes I know it's insane, but it fits the guidelines I have so far. If anyone wants to battle with these guidelines with me and we find its too powerful, then we'll just agree not to use it. Same goes for Venomoth or any other Pokemon. What I said in my first post are just some rules to get us started.

It really is a fun mini-metagame. From what I've played, Qwilfish is extremely threatening, Shedinja can actually sweep, Noctowl is even more frustrating, and Choice Scarf Gabite is a great revenge killer. It's fun finding these niches and I hope to find more interesting ones in the future after battling some more, and that's all I'm really looking for out of this: some fun. Nothing too serious.
 
The NU ladder is on Doug's server, as is LC. If I'm not mistaken, these were also going to be implemented on Shoddy 2. Otherwise, if you want to make your own server, and do something like this, by all means, go for it. I might also wait on Shoddy 2 anyways if you're going to go ahead with this.
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What is doug´s server? i NEED to play damn NU ladder
 
The "never-will-be-used" tier is probably what the tier under the current NU will be. I mean, at that point you're dipping pretty heavily into NFEs and the crap Pokemon.

Of course, there are even some FE Pokemon that will just never be used under any circumstances. I don't think I'd want Unown on my team in any tier which consists of at least 7 pokemon.
 
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