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Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

Salamence as a Suspect?

  • Yes - Offensive Characteristic

    Votes: 223 29.7%
  • Yes - Defensive Characteristic

    Votes: 7 0.9%
  • Yes - Support Characteristic

    Votes: 26 3.5%
  • No - It Fits No Characteristic

    Votes: 414 55.2%
  • I'm Not Sure

    Votes: 80 10.7%

  • Total voters
    750
Status
Not open for further replies.
Life Orb Salamence is wrecked by the most commonly used Pokemon in the metagame. Salamence is fragile, sports a stealth rock weakness, and is destroyed by thunder wave. Outrage is "please come in, steel types."

"Oh, but if you set it up to eliminate steels, he'll be fine." Except you can replace steels with anything and you'll be able to justify any offensive threat in OU. Scarf Latias, arguably the most popular scarf user, comes in on even DD Mence sets and KOs. Mamoswine and Weavile, two very reliable and potent checks for Salamence see very little usage because they are not needed (and because of Scizors.)

And no, it doesn't limit your team that much. If you're not running something faster than 100 base speed, then you're either running a very bulky offensive team or stall. Both of which have the tools to take hits from Salamence. He might dent your team, but then what? He dies in exchange for dealing half damage to a couple pokemon? Priority/Scarf kill DD salamence, but that's how we deal with EVERY DD pokemon. Bulky mence is rare for a reason. It doesn't threaten nearly as well.
 
As stated before, you have to remember that Salamence only has a definite "counter" in Steel-types, as they are the only ones which can reliably take Draco Meteor or Outrage. In the case of Jirachi, it can be countered by several Pokemon such as Gyarados, Heatran, Suicune, etc. Hidden Power Ground isn't going to do you much if the opponent doesn't have Heatran. With Salamence however, since anything that isn't Steel will likely die or be severely crippled by your Dragon-type attack of choice, it isn't hard to use just Earthquake or Fire Blast to KO the Steel-type switch-in. You could argue that it is prediction, which it is to a certain extent, but there isn't much you can do when you are left with little option but to "respond predictably".

It may be true that Steel-types are the best counter to Salamence in general, but also consider that Steel-types are the most common type of Pokemon in found in OU, so it's not like they're in short supply. And even if the opposing team doesn't have Salamence, it's not like those Steel-types were wasted, because they have A LOT more purpose than just countering a single Pokemon or type of Pokemon. Plus, the more I think about it, bulky Water-types like Suicune, Vaporeon, and Swampert all make great Mence Counters.

Finally when you consider Salamence's nasty SR weakness along with his frailty compared with bulkier Pokemon like Metagross, Swampert, and Tyranitar. It all balances out and makes him suitable for OU.

BST is less important that individual stats. Jirachi's a lot UNLIKE Salamence in that Jirachi's offenses are 100/100, much weaker than Mence's 135/110. Mence also gets STAB on the single best attacking type, and 140 and 120 Base Power moves; Jirachi's best STABs have 80 and 90 BP. If Jirachi got Psycho Boost and Meteor Mash it would be a much bigger threat.

In a way, Mence is like 'the perfect storm'. Great offensive stats on both sides. The best attacking type in the game, with its most powerful moves. Powerful moves that hit SE the one type that resists its STAB. One of the better boosting moves. A good ability. Even reliable recovery (not that it's often used). No one of these things make Salamence suspect, but put together...I think it is.

Okay, but if you're going to point out the difference in their offensive stats, you have to look at their defenses as well.

Jirachi: 100/100/100
Salamence: 95/80/80

Like I said before, it balances out. Salamence trades these 100 defenses for the powerful offense, thereby making him more frail and prone to damage from neutral attacks. Also, Steel is most common type in the OU metagame right now, so saying that it's the only type that resists dragon isn't exactly a bad thing considering how present Steel-types are.
 
It's a ridiculous nitpick, but Salamence actually does have two non-Uber counters - ScarfCune with Ice Beam and ScarfCress with Ice Beam. I know they're so overspecialised it doesn't really count (although pre-Garchomp ban I had a ScarfCune and it worked wonders in general, being fast and bulky while still being able to hit with moderate force is beautiful), but they do exist.
 
It may be true that Steel-types are the best counter to Salamence in general, but also consider that Steel-types are the most common type of Pokemon in found in OU, so it's not like they're in short supply. And even if the opposing team doesn't have Salamence, it's not like those Steel-types were wasted, because they have A LOT more purpose than just countering a single Pokemon or type of Pokemon. Plus, the more I think about it, bulky Water-types like Suicune, Vaporeon, and Swampert all make great Mence Counters.

+1 (Naive) Outrage vs Crocune: 546 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 255 - 300 (63.12% - 74.26%)

+1 (Naive) Outrage vs Standard Vaporeon: 546 Atk vs 240 Def & 448 HP (120 Base Power): 382 - 450 (85.27% - 100.45%)

+1 (Naive) Outrage vs MixPert: 546 Atk vs 306 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 298 - 352 (73.76% - 87.13%)

It takes Stealth Rock + ~12% extra damage to OHKO all of those Pokemon with Outrage. They might be able to counter MixMence (although I'm sure DM + Outrage does a lot), but they can't stop Dragon Dance Salamence.



Finally when you consider Salamence's nasty SR weakness along with his frailty compared with bulkier Pokemon like Metagross, Swampert, and Tyranitar. It all balances out and makes him suitable for OU.

You don't compare how bulky he is to determine how powerful he is. So what if he isn't as bulky as Metagross? He won't be taking any hits when he's just about OHKOing common Pokemon. He also has intimidate, effectively making him stronger on the physical defensive side on his first switch in, which may open up an opportunity to sweep or set up.

Okay, but if you're going to point out the difference in their offensive stats, you have to look at their defenses as well.

Jirachi: 100/100/100
Salamence: 95/80/80

Like I said before, it balances out. Salamence trades these 100 defenses for the powerful offense, thereby making him more frail and prone to damage from neutral attacks. Also, Steel is most common type in the OU metagame right now, so saying that it's the only type that resists dragon isn't exactly a bad thing considering how present Steel-types are.

Again, that doesn't mean anything. Jirachi doesn't have Salamence's power; it can't faint Pokemon that are going to hit it as easily as Salamence can. Also, so what if Steel-types are the most prevalent in OU? Salamence carries both Earthquake and Fire Blast in it's arsenal commonly, meaning it can fight them off as well. Just because Steel-types resist one type of move doesn't mean they resist his whole moveset.
 
It takes Stealth Rock + ~12% extra damage to OHKO all of those Pokemon with Outrage. They might be able to counter MixMence (although I'm sure DM + Outrage does a lot), but they can't stop Dragon Dance Salamence.

You do know that Salamence doesn't get +1 attack by switching in, right?
 
Offensive Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.


First, I'm going to start by attempting to define the Offensive Characteristic a little more clearly. I myself do not entirely agree with the give criteria for an Uber, however, I will attempt as best I can to work within the given parameters. First of all, I'm going to quantify the vaguer terms. Common battle conditions applies to anything that happens in at least 33% + 1 of battles Salamence participates in – large enough to avoid a super majority against it, which is - while arbitrary, I admit - a decent benchmark. Because team variety is so high, even attempting to define “a significant portion of teams would be a useless endeavour, so I won't bother. Instead, I'll split teams up into their individual pieces – Pokemon. Rather than using a “significant portion of teams in the metagame”, I shall define it as a “significant portion of Pokemon in the metagame”. Here, a significant portion will be 50% + 1, or in other words, the majority of Pokemon in the metagame, and the metagame shall be the OU Standard Metagame, with the inclusion of Salamence. Again, significant is arbitrary, I am aware of that flaw.


The reason why I've used the OU Standard Metagame, with the inclusion of Salamence, as a judge of common conditions and teams, as opposed to without Salamence is thus: Smogon's philosophy is the we ban as little as possible while maintaining a high level of diversity and balance. As such, everything is considered allowed, unless explicitly otherwise stated. We're not taking a metagame without Salamence, and seeing if we should add it, we're taking a metagame with Salamence, and seeing if we should remove it, and I think this is a crucial point. I'm aware some of those reading this may think that this is flawed, because any metagame with a powerful threat will centralize around it to a certain extent, and therefore Salamence's effects may be masked, but I believe it is better than the alternative option


Finally, the term “with little effort”. I'm going to define “little effort” as “given one turn's free set-up”. This takes very little effort – Salamence has perfect synergy with a large list of Pokemon – Metagross, Lucario, Jirachi, Magnezone, and Bronzong. Their weaknesses are Fire, occasionally Fighting, and Ground, which Salamence resists (Fire, Fighting) and is immune to (Ground), and Salamence's weaknesses are Ice, Rock, and Dragon, which all of the listed Pokemon resist (Lucario even has the advantage of a 4x Rock resistance). Under common conditions, Salamence will have the backup of at least one of these Pokemon – a significant portion (as defined earlier) of Salamences will be supported by at least one, and the first three listed, Metagross, Lucario, and Jirachi, are among Salamence's five most common team-mates. (Salamence is paired with Metagross 24.79% of the time, Lucario 22.18% of the time, and by Jirachi 20.75% of the time. Magnezone is also notable at 12.69% of the time, but not to the same degree as the first three. Bronzong partnership is negligible.)


All of these Pokemon are likely to draw Fire, Fighting or Ground attacks that will allow Salamence to switch in with relative ease, and for free if it was a Ground type attack. This is compounded by the fact that over 80% of Fighting type attacks used are Physical based, which Salamence's Intimidate will reduce to 67% damage. The only trouble Salamence has, is with Stealth Rocks sapping 25% of it's HP upon switch in, and Sandstorm damage, which are both common conditions. However, it is easy enough to switch Salamence in on something, which then Salamence can force out, gaining it a free turn – with very little effort. This free turn can equate to either one free Dragon Dance or one free Roost. Seeing as the most common set is the Dragon Dancer, I'll assume that it is Dragon Dance, therefore, all following statistics assume that the Salamence has 1 Dragon Dance available.


Now, assuming that the Dragon Dance Salamence in question is running 232 Atk / 24 SpA / 252 Spe, Naughty, and has a Life Orb (the most common variation), the following calculations show a little of the damage it is capable of to the metagame:


(note: all calculations assume given defensive Pokemon has 252/252 in HP and the applicable defense, and a nature that boosts the applicable defense)

Code:
Pokémon Attack Min% Max%
Flygon Outrage 164.4998 193.5292 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Latias Outrage 152.8599 179.8352 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Salamence Outrage 151.9744 178.7934 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Kingdra Outrage 151.8127 178.6032 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Smeargle Outrage 145.3519 171.0022 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Dragonite Outrage 139.2272 163.7967 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Ninjask Outrage 125.3551 147.4766 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Roserade Outrage 114.1991 134.3519 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Gengar Outrage 109.0476 128.2912 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Jolteon Outrage 105.7827 124.4502 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Weavile Outrage 98.2775 115.6206 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Electivire Outrage 93.8823 110.4498 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Aerodactyl Outrage 92.8776 109.2678 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Tentacruel Outrage 92.8776 109.2678 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Breloom Outrage 92.4042 108.7108 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Azelf Outrage 91.5551 107.7119 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Blissey Outrage 90.3929 106.3445 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Infernape Outrage 90.2948 106.2292 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Starmie Outrage 89.0139 104.7222 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Porygon-Z Outrage 86.6591 101.9519 (Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Heracross Outrage 85.5091 100.5989 (Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Rotom-A Outrage 81.7055 96.1241 (Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Gyarados Outrage 76.5707 90.0832 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Vaporeon Outrage 76.1453 89.5827 (Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Zapdos Outrage 75.1055 88.3594 (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rocks)
Togekiss Outrage 71.8472 84.5261 (Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rocks)

That's 26 Pokemon which under common battle conditions and Salamence having been given a free turn of set-up which can be OHKO'd, and this assuming that they're running incredibly defensive sets, which many, such as Porygon-Z and Heracross, will not run anyway. Salamence, with little effort, can sweep the majority of the Pokemon in the metagame with a single move. When you take the other two attacking moves in his most common set, Fire Blast and Earthquake, into account, you get these added OHKOs:

Code:
Forretress Fire Blast 117.4091 138.1284 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Scizor Fire Blast 102.5687 120.6691 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Magnezone Earthquake 153.1258 180.148 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Heatran Earthquake 144.2256 169.6772 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Lucario Earthquake 104.8663 123.3721 (Guaranteed OHKO)
Empoleon Earthquake 84.4556 99.3595 (Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rocks)

That's a further six Pokemon, making 32 OU Pokemon a single Salamence set is capable of OHKOing with little effort – that's 68% of the OU metagame! Never mind the majority of the metagame, that's the super majority of the metagame. Once you've done this, you then have to remember that those statistics are just from one set – part of Salamence's terrifying offensive qualities is that he is incredibly diverse and can hit from both sides of the spectrum. Between the Choice Band set, the Dragon Dance set, and the Choice Specs set, there isn't a single Pokemon that can survive two hits, or survive one hit and out speed in order to OHKO (with the exception of ScarfCune and ScarfCress with Ice Beam, both of which can be considered negligible in terms of usage). So, Salamence is definitely one of those Pokemon who has no counter that is not overspecialising in order to defeat him. This means that he has to be handled entirely via checks – Pokemon which can outspeed and OHKO. After one Dragon Dance, the only Pokemon in OU capable of outspeeding Salamence and OHKOing (which in this situation means 75% damage because of Stealth Rocks) with moves that are useful for things outside of Salamence (indicating they do not have to overspecialise in order to check Salamence) are Choice Scarf Latias (Draco Meteor), Choice Scarf Gengar (HP Ice), Choice Scarf Starmie (Ice Beam), Weavile (Ice Shard or Choice Scarf Ice Punch), Choice Scarf Jolteon (HP Ice), Choice Scarf Aerodactyl (Stone Edge), Scizor (Bullet Punch), Metagross (Bullet Punch), Lucario (Extremespeed), Dragonite (Extremespeed) or Mamoswine (Ice Shard). If your team does not have one of those Pokemon, or one of ScarfCune or ScarfCress, your team has a weakness to at least one Salamence set. Even then, some of those sets are ridiculously overspecialised. Seeing as I think that teams without those Pokemon represents a rather significant portion of the metagame, then I think I've proven that Salamence fills all of the conditions necessary for an Offensive Uber Characteristic. Salamence, in common battles conditions, is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.


Now that I've (hopefully) established that Salamence is Uber, I'd like to discuss the effect removing Salamence would have on the current OU metagame. I'd like to note that from this point on, everything is Theorymon, so feel free to ignore it, however, I agree with Tangerine in that we can't just state facts like I've done above, we also need to state what the effects of those facts are. So, what would removing Salamence do to the metagame?


Salamence is the metagame's best physical sweeper and best mixed sweeper, facing very little contest in both departments. Should Salamence be removed, other physical sweepers and mixed sweepers would likely become more popular – I think both Infernape and Lucario would be the most visible beneficiaries on the mixed side, and I think most physical sweepers would increase, especially those based around stat raising such as DDTar and DDDos. Possibly, this would allow certain Pokemon near the OU cut-off to rise – I could see Rhyperior usage receiving the slight increase needed to return it to OU.


Latias, Flygon, Dragonite and Kindra usage would rise. As the four remaining decent Dragon types, they would now have to fill the hit-anything-not-part -Steel-type-like-a-truck shaped hole that Salamence had left. Dragonite, Kingdra and Flygon would probably rise more, as they focus on the physical side, whereas Latias was arguably already a better special Dragon sweeper than Salamence, and would have less of a hole to fill. This could have a knock-on effect – increasing Kingdra numbers could lead to increasing the number of Rain Dance teams, which could boost all sorts of Water types, including some very close to the OU boundary such as Ludicolo. Focusing on Dragonite and Flygon briefly, they'd almost certainly see a sharp rise – they share the exact same synergy with the Steel types that Salamence had, meaning they'd very likely become more frequent partners for them, increasing their usage.


On that note, Salamence's former partners may see a slight decrease. Jirachi certainly owes a lot of its usage to Salamence, and I can see Jirachi usage dropping quite a lot, although less so for Metagross and Lucario, who already have great uses. Magnezone usage would probably drop quite severely – not only did it lose a great partner, but Steel type usage as a whole may dip slightly due to the removal of a major Dragon type, on which they had the defensive monopoly. With decreased Steel numbers, Magnezone is much less useful. Scizor, one of Magnezone's best targets, would probably see the largest drop of all, as one of Scizor's best uses is for picking off weakened Salamence with the strongest priority move in OU.


With the reduction in Steel types, walls may become in general slightly more varied, and certain non-Steel walls could rise in prominence – Swampert would begin to dominate even more than it does now. Some walls close to the OU cut-off, such as Clefable, Milotic, and Umbreon, may receive the rise in usage necessary to make OU, although I doubt Milotic will due to the current over saturation of bulky water types in OU. The biggest losers will probably be Mamoswine and Porygon2, because I would estimate that the majority of their usage comes from acting as checks to Salamence. Porygon2 would almost certainly be denied his place in OU, and Mamoswine usage could dip, although he'd still have many other useful purposes.


All in all, I think that removing Salamence would lead to a more balanced metagame, that is less centralized around powerful Steel type walls, and lead to at least a few more Pokemon making the OU cut-off, adding to diversity as well.

Thanks for reading. =]
 
I'd argue that they can if they switch in on either Dragon Dance or any of its attacks prior to Dragon Dance.

EDIT in return for you quicker edit: Yes, I understand that it doesn't magically get +1. It has to have a turn to set up and use Dragon Dance. If they do actually switch in on Dragon Dance, though, they have to have enough HP to take a hit from Outrage, which is a lot of HP they may not have late game.

Note they said they make good Salamence counters, not a specific threat, even though I only addressed with one set.

These are other calculations showing how Mixmence fights them. Just in case.
New MixMence Draco Meteor vs Crocune: 341 Atk vs 266 Def & 404 HP (140 Base Power): 250 - 295 (61.88% - 73.02%)

New MixMence Draco Meteor vs Standard Vaporeon: 341 Atk vs 226 Def & 448 HP (140 Base Power): 295 - 348 (65.85% - 77.68%)

New MixMence Draco Meteor vs MixPert: 341 Atk vs 216 Def & 404 HP (140 Base Power): 309 - 364 (76.49% - 90.10%)

Swampert can be followed up with Earthquake for a KO.

Vaporeon takes 83% on average. Earthquake can KO.

Suicune takes 79% Average. Earthquake can KO
 
People need to start deriving their opinions from experience a little more than what I believe we are currently seeing, rather than playing paper Pokemon.

Salamence has like what, three decent sets? Five at best? Scarf, Band and Specs Salamence, Mixed Mence, and DD Mence.

When constructing a team, do you go out of your way so that you can cover all of these sets at any particular moment? No. You construct a team with synergy that does not have a achilles heel to Salamence. Pokemon is not played 1v1, it is 6v6. A full team pitted against each of the opponents.

The first step in determining how to beat a Salamence is determining its item and set. There are a few ways to go about doing this:

A) Residual damage from Stealth Rock, Sandstream, Hail, or damage given from status or attack damage being dealt will reveal whether or not Salamence is carrying Leftovers. From there, we can deduce this:

Yes: Salamence is likely either using a bulky Dragon Dance set, or rare defensive set utilizing Roost.

No: Salamence is potentially either carrying Life Orb/Expert Belt, or one of the three Choiced items.

B) Once Dragon Dance is used, it can be automatically assumed that a Choiced Item is not being held. From there, determining whether it holds Life Orb or Leftovers is the next step. If Salamence received residual damage either during the switch to come in, during the Dragon Dance, or if it receives damage by status or attacks, we will be abel to verify whether it is carrying Leftovers, or Life Orb.

C) Speed is clearly a factor in determining a choiced user, albeit a bit rarer in comparison. It can also be used to determine other sets as well. If a Salamence has either killed a Pokemon without the use of a Dragon Dance, Salamence and another Pokemon are swapped in at the same time, or you happen to swap a Pokemon in safely by other means (baton pass Substitute, U-Turn, swapping in Flying/Levitating Pokemon on Earthquake, Ghost Pokemon on Brick Break, Heatran on Fire Blast/Flamethrower, et cetera), if Salamence outspeed a Pokemon in which you are aware has a minimum of 329 Speed, it can be assumed the Pokemon is Scarfed. Also, if a Pokemon has a speed below 328, but above 299, (Lucario for instance), if outsped, can be assumed that the Salamence is holding Choice Specs or Choice Band, as most Choiced sets (other than Scarf) run maximum Speed to take advantage of being faster while hitting for heavy damage. You run the risk of having Salamence scarfed in this instance as well, however you would have determined they are running a choiced set provided no Life Orb recoil insues upon being outsped, or no Leftovers recovery occurs.

D) Hydro Pump, while quite a good move is almost never used on any set excluding Choice Specs. Draco Meteor is also a good indicator of a Choice Specs set, as well as a mixed set.

E) Damage calculations. You as a player should be aware of how much damage you are capable of inflicting on the most common threats of the current meta. Will your HP Ground KO a standard Heatran, or Magnezone? Will your Focus Blast KO Tyranitar? Will Explosion kill a standard Blissey? So on and so forth. But it is also your responsibility as a player to determine how much damage you will take from incoming threats.

Take some calculations!! If you know your wall takes 44%-49% damage from a standard Fire Blast, but takes 59%-67% damage from a Choice Specs, then you are able to use this knowledge as a tool to determine the item of the Salamence being used. Inform yourselves on common battle conditions. If Salamence is such a threat, all the more reason to do so!

F) Your opponents actions also play a part in this. I will roleplay a common battle scenario in which to example this:

Roserade @ Focus Sash
Timid
6 HP/252 Special Attack/252 Speed
Leaf Storm
HP Ice
Toxic Spikes
Sleep Powder

Battle Scenario said:
Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Soul Dew Clause
Ulevo sent out Roserade (lvl 100 Roserade).
Player2 sent out Jirachi (lvl 100 Jirachi).

Player2 switched in Starmie.
Roserade used Sleep Powder.
Starmie fell asleep!
Starmie is fast asleep!

Player2 switched in Heatran.
Roserade used Leaf Storm.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 10% of it's health.
Roserade's Special Attack was harshly lowered.

Ulevo sent out Blissey (lvl 100 Blissey)
Heatran used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!

Heatran used Explosion.
A critical hit!
Blissey lost 100% of it's health.
Blissey fainted.
Heatran fainted.

Ulevo sent out Roserade (lvl 100 Roserade).
Player2 sent out Salamence (lvl 100 Salamence).
Pointed stones dug into Roserade.
Roserade lost 6% of it's health.
Salamence's Intimidate cut Roserade's Attack!

Now here is where we have our scenario case. One of two actions will happen. Player2 will either decide to switch out, or remain in and use a move. Depending on what Player2 decides to do within these circumstances will help to determine what set Salamence is using.

Roserade's max Speed is 306, which is frequently used as a lead sleeper. We know Salamence's max Speed is 328, however it caps at 299 on a neutral nature. Roserade also have the possibility of utilizing HP Ice instead of HP Fire and HP Ground, and have been known to in my experience.

From the perspective of the Salamence user, should he be running a set of max speed (or speed higher than 306), he would be capable of doing a minimum of 88% damage to Roserade with Fire Blast with Life Orb, likely resulting in a 1HKO after SR damage. However, the flip side to this is that should the Salamence be utilizing speed lower than 306, it is in danger of being put to Sleep or being struck by HP Ice. Sleeping an incoming threat would also provide time to set up Toxic Spikes.

Should the Salamence attack, even if Roserade is swapped out and thus a speed priority between the two cannot be determined, it confirms that the Salamence is likely running at max Speed, and is more than likely utilizing either Life Orb or a Choice Band/Specs. Once an attack connects, you will be able to confirm which one based on the whether Salamence receives recoil damage from Life Orb. If the Salamence switches out, it more than likely means that the Salamence is using a bulkier build, or a Dragon Dance set.

Taking note of your opponents actions in battle is key to discovering how each individual Pokemon operates both as a team player, but as a stand alone, and this is especially important to note with versatile threats like Salamence, as I just displayed.

Once you discover the set and strategy to Salamence, you can begin to use your team (as opposed to singular "checks" and "counters") to wear it down. Choiced versions of Salamence are the easiest to deal with as they are bound by a singular move. This will make it easier to both wall and set up on Salamence, while forcing switches for residual damage. Also keep in mind there are a multitude of Pokemon that have immunities to the moves in Salamence's movepool, making switches on Choiced Salamence easier. Levitate/Flying for Earthquake, Ghosts for Brickbreak, Heatran for Fire Blast, Vaporeon for Hydro Pump, to name a select few.

Dragon Dance sets can be taken down by status effects very efficiently. WoW prevents Salamence from sweeping, as does Thunder Wave, and allows for easy revenge kills. Toxic will slowly wear Salamence down over time, and walls utilizing recovery moves like Roost and Recover, or Wish and Protect can wear it down over time, particularly if Sandstorm is also (and often is) present.

Life Orb sets do the most immediate damage, but if faced with a proper team, are also the least likely to sweep the team due to the heavy damage Salamece takes. Salamence is more prone to Special Attacks due to Naive and Naughty often being the choice of nature for mixed sets, Life Orb recoil adds up quickly, and has entry hazards to consider as well. This puts Salamence in an easy position for retaliation against priorty moves like Bullet Punch from Scizor and Metagross, or Extreme Speed from Lucario, or Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Weavile.

Another problem with Life Orb Salamence is that because it requires appropriate prediciton to utilize correctly, switching between walls to take advantage of Life Orb damage can often put Salamence in easy KO range. Salamence loses it's options if it gets tricked a choice item, which many Pokemon that can switch in to Salamence have the option of using, including Metagross, Latias, Gengar, Jirachi and friends.

A personal favourite method I like to use when dealing with Salamence is to use faster threats combined with set up to create an immediate threat upon switch. Because Salamence has 4x weakness to Ice, as well as weakness to Dragon and Rock, it is very easy to threaten a switch out with Pokemon like Latias, HP Ice Gengar, and Starmie. Set up a Sub or Screens on switch, and use their versatile move pool, high Speed and high Special Attack to punish your opponents switch. Often with Latias this can mean a Calm Mind sweep. Gengar has the option of using Memento for similar purposes, and Starmie is a fantastic twin screen Pogey.

People often recite the idea that trying to "counter" the metagame isn't reasonable, because there are too many threats to consider for one team to do it all, and instead, a team based on synergy and specific themes are encouraged instead. Individual Pokemon that are both versatile and powerful are absolutely no different, and Salamence is not an exception.

Salamence is not Garchomp. You can actually stop Salamence. Lawl.

My ¢2.
 
It's a ridiculous nitpick, but Salamence actually does have two non-Uber counters - ScarfCune with Ice Beam and ScarfCress with Ice Beam. I know they're so overspecialised it doesn't really count (although pre-Garchomp ban I had a ScarfCune and it worked wonders in general, being fast and bulky while still being able to hit with moderate force is beautiful), but they do exist.
Actually it DOES count. In particular, give Cresselia Trick and two other moves, and it should be alright beyond countering Salamence - just be careful not to dump your Scarf before you've either eliminated Mence or decided the opponent doesn't have one. (OK, I admit this is Theorymon, but I'm sure Cress can lose a move from most of its sets to accommodate Trick without rendering it utterly useless.)

+1 (Naive) Outrage vs Crocune: 546 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 255 - 300 (63.12% - 74.26%)

+1 (Naive) Outrage vs Standard Vaporeon: 546 Atk vs 240 Def & 448 HP (120 Base Power): 382 - 450 (85.27% - 100.45%)

+1 (Naive) Outrage vs MixPert: 546 Atk vs 306 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 298 - 352 (73.76% - 87.13%)

It takes Stealth Rock + ~12% extra damage to OHKO all of those Pokemon with Outrage. They might be able to counter MixMence (although I'm sure DM + Outrage does a lot), but they can't stop Dragon Dance Salamence.
12% extra damage is 12% extra damage. Where is the Salamence user going to get that? Sandstorm's one way, but Mence himself doesn't like it. Previous damage won't work if the person using the Salamence counter is careful enough to not bring it out before then. Whirlwind it in, maybe. Wait until late game - well lots of things can sweep late game when opponents are weakened.

Latias, Flygon, and Kindra usage would rise. As the three remaining decent Dragon types
What's not decent about Dragonite?
 
+1 (Naive) Outrage vs Crocune: 546 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 255 - 300 (63.12% - 74.26%)

+1 (Naive) Outrage vs Standard Vaporeon: 546 Atk vs 240 Def & 448 HP (120 Base Power): 382 - 450 (85.27% - 100.45%)

+1 (Naive) Outrage vs MixPert: 546 Atk vs 306 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 298 - 352 (73.76% - 87.13%)

It takes Stealth Rock + ~12% extra damage to OHKO all of those Pokemon with Outrage. They might be able to counter MixMence (although I'm sure DM + Outrage does a lot), but they can't stop Dragon Dance Salamence.

Okay, but DDmence needs a turn to set up. Assuming you're smart enough to switch to the counter Pokemon while he sets up, You can still KO him before he takes you out, especially if you switch to a scarf Pokemon. Also, what system did you use for those damage calcs?
 
Mister Anbu said:
Life Orb Salamence is wrecked by the most commonly used Pokemon in the metagame. Salamence is fragile, sports a stealth rock weakness, and is destroyed by thunder wave. Outrage is "please come in, steel types."

Actually, Outrage is not in any way an invitation for steel types to come in, in fact, iirc, an Adamant (Maybe even Jolly) +1 LO Outrage is a 2HKO on everything in the Metagame, and the things that MIGHT not be 2HKO'd (AKA Skarmory and Forry with substantial Def EV investment) can't do anything back.
 
Actually, Outrage is not in any way an invitation for steel types to come in, in fact, iirc, an Adamant (Maybe even Jolly) +1 LO Outrage is a 2HKO on everything in the Metagame, and the things that MIGHT not be 2HKO'd (AKA Skarmory and Forry with substantial Def EV investment) can't do anything back.

When mence is locked into Outrage Skarm can nail it with Brave Bird (does a hefty amount), Roost off hits, let LO wear you down and set up SR/Spikes and grab a coffee and go to taco bell, same with Forry and Gyro Ball - Roost and less effectively. Skarm can also shuffle said spikes/sr around your team and make it so you take yet MORE SR damage each time you come back in.
 
12% extra damage is 12% extra damage. Where is the Salamence user going to get that? Sandstorm's one way, but Mence himself doesn't like it. Previous damage won't work if the person using the Salamence counter is careful enough to not bring it out before then. Whirlwind it in, maybe. Wait until late game - well lots of things can sweep late game when opponents are weakened.

That's what I was getting at. Salamence generally sweeps later in the game when you've taken SR twice, or taken a bit of damage. I'm saying 12% isn't a large amount that takes a lot of work to do. Also, previous damage should almost be a common battle condition. You probably won't know he has Mence if he is saving it to sweep, and you don't bring a single Pokemon to only counter Salamence. You have to play very well to have full health/large amount of health Pokemon mid-late game.

Okay, but DDmence needs a turn to set up. Assuming you're smart enough to switch to the counter Pokemon while he sets up, You can still KO him before he takes you out, especially if you switch to a scarf Pokemon. Also, what system did you use for those damage calcs?

Okay. Let me run through this scenario.

Salamence switches in on Pokemon it forces out.
Salamence uses DD, you switch to your counter.
Salamence is now at +1 and can deal those amounts of damage to some of the Bulkiest Pokemon.

To KO him before he takes you out after he DDs, you have to be faster than a +1 Mence, so generally you're going to need to have enough HP to take a hit. If Salamence comes in late game you probably don't have enough to take a +1 Outrage. It could still even be a MixMence and you could be 2HKOd still, as I showed in my last post. And if you switch to a scarf Pokemon, you have to base 100 + or higher (as most run Naive) which is not a lot of Pokemon. 48 Pokemon non-Uber, 15 OU.

Libelldra is the calculator I used, by the way.
 
Salamence as a Pokemon is no doubt an insane force; however, once the moveset is revealed, it is easily dealt with. The main reason I think that many people are nominating Salamence for a test is because of the initial turn that it is out. Salamence's tendancy to run a Dragon Dance set is actually less threatening that many other sets that can be used. For instance, on the initial turn that Salamence is out...

Lets say that your opponent is using Salamence, and you are using a Swampert. Your moveset is Earthquake, Stealth Rock, Surf, and Roar, your EV spread is 252 Hp / 4 Atk / 252 Def, and you are running a Relaxed nature (your item is Lefties). You don't know the opponent's moveset. Well, it may seem smart to keep Swampert in against Mence, but you don't know Mence's moveset yet; it could just be a Dragon Dancer, in which case it can do little to harm you and you could Roar it out. However, it could just as easily be a MixMence that is capable of OHKOing you with Draco Meteor. You decide to switch out to be safe, and go to your Jirachi. Salamence uses Dragon Dance. On the next turn, Salamence uses Earthquake and KOes Jirachi, then proceeds to run through your team. The only real reason that Salamence can so easily get up a Dragon Dance in this situation is thanks to its tendancy to run many sets; MixMence vs Dragon Dance. Which one? Salamence is handled relatively easily once the set is discovered, but nothing can really switch in on a MixMence, BandMence, or SpecsMence.

Salamence is like a great many Pokemon in OU in that it is more dangerous in theory than in practice; while a MixMence is going to almost definitely take out one Pokemon, it usually wont take out more. And while a Dragon Dance Salamence will more often than not do significant damage to your team, its only dangerous if it secures said Dragon Dance. And what's to say that it gets the boost? Between Stealth Rock, Life Orb recoil, switchin damage, Sandstorm, what have-you....Salamence won't be able to kill as much as it would like. It doesn't exactly help that it is easily picked off by relatively common priority moves. MixMence is handled by any hard-hitter that is faster, such as Gengar, and DD Mence is handled by any user of Ice Shard, as well as CB Scizor and to an extent, Choice Scarf Latias.

So I challenge the Salamence for a Test crowd to answer this question: What exactly sets Salamence apart from other dangerous sweepers? Why does it deserve a test over, say, Swords Dance Lucario or Dragon Dance Tyranitar? What makes it different?
 
What exactly sets Salamence apart from other dangerous sweepers? Why does it deserve a test over, say, Swords Dance Lucario or Dragon Dance Tyranitar? What makes it different?

It's faster and more powerful than Luke, Tyranitar, and just about everything else that's not already Uber. Add to that the fact that it gets STAB on the type with the best neutral coverage, and that Draco Meteor is immensely powerful.

It's a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one. Salamence is just more powerful than most (if not all) other set-up sweepers, and more powerful than most (if not all) other mixed sweepers.
 
Salamence can be checked by so many things however. While Pokemon such as Swords Dance Lucario require certain Pokemon to counter it (Gliscor, Scarf Rotom-A, ScarfTran)...Pokemon like Salamence have specific counters as well as Pokemon that just flat out fare well against it. Bronzong can easily wall any Salamence lacking Fire Blast; even Mence with Fire Blast are OHKOed after a Dragon Dance by Gyro Ball, while Bronzong won't EVER be OHKOed by a Mence's Fire Blast (not even SpecsMence). Porygon2 is another one of those "stone-solid" Mence counters, seeing as Trace and Ice Beam destroys any Salamence set. Salamence also has trouble with priority in general. Life Orb and Choice Band Mamoswine / Weavile with Ice Shard are literally 110% checks to every Salamence set. They can't switch in, but Ice Shard OHKOes with killer priority the next turn. Scizor is in a similar boat, albeit not being able to OHKO Salamence with Bullet Punch. Any Mence that gets below 45% health is in danger of a KO from BP however (not what one would call uncommon due to Life Orb recoil and SR and everything I said in my previous post). Plus Once Mence locks itself into Outrage or is hit with the -2 Special Attack drop from Draco Meteor, it becomes set up fodder for a whole host of dangerous Pokemon, including but not limited to Swords Dance Scizor and Agility Metagross.

I'm not saying that I'm entirely against giving Mence a Suspect Test; I'm not ready to remove him from the ladder, however. Salamence doesn't fulfill the portrait of an Uber in any way; outclassed by Raquaza in every stat barring Speed (and even then Mence is only up by 10 base points), it would be like if we suddenly decided to bring Chansey up to OU, ban her from UU, and have her share a tier with her better sister Blissey. Well...that may be exaggerating a bit, but hopefully you see my point. Salamence doesn't even possess that much of a utility in Ubers compared to other OU brethren such as Blissey and Foretress. Even Kingdra makes a better Ubers Dragon. I haven't played Ubers in a while, but when I played against a Salamence user, all I needed was my Scarf Palkia. With Scarfers as well as Scizor becoming all the more common in Ubers (at least from what I can tell with the usage stats), Salamence belongs there no more than Latias. Hell, I would be more willing to give Scizor a suspect test before Salamence, if only because of usage stats; neither Pokemon fulfill the "Portrait of an Uber".

EDIT: @PokeN3rd Pwnz0r: While it true that Salamence has no safe switchin (I believe I mentioned this), the fact that it has so many more "hard counters" and is rather frail can't be ignored. The only risk that Salamence ever applies to the opponent is the first turn out, when the moveset is unknown. After that its a slice of cream pie. One of the main reasons I run life orb Mamo in todays metagame is for countering all forms of Salamence. Garchomp was so different than Salamence, as for Chomp could actually take an Ice Shard or two; plus it had a tendancy to run Yache Berry. Salamence is taken down by a +100 base speed Scarfer, or Ice Shard, or Bullet Punch, or even Luke's Extremespeed at a certain point. I wasn't directly comparing Mence to Lucario and Tyranitar, they were just the first two sweepers that came to mind.

EDIT2: Yes those Calcs are good, let me just sum up what I'm saying. Life Orb recoil plus all other residual damage (Sandstorm, Hail, Stealth Rock, you name it) wears down Salamence quick, and the advent of priority + Salamence's less than stellar defenses mean it won't stay around for as long as it would like to.
 
So I challenge the Salamence for a Test crowd to answer this question: What exactly sets Salamence apart from other dangerous sweepers? Why does it deserve a test over, say, Swords Dance Lucario or Dragon Dance Tyranitar? What makes it different?

How can you even compare Lucario to Salamence lol. Lucario can be dealt with through Gyarados, Gliscor, Hippowdon, etc.

Bronzong, Donphan, Hippo, Swampert, Machamp all can deal with Tyranitar.

I don't see where you're going with this. You've listed how potent Salamence can be and yet you compare it to the likes of these sweepers? When was the last time you had a safe switch in on Salamence? You don't. Vs Tyranitar? You've got those counters. Hippo and Donphan aren't even threatened. Gliscor, Bronzong, Swampert can handle CB, Bronzong even being able to take on DD.

It's the same with other sweepers. They've all got switch-ins that can counter them. You build a team and you go "Can I take on Lucario? Oh yeah, I have Gyarados for that," or "Can I take on Tyranitar? Oh yeah I've got Hippowdon for that," or "Can I take on Infernape? Oh yeah I've got Latias for that," etc. Salamence, as you mentioned yourself, has no safe switch-in. You don't know what it's running, you can only guess. If you make a mistake and let it set up, it could mean good game. If you make a mistake thinking it's going to set up, it's good game.

Comparing it to other sweepers is pointless, as they aren't close to the same as Salamence. Salamence can run with a 140 BP STAB Special move and 120 BP STAB Physical move, meaning you're never going to have a "correct" switch-in. You'll always be playing the guessing game with it, as apposed to knowing it's going to set up or it's going to attack like you might with other Pokemon. That's what sets it apart. It doesn't make it deserve a test, but it sets it far more apart than you seem to think it does.

EDIT:

396 Atk vs 317 Def & 338 HP (120 Base Power): 280 - 330 (82.84% - 97.63%)

New MixMence Fire Blast vs Standard Wall Bronzong

Porygon2 is beaten by MixMence and SpecsMence.

You just admitted that Salamence needs to be revenge killed as well.

198 Atk vs 196 Def & 343 HP (120 Base Power): 452 - 532 (131.78% - 155.10%)

New MixMence Fire Blast vs Scizor at -2

Seriously? I'm not saying these calcs prove anything about Mence, really just that your points aren't making sense and are falling through.


EDIT: @PokeN3rd Pwnz0r: While it true that Salamence has no safe switchin (I believe I mentioned this), the fact that it has so many more "hard counters" and is rather frail can't be ignored. The only risk that Salamence ever applies to the opponent is the first turn out, when the moveset is unknown. After that its a slice of cream pie. One of the main reasons I run life orb Mamo in todays metagame is for countering all forms of Salamence. Garchomp was so different than Salamence, as for Chomp could actually take an Ice Shard or two; plus it had a tendancy to run Yache Berry. Salamence is taken down by a +100 base speed Scarfer, or Ice Shard, or Bullet Punch, or even Luke's Extremespeed at a certain point. I wasn't directly comparing Mence to Lucario and Tyranitar, they were just the first two sweepers that came to mind.

Hard Counters? You mean those things called revenge killers you keep mentioning? You continually are saying it must be revenge killed. To me, that means you have to run a certain Pokemon in order to deal with a threat, which takes away from helping your team. You run a LO Mamo just to counter Salamence? Is it helping the rest of your team or is it a dead weight Pokemon being used merely to revenge kill a Pokemon the rest of your team can't handle? That's crazy.

Edit again (we should really just start posting at this point lol): Priority isn't on every team, and it's defenses don't mean anything unless it's against priority. If Priority is the only answer to Mence it means we're forced to run priority on our teams to deal with it. I don't personally give up a moveslot just so I can deal with Mence and lose coverage/ability to sweep/ability to help my team. When you're forced to run something on your team to deal with a threat, it's too much.
 
Hey guess what man I'm posting! :O

Mamo isn't really just dead weight on my team. Lots of players aren't ready for his STAB moves and he is useful for much more than just wrecking Salamence and to a lesser extent, Flygon. And you aren't really "giving up a moveslot" per se for priority; priority in general is extremely useful and I try to fit it in on all of my teams at least once. But yeah this isn't a discussion about how sweet priority and scarfers are.
 
Okay, but when going to build a team, incorporating a scarf user or priority user may not be what's best for the team. This means you don't have those options to deal with Salamence consistently. Consistency is key to defining sweepers in OU. We can deal with every threat consistently, but not Salamence or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Salamence takes prediction, switching, and synergy to deal with; it does not take just one counter Pokemon. That is why Salamence at least deserves a test (note I don't say ban), so that we can see and possibly define the line that is between OU and Uber.



Real quick thing here guys, is that in most of the theorymon in this thread (mine as well I believe), prediction is being assumed as perfect. Steel types won't always switch in on Outrage, they may meet another move. Players won't always know what to do, etc.. Use experience when theorymoning, or at least consider prior experience with your theorymon.
 
Actually, Outrage is not in any way an invitation for steel types to come in, in fact, iirc, an Adamant (Maybe even Jolly) +1 LO Outrage is a 2HKO on everything in the Metagame, and the things that MIGHT not be 2HKO'd (AKA Skarmory and Forry with substantial Def EV investment) can't do anything back.

A +1, sure. Salamence doesn't exactly have a ton of room to come in and set up easily because of it's frailty. Assuming the steel swaps into the outrage, instead of coming in after the first one.

Scizor, any magnezone, metagross, lucario, empoleon, jirachi and select heatran sets come in after the first outrage and kill it.

Skarmory can WW. Forretress and Bronzong can explode. Is this a bit drastic? Sure, but you're giving a scenario where the player lets Salamence come in and set up.
 
Bronzong can easily wall any Salamence lacking Fire Blast; even Mence with Fire Blast are OHKOed after a Dragon Dance by Gyro Ball, while Bronzong won't EVER be OHKOed by a Mence's Fire Blast (not even SpecsMence).
How many Salamence don't carry Fire Blast? It's on all the standard sets. And Bronzong is slower, so you better hope it doesn't switch-in on the Fire Blast. (Having already shown your opponent your Heatran would be one way to deter Mence from Fire Blasting).

Porygon2 is another one of those "stone-solid" Mence counters, seeing as Trace and Ice Beam destroys any Salamence set. Salamence also has trouble with priority in general.
Salamence uses Draco Meteor. Porygon2 is in trouble.
Life Orb and Choice Band Mamoswine / Weavile with Ice Shard are literally 110% checks to every Salamence set. They can't switch in, but Ice Shard OHKOes with killer priority the next turn. Scizor is in a similar boat, albeit not being able to OHKO Salamence with Bullet Punch. Any Mence that gets below 45% health is in danger of a KO from BP however (not what one would call uncommon due to Life Orb recoil and SR and everything I said in my previous post).
Unless Salamence has Outraged, it just switches out.
Plus Once Mence locks itself into Outrage or is hit with the -2 Special Attack drop from Draco Meteor, it becomes set up fodder for a whole host of dangerous Pokemon, including but not limited to Swords Dance Scizor and Agility Metagross.
After a Draco Meteor, can Agiligross still manage to set up while Salamence sends Earthquakes at it?

outclassed by Raquaza in every stat barring Speed (and even then Mence is only up by 10 base points),...Salamence doesn't even possess that much of a utility in Ubers compared to other OU brethren such as Blissey and Foretress.
So what? Deoxys' normal Forme is outclassed by its Attack Forme. How a Pokemon would perform in Ubers has no bearing on whether or not it's allowed in OU. Similarly, the presence of the BL tier is due to Pokemon considered too powerful for UU despite not being very useful in OU.

PLENTY of things can revenge kill Salamence. Personally I like Scarfgar. If Salamence has Outraged, I bring in Scarfgar and it's bye bye Mence. However, if it HASN'T Outraged, Salamence runs away, having got itself a kill.
So if you can tempt it to Outrage, you can essentially draw with it. Is there anything that withstands all Mence's common attacks except Outrage, and can threaten back? (Serious question, I'm not sure).
 
I'll just address some things here:

How many Salamence don't carry Fire Blast? It's on all the standard sets. And Bronzong is slower, so you better hope it doesn't switch-in on the Fire Blast. (Having already shown your opponent your Heatran would be one way to deter Mence from Fire Blasting).

As PokeN3rd Pwnz0r said, we're assuming that this theorymon is perfect prediction; meaning Bronzong would be switching in on an Outrage or a Draco Meteor. Maybe an Earthquake.

Salamence uses Draco Meteor. Porygon2 is in trouble.

True, but one would usually only be using a Porygon2 to counter DD Mence...but it is more than capable of countering MixMence as well. Anyway, a Porygon2 at 87% (itt one after Stealth Rock damage) survives standard MixMence's Draco Meteor if memory serves.

Unless Salamence has Outraged, it just switches out.

Yes, but that is still esentially neutralizing the threat of Salamence, especially if it had used Dragon Dance; making it lose all of those boosts is almost as much of a victory as KOing it.

After a Draco Meteor, can Agiligross still manage to set up while Salamence sends Earthquakes at it?

Aside from the fact that not all Mence's carry EQ, an AgilityGross takes about 70% to 80% (I suck at calcs so these could be wrong) from EQ, then OHKOes with Meteor Mash and proceeds to wreck the team / fuck things up with Explosion. Mind you this is a total guestimation sort of scenario as far as Pokemon used and moves they use; this is all theorymon.

So what? Deoxys' normal Forme is outclassed by its Attack Forme. How a Pokemon would perform in Ubers has no bearing on whether or not it's allowed in OU. Similarly, the presence of the BL tier is due to Pokemon considered too powerful for UU despite not being very useful in OU.

Yes and I'm saying that Salamence fulfills none of the portrait of an Uber criteria. Hence it should stay in OU. I'm just using Ray as a "god forbid Mence leave OU" situation

PLENTY of things can revenge kill Salamence. Personally I like Scarfgar. If Salamence has Outraged, I bring in Scarfgar and it's bye bye Mence. However, if it HASN'T Outraged, Salamence runs away, having got itself a kill.
So if you can tempt it to Outrage, you can essentially draw with it. Is there anything that withstands all Mence's common attacks except Outrage, and can threaten back? (Serious question, I'm not sure).

Yeppers, thats my exact point! Loads of shit revenges Mence. As for the question, your closest thing to a full mence counter is a Porygon2 or Mespirit, but they cannot have taken any prior damage. Latias fares excellently against MixMence, switching in on Fire Blast / Earthquake, then outspeeding and OHKOing.
 
I'm going to post some calculations, not to make any particular point, but because everyone seems to be throwing around arguments based on assumed damage rates and it's skewing the direction of the discussion. It would be nice to be informed. I'm just doing Outrage for now, but I'll likely add Draco Meteor here as well for reference with Life Orb and Specs included.

NOTE: Please keep in mind Leftovers 6% recovery when considering differences between 2-3HKOs.

These calculations assume the following:

Salamence @ Life Orb
252 Attack EVs
Attack+ Nature
Outrage +1



Bronzong
252 HP EVs/252 Defense EVs

Defense+ Nature: 140 - 165 / 41.4% - 48.8%

Neutral Nature: 153 - 180 / 45.3% - 53.3%

Skarmory
252 HP EVs/252 Defense EVs

Defense+ Nature: 123 - 144 / 36.8% - 43.1%

Neutral Nature: 134 - 158 / 40.1% - 47.3%

252 HP EVs

Defense+ Nature: 147 - 173 / 44.0% - 51.8%

Metagross
252 HP EVs

Neutral Nature: 171 - 202 / 47.0% - 55.5%

252 HP EVs/252 Defense EVs

Defense+ Nature: 129 - 153 / 35.4% - 42.0%

Scizor
252 HP EVs

Neutral Nature: 216 - 254 / 62.8% - 73.8%

252 HP EVs/252 Defense EVs

Defense+ Nature: 155 - 183 / 45.1% - 53.2%

Jirachi
252 HP EVs/252 Defense EVs

Defense+ Nature: 155 - 183 / 38.4% - 45.3%

Magnezone
252 HP EVs/252 Defense EVs

Defense+ Nature: 141 - 166 / 41.0% - 48.3%

252 HP EVs

Neutral Nature: 191 - 225 / 55.5% - 65.4%

Forretress
252 HP EVs/252 Defense EVs

Defense+ Nature: 123 - 144 / 34.7% - 40.7%

Neutral Nature: 134 - 158 / 37.9% - 44.6%

252 HP EVs

Defense+ Nature: 147 - 173 / 41.5% - 48.9%

Heatran
252 HP EVs

Neutral Nature: 204 - 241 / 52.8% - 62.4%

If you wish to verify my numbers, refer to Metal Kid's Damage Calculator here: http://www.metalkid.info/Pokemon/Calculators/Damage.aspx
 
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