Roost doesn't actually change the Pokemon's type, though. It just removes the weaknesses and resistances offered by the Flying-type and Levitate ability. So while a pure Flying-type Pokemon using Roost would, in essence, be the ???-type, it is still considered a Flying-type throughout the duration of the turn.
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Pokemon Black & White, aka Gen 5. Coming to Japan in Fall 2010.
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yes but then it is impossible to net a SE hit thus making it unfair.
This is incorrect. When Roosting, the pokemon is actually stripped of its flying-type, which is what removes the resistances and weaknesses associated with it. Levitate is not affected; you'll note that Flygon is still immune to Earthquake when Roosting, but Zapdos can be hit.
Thus, a pure flying-type using Roost would be typeless.
I think you're taking the wrong approach here. If both players get Stealth Rock up, whoever spins get advantage of no longer suffering from SR damage, while the other player continues to deal with it.
No, you're missing the point. Your SR has nothing to do with my SR.
What's more important is to look a it like this: Even if you rapid spin, at some point I could just SR again, and if you wasted another turn spinning, than it's the same thing-- my 1 turn use was better always better than yours.
Like I said, it's exactly the same situation as recovering in the face of 60% hits. You just don't notice it as easily because it's spread out over time.
As of now a lot of people use suicide leads and stealth rock is often gone after it has been removed once-- but the main reason why suicide leads are now as (or more) common than pokemon who can use SR repeatedly is because rapid spin is so rare.
Why is rapid spin so rare? Mostly because it sucks-- for the reasons I have talked about. If you really wanted Rapid Spin, there are plenty of great pokemon who can use it-- but having/using rapid spin at all is unarguably inefficient in this meta, and a potential liability.
What's more important is to look a it like this: Even if you rapid spin, at some point I could just SR again, and if you wasted another turn spinning, than it's the same thing-- my 1 turn use was better always better than yours.
Like I said, it's exactly the same situation as recovering in the face of 60% hits. You just don't notice it as easily because it's spread out over time.
As of now a lot of people use suicide leads and stealth rock is often gone after it has been removed once-- but the main reason why suicide leads are now as (or more) common than pokemon who can use SR repeatedly is because rapid spin is so rare.
Why is rapid spin so rare? Mostly because it sucks-- for the reasons I have talked about. If you really wanted Rapid Spin, there are plenty of great pokemon who can use it-- but having/using rapid spin at all is unarguably inefficient in this meta, and a potential liability.
Yes but there are ways to remedy it without changing the way SR, Spikes and TS work. Example make Rapid Spin hit harder, have STAB or trow the hazards back at the opponent.
They could change the way the moves work. The best would probably be a five TURN duration to lower its effects. That would allow spinning and stalling as options to get rid of it.
They could change the way the moves work. The best would probably be a five TURN duration to lower its effects. That would allow spinning and stalling as options to get rid of it.
The point I was explaining was the inefficiency of Rapid Spin in its current state, which was a basis for discussing alteration of hazard removal methods rather than simply "Tutoring it to everything," which wouldn't really change things in a desirable manner.
Obviously increasing Rapid Spin's damage output and making it a more effective attacking type would make a huge difference.
I still think that a 1 layer removal upon switch ability on a tankish poke would be a nice addition to the meta and add a new dimension to it. As I said before, such an ability would discourage (or alleviate the effects of) simple SR spamming, and might even encourage spike layoring, both of which are in my opinion, desirable.
Obviously increasing Rapid Spin's damage output and making it a more effective attacking type would make a huge difference.
I still think that a 1 layer removal upon switch ability on a tankish poke would be a nice addition to the meta and add a new dimension to it. As I said before, such an ability would discourage (or alleviate the effects of) simple SR spamming, and might even encourage spike layoring, both of which are in my opinion, desirable.
I find this post ironic because during the first CAP project (Syclant), people were having major bitch-fits over the idea of a Pokemon with the ability to remove entry hazards upon switch-ins. The idea was rejected like almost instantly in favor of saving the whales...erh I mean stall.
Your idea seems interesting Chou, but I would personally prefer a system where different entry hazards can be removed through the possession of different abilities. Say if Ice and Electric versions of Stealth Rock were to be introduced (which is the most plausible outcome if anything as they hit Flying types SE), Stealth Rock could be removed with a Solid Rock user, Ice could be removed with Pokemon carrying Magma Armor or Flame Body, and Electric can be removed with Pokemon carrying Volt Absorb or Motor Drive. Also, Magnet Pull could remove Spikes on both sides of the field, but not before the user gets hit by the lot.
I think this would introduce a bit more variation to strategies that utilize or avoid entry hazards. For example, a team with Moltres would be more inclined to pair it up with Rhyperior in order to protect it from the most crippling entry hazard, or Gyarados could be paired up with a Jolteon or Electivire (where have we heard this before?). Another interesting aspect is the fact that, under such a system, almost all hazard-absorbing Pokemon would be weak to Ground, and therefore vulnerable to Dugtrio (or its possible evolution) in particular. This could be a key factor for hazard stackers, and would prevent people from filling teams with absorbers of all kinds of hazards, lest they wish that their team have a crippling common weakness.
As an aside about possible extra Stealth moves, I wouldn’t mind if they could be stacked in battle as long as they have only half their current effectiveness, i.e. 6.25% base damage. In a similar fashion, Spikes should be nerfed to deal 6.25% / 12.5% / 25% damage for the respective layers.
I think this would introduce a bit more variation to strategies that utilize or avoid entry hazards. For example, a team with Moltres would be more inclined to pair it up with Rhyperior in order to protect it from the most crippling entry hazard, or Gyarados could be paired up with a Jolteon or Electivire (where have we heard this before?). Another interesting aspect is the fact that, under such a system, almost all hazard-absorbing Pokemon would be weak to Ground, and therefore vulnerable to Dugtrio (or its possible evolution) in particular. This could be a key factor for hazard stackers, and would prevent people from filling teams with absorbers of all kinds of hazards, lest they wish that their team have a crippling common weakness.
As an aside about possible extra Stealth moves, I wouldn’t mind if they could be stacked in battle as long as they have only half their current effectiveness, i.e. 6.25% base damage. In a similar fashion, Spikes should be nerfed to deal 6.25% / 12.5% / 25% damage for the respective layers.
What I expect, mainly due to patterns in gens 1-4.
1. New pokes
New 3-evo line of birds., I cant wait for something to outclass staraptor, that thing pwns.
New 2-evo line of rodentia. So far, they have all been normal type, except bibarel, which is water normal. The rodentia of previous gens, has been less than spectacular, although it did have its strong points, giving us the concept of F.E.A.R, Belly drum linoone, and Simple, an ability that put bibarel into a BP reciepient to fear.
At least 1 new legendary trio, maybe 2, Although to be honest they are running out of concepts. Previously, We have: Birds,Beasts(both have 1 OU, 1 UU, 1 NU),Golems(2 UU, 1 NU),Weather(all uber),Pixies(1 OU, 2 UU) and, Dragons(all uber) Following this trend, we will have a "minor" trio with 1 ou and 2 uu, and base stats totaling 580, and a "major" trio with all ubers, and asuming that nothing major happens, which it wont.
At least 1 new legendary duo. Need I say more?
We will have at least 1 "cute" legendary, probably having base 100 stats all around, possibly psychic, at least OU.
We will have 3 starters, each with a 3-evo line, with it being 1 each of Water, fire and grass.
We will have a doggie. Evidented bythe existence of arcanine, ninetales, houndoom, manetric, and luxray.
We will have pre-evos and evos of current pokes, including at least 2 new eeveelutions
2. Game mechanics
There will be a FUNDEMENTAL change to the game mechanics. From gen1->2, there was the split of the special stat, weather, and the types of steel and dark. 2->3 you got abilities, and further implementation of weather. 3->4 Who could forget the infamous physical-special split, which allowed for pokemon to use STAB with their highest stat almost always. So far, they havent really royally screwed up with the additions, so as long as we dont get a gay, mini-game based battle mechanics. I think we are free. I personally, want a further addition to the physical-special split, having for example ice punch, use 90% of your attack stat+10% of your special attack stat for its offencive stat, and have the
defender use 90% of their defence + 10% of their special defence. Its a thought....
1. New pokes
New 3-evo line of birds., I cant wait for something to outclass staraptor, that thing pwns.
New 2-evo line of rodentia. So far, they have all been normal type, except bibarel, which is water normal. The rodentia of previous gens, has been less than spectacular, although it did have its strong points, giving us the concept of F.E.A.R, Belly drum linoone, and Simple, an ability that put bibarel into a BP reciepient to fear.
At least 1 new legendary trio, maybe 2, Although to be honest they are running out of concepts. Previously, We have: Birds,Beasts(both have 1 OU, 1 UU, 1 NU),Golems(2 UU, 1 NU),Weather(all uber),Pixies(1 OU, 2 UU) and, Dragons(all uber) Following this trend, we will have a "minor" trio with 1 ou and 2 uu, and base stats totaling 580, and a "major" trio with all ubers, and asuming that nothing major happens, which it wont.
At least 1 new legendary duo. Need I say more?
We will have at least 1 "cute" legendary, probably having base 100 stats all around, possibly psychic, at least OU.
We will have 3 starters, each with a 3-evo line, with it being 1 each of Water, fire and grass.
We will have a doggie. Evidented bythe existence of arcanine, ninetales, houndoom, manetric, and luxray.
We will have pre-evos and evos of current pokes, including at least 2 new eeveelutions
2. Game mechanics
There will be a FUNDEMENTAL change to the game mechanics. From gen1->2, there was the split of the special stat, weather, and the types of steel and dark. 2->3 you got abilities, and further implementation of weather. 3->4 Who could forget the infamous physical-special split, which allowed for pokemon to use STAB with their highest stat almost always. So far, they havent really royally screwed up with the additions, so as long as we dont get a gay, mini-game based battle mechanics. I think we are free. I personally, want a further addition to the physical-special split, having for example ice punch, use 90% of your attack stat+10% of your special attack stat for its offencive stat, and have the
defender use 90% of their defence + 10% of their special defence. Its a thought....
Game Freak does not take competitive viability into account when they make Pokemon, so your basis on OU, UU legendaries from previous generations is irrelevant. Japan doesn't even have the same tiers as us. Furthermore, generation 4 experienced a sway in a new direction as far as trends go. For one thing, they didn't have any "semi-uber" right before the Uber numbers, as they did in previous generations. i.e. Dragonite, Salamence, Metagross, Tyranitar. There also were no Eeveelutions for generation 3, and seeing as all original Special Attacking types are taken, it is not likely they will make more.
*CoughDragonCough*
But there are many things we can expect. We will also be given an egg most probably. Maybe even two. There are heaps of things we know are happening and listing them is kinda redundant. We are all pokemon fans here.
But there are many things we can expect. We will also be given an egg most probably. Maybe even two. There are heaps of things we know are happening and listing them is kinda redundant. We are all pokemon fans here.
TECHNICALLY it would learn Roost by default because Gamefreak actually has patterns to handing out TMs/HMs. Them not giving it roost would break that pattern, and 9 times out of 10, GF doesn't do that.
Saying that though, means theres a 90% chance theres going to be no pure flying types.
Saying that though, means theres a 90% chance theres going to be no pure flying types.
I'm surprised no one has thought about the idea of making Speed determine your Evasion. I personally think that it's a wonderful idea, that the more Speed a pokemon has, the more evasion it gets (It's simply pure logic that a speedy pokemon should be able to avoid attacks better than a slow one).
Sure, speed would be even more of a priority, but it would make some pokemon with generally weak stats and high speed more used. It would indirectly give speedy pokemon more staying power, regardless of other stats. Let's say pokemon get 1% Evasion for every 10 points of base speed or something. So a base 100 speed pokemon would have 10% evade, which would make stuff like Fire Blast/Blizzard/Hydro Pump even more annoying to hit with.
EDIT: Or, evasion could be determined by the difference in base speed between the pokemon you're fighting, and your own. So the more speed your pokemon has, the more likely it is to evade your opponents attacks. Just an idea.
The more easy thing to balance though, could be an evade stat, that can't be EV-trained nor have any specific IVs. Just to show Evasion of said pokemon. It would also not go up with levels, but be a static stat just to give the information.
I could personally see this happening, but I'm sure there could be problems as well. Anyway, I think it could give the game an entirely new dimension.
(Gets flame shield up
)
Sure, speed would be even more of a priority, but it would make some pokemon with generally weak stats and high speed more used. It would indirectly give speedy pokemon more staying power, regardless of other stats. Let's say pokemon get 1% Evasion for every 10 points of base speed or something. So a base 100 speed pokemon would have 10% evade, which would make stuff like Fire Blast/Blizzard/Hydro Pump even more annoying to hit with.
EDIT: Or, evasion could be determined by the difference in base speed between the pokemon you're fighting, and your own. So the more speed your pokemon has, the more likely it is to evade your opponents attacks. Just an idea.
The more easy thing to balance though, could be an evade stat, that can't be EV-trained nor have any specific IVs. Just to show Evasion of said pokemon. It would also not go up with levels, but be a static stat just to give the information.
I could personally see this happening, but I'm sure there could be problems as well. Anyway, I think it could give the game an entirely new dimension.
(Gets flame shield up
)
Nope Evasion should be higher the smaller a poke is. Then the pissy little caterpie is now cool coz it can't get hit.
Basing every mechanic in the game on speed was what they did in RBY.
Seeing as they got out of that, I don't think they're exactly willing to go back.
Also, Sand Veil and the like would become nearly useless abilities because instead of using Pokemon with those, you can just use LO Ninjask, and NEVER get hit, and sweep all day long.
Too many holes are created by evasion = speed by mechanics GF fixed 10 years ago.
Seeing as they got out of that, I don't think they're exactly willing to go back.
Also, Sand Veil and the like would become nearly useless abilities because instead of using Pokemon with those, you can just use LO Ninjask, and NEVER get hit, and sweep all day long.
Too many holes are created by evasion = speed by mechanics GF fixed 10 years ago.
Aerial Ace. Sorry, Caterpie.
Dragon?
Also, Leafeon is a physical Grass type, and Flareon has higher atk than sp. atk. There's absolutely no reason not to continue with the eeveelutions.
Ideally speaking, moves would also have range. While something like Outrage may require you to be at an adjacent spot, a move like Flamethrower would reach out across three spots in a straight line, Fire Blast across in a 3-2-1 pattern (reaching out three spots, and dissipating as it goes further), Earthquake in a circle pattern around the Pokemon performing the attack, etc.
This could lead to how powerful a move is, etc. ie; Draco Meteor, when adjacent to another Pokemon has 60 base power, one spot away it has 100 base power, but at two spots away it hits for maximum damage at 120 base power. There's a lot that could be said about an RTS style Pokemon, even if it's just 1v1.
Well I'm going to jump into this discussion about Stealth Rock. First of all, we 'might' see a new form of Spikes, but don't count on it, so far every other generation has introduced atleast 1 new form.
Secondly, changing the mechanics of these aren't really all that necessary. Think about it. All we need is a Rapid Spin that is not normal (maybe water type, I've always thought pokemon like Squirtle could spin using a water move to clear out an area). Or maybe a pokemon like Miltank gets a tutor for Rapid Spin, abusing Scrappy and becoming the premier spinner.
Secondly, changing the mechanics of these aren't really all that necessary. Think about it. All we need is a Rapid Spin that is not normal (maybe water type, I've always thought pokemon like Squirtle could spin using a water move to clear out an area). Or maybe a pokemon like Miltank gets a tutor for Rapid Spin, abusing Scrappy and becoming the premier spinner.
Stealth Rock's effectiveness has nothing to do with Spikes lack of use. The bottom line is that there is absolutely no reason not to use Stealth Rock.
Or you can just get rid of the stupid move.
I agreed with the majority of your post, excluding the inclusion of a Pokemon that has the ability of removing entry hazards for the sole purpose of dealing with the problem. It could benefit the metagame, but if there's anything history teaches us, it's typically that the solutions to problems wind up being a bigger problem.
Also I'd like to add to your list that Rapid Spin users are also at an immediate disadvantage the majority of the time because not only are they taking a turn to rid themselves of the entry hazard (which as you explained is already a poor investment), but you are giving your opponent a free turn to switch to anything because Rapid Spin poses no threat to the opponent outside of removing an entry hazard. This means that if a Ghost is substituted in, the whole turn is wasted, and if a non-Ghost type is swapped in, they've earned a free safe switch and the potential for set up and sweep and what have you. Set up Screens, lay your own hazards, I don't care. You get the point.
Also, not like it actually matters, because it is unlikely that A) Game Freak takes competitive Pokemon in to consideration and B) even if they had, there is absolutely no way they would be taking considerations from the suggestions in this thread, but for arguments sake the idea of more Stealth Rock imitations on different typings is in my opinion a horrible idea. It's bad enough as it is.
I'm sure this has been suggested, but I'm in favor of multi-type attacks. They would get double STAB on Pokemon with both of their types and do up to 8x damage if the opposing Pokemon was doubly weak to both types. This would be partially balanced by the fact that they would meet with twice as many resistances and such too, but I think they would still be very powerful. That isn't necessarily bad, though, as it would be another interesting way to make a Pokemon with bad stats or bad typing competitively viable in a way that isn't too gimmicky and actually requires some strategy to implement.
^ The problem with that idea is the little kiddies have a hard enough time working type matchups now. Gamefreak aren't going to lose that market to make it cooler for older players who will buy it anyway.
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