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np: UU - Can't Touch This

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Friar said:
I agree with Uberiffic, Rain is definitely tough to beat, but unless the rain player is innovative and uses something non standard, an offensive team can usually win if they can survive one bout of Rain. Once the Rain is over, stuff like Raikou, Sceptile, even offensive Venusaur can rip the team apart. To survive the first Rainstorm, I use priority attacks, sacrifice stuff I don't need (like...say.. Rhyperior), and switch around through resistances. Playing Rain just takes a little prediction and long term thinking.
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It's not that simple all the time. Most good rain teams have a bulky setup mon that can take a hit from Raikou/all the fast stuff - Registeel, Uxie, Cresselia come to mind. Or heck, Rain teams usually carry a fast setup of their own, like Ambipom or Raikou.
 
About Kabutops: there's still pokes that can wall it even after a SD (damn you Quagsire, walling my beloved Aggron isn't enough for you?)

About offensive teams being a bad matchup against RD teams: you have to... well, be creative. Or a king of prediction.
For offensive teams, Gardevoir works. It's not that fast against non RD teams, but it's base 125 sp.atk means it hits hard. And Trace Swift Swim means it can basically outspeed everything under rain and Thunderbolt pokes to death.
Golduck works as a CM user and Encorer who stops the rain with Cloud Nine(and Golduck is also good agaisnt other weather teams as well).
Those two are top RD counters IMO.

With some prediction, Venusaur and LO Milotic can ko at least something. Arcanine is the only non useless fire poke against RD teams because of Extremespeed. If you use Toxicroak, you can revenge something low at health with Arcanine, and switch in Toxicroak on the obvious Surf.

If you have time(you won't...), DD Feraligatr can outspeed most things and KO them with powerful waterfalls/Earthquakes and such.
Toxicroak fares well like we all know.

I can't think of anything else that we use in HO teams that could be useful against a RD team...
 
M BLADE said:
For offensive teams, Gardevoir works. It's not that fast against non RD teams, but it's base 125 sp.atk means it hits hard. And Trace Swift Swim means it can basically outspeed everything under rain and Thunderbolt pokes to death.
Golduck works as a CM user and Encorer who stops the rain with Cloud Nine(and Golduck is also good agaisnt other weather teams as well).
Those two are top RD counters IMO.

With some prediction, Venusaur and LO Milotic can ko at least something. Arcanine is the only non useless fire poke against RD teams because of Extremespeed. If you use Toxicroak, you can revenge something low at health with Arcanine, and switch in Toxicroak on the obvious Surf.

If you have time(you won't...), DD Feraligatr can outspeed most things and KO them with powerful waterfalls/Earthquakes and such.
Toxicroak fares well like we all know.
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About gardevior...All rain dance teams pack a bulky pokemon to use rain dance....aka Raikou and Uxie.. so unless there is no other option to switch out, most ppl wont sacrifice there pokemon if they can come in and sweep again...and gardevior cannot switch into surfs so easily. Yes to predicted ice beams, or other non-water attacks from special sweepers...

Golduck is interesting but i'm curious how it should be EVed to dish out damage and take damage...repeated surfs unboosted in the rain and resisted still seems like it would do some damage to golduck when you encore and as stated before all rain dance have a bulky side kick for support.

Arcanine i wouldnt say is the only non-useless one...blaziken has vacumm wave for kabutops and omastar, but those are easy to see coming so easy switch in for uxie and the rain will reduce the fire damage done to uxie...
 
Really, people should stop considering rain teams as they were all equal and packed four pokés only: Ludicolo, Omastar/Gorebyss, Kabutops and Qwilfish. As mentioned before, Gardevoir is no ace at taking down Rain Teams, as stuff like Registeel, Cresselia, Uxie, Raikou, Priority, Lanturn *inserts other 10 possibilities* handle it. Golduck is honestly not enough of a defensive backbone against it as well. It's stopped cold by many of the aformentioned pokés, as they can paralyze it or Thunder it do death (accuracy issues aren't that bothersome), while Golduck can't even abuse rain boosted Surfs.

Regarding LO Milotic, it's major Ludicolo fodder, but yeah, might help when given the right conditions. Venusaur can't take a single Ice Beam from Gorebyss though (IIRC), so it needs a specially defensive set that is walled by Cress/ Uxie/ Registeel anyway. Offensive sets can take a hit against stuff like Ludi and Kabutops if in pristine conditions, but are still walled by the aformentioned pokés and can do no more than taking one poké down.

DD Gatr outspeeds none of the rain sweepers, unless it runs Jolly, and still the only ones it can outpace are Gorebyss and Omastar.
 
Actually Gardevoir seems to be a pretty effective Pokemon against Rain teams.

Timid Specs Psychic vs. 72/0 Adamant Kabutops = 103.2% - 121.5% OHKO
Timid Specs Psychic vs. 0/0 Adamant Qwilfish = 255.4% - 301.1% lol
Timid Specs Psychic vs. 36/0 Modest Gorebyss = 104.2% - 123.5% OHKO
Timid Specs Psychic vs. 4/0 Modest Omastar = 102.1% - 120.2% OHKO
Timid Specs Psychic vs. 0/0 Modest Ludicolo = 71.1% - 84.1% 2HKO

So Ludicolo is the only sweeper on a rain team that can survive one Psychic from Gardevoir. All these Pokemon are outsped.

Let's see how Kabutops' Aqua Jet fairs against Gardevoir

252Atk Adamant LO rain boosted Aqua Jet vs. 4/0 Gardevoir = 65.8% - 77.7%
So that's not even an OHKO with SR. So yes Kabutops can do something but then it dies and following it the rest of it's teammates.

252SpA Modest LO rain boosted Surf vs. 4/0 Gardevoir = 82.0% - 96.4%
This is Ludicolo's Surf against Gardevoir, since it's the only rain sweeper who can survive her attack. If the rain team hasn't gotten SR yet (which is very common considering they mostly lead with Electrode) then Gardevoir can even survive Ludicolos Surf and defeat it.
A few other calcs.

Idk what Raikou runs when supporting a rain team, i'm assuming 252HP/252Spe Timid
Timid Specs Psychic vs. 252HP/0 Raikou = 55.7% - 65.9%
So Raikou is 2HKO'd, and assuming let's say Omastar sees Gardevoir and switches to Raikou then Raikou is outsped and KO'd without doing anything, since Swift Swim gives her higher speed then Raikou.

Timid Specs Psychic vs. 252HP/0 Ambipom = 85.0% - 100.3%
0Atk Jolly Ambipom Fake Out vs. 4/0 Gardevoir = 33.5% - 39.2%
Now I chose 0Atk for this Ambipom because it's supporting a rain team so it ran Max HP, and it's Fake Out against Gardevoir isn't much. Ambipom is outsped if rain is up and OHKO'd most of the time with one switch-in to SR.

Let's say the opponent uses a more offensive support Ambipom.
252Atk Jolly Ambipom vs. 4/0 Gardevoir = 42.1% - 49.6%
So now Ambipom is for sure OHKO'd and can barely knock off even half of Gardevoirs health. So Ambipom and Raikou aren't a large threat for Gardevoir.

Of course Uxie/Registeel/Cresselia can switch into these Psychics, but that means that your opponent is wasting valuable attack turns, and let's face it these walls have barely any offense, especially since they're ev'd defensively. You can just switch in your Subperior or whatever else you want and guarantee a KO on either these walls or a sweeper that switches in.

Edit:Oops forgot Lanturn

Timid Specs Psychic vs. 40HP/252SpD Lanturn = 45.9% - 54.1% 2HKO with SR and a chance without it.

And Gardevoir can even run Modest and and it wouldn't matter, only being outsped by Qwilfish. This would assure the OHKO on Ludicolo. Heck, you can even run Trace Calm Mind Gardevoir and set up on Ludicolo then sweep, that way you can actually hit the walls with Signal Beam/Shadow Ball.
 
Bluewind said:
DD Gatr outspeeds none of the rain sweepers, unless it runs Jolly, and still the only ones it can outpace are Gorebyss and Omastar.
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Sure, DD Gatr can't really do anything to rain after one DD, but after two? Very possible. Two DDs will run through every rain team out there I'm pretty sure, and I feel that is very possible to obtain, at the very least with the set I run. Electrode Rain Dances then Explodes, leaving six (or seven?) turns of rain. Stall out those rain turns, and let something die on the turn the rain ends (as long as it isn't Ludicolo) Bring in Gatr for the "revenge" kill. Sub as they switch to their secondary rain setupper, DD on the rain, DD on the switch/U-Turn/Explosion, and proceed to sweep with Boosted Waterfalls.

Just to clarify though, I am siding with franky. That solution is way too specific. If anything happens to Gatr, if I make one misprediction, it's game over. Rain is broken under the offensive characteristic. It can sweep far more easily then any sweeper that we've ever nominated or banned to BL. I'm going to steal a point hyu made during the hail discussion: Are the pokemon banned or is the condition banned? In the same way it was discussed that Snover should be a suspect for breaking other pokes, Damp Rock makes the rain sweepers broken. So therefore I would say that:

1) Rain Offense is broken under the Offensive Characteristic for it's ability to beat a large majority of the metagame with far too much ease.

2) Damp Rock is broken under the Support Characteristic for making it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep teams.

...that is, if we can apply the uber characteristics to this circumstance :)
 
Rolfkip said:
Sure, DD Gatr can't really do anything to rain after one DD, but after two? Very possible. Two DDs will run through every rain team out there I'm pretty sure, and I feel that is very possible to obtain, at the very least with the set I run. Electrode Rain Dances then Explodes, leaving six (or seven?) turns of rain. Stall out those rain turns, and let something die on the turn the rain ends (as long as it isn't Ludicolo) Bring in Gatr for the "revenge" kill. Sub as they switch to their secondary rain setupper, DD on the rain, DD on the switch/U-Turn/Explosion, and proceed to sweep with Boosted Waterfalls.
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I don't know about others, but I would never let Gatr get free turns, due to the fact it can walk over a team if rain isn't up, and I'd rather let my poke attack until it dies and bring something that can take care of it accordingly. Also, setting up rain against Feraligatr is a huge mistake, since it would be boosting any SD sets with Aqua Jet and DD sets might be nigh on impossible to take down. Finally, Kabutops/ Qwilfish still outspeed Gatr even after 2 DDs, provided aformentioned Gatr isn't Jolly.
 
Bluewind said:
I don't know about others, but I would never let Gatr get free turns, due to the fact it can walk over a team if rain isn't up, and I'd rather let my poke attack until it dies and bring something that can take care of it accordingly. Also, setting up rain against Feraligatr is a huge mistake, since it would be boosting any SD sets with Aqua Jet and DD sets might be nigh on impossible to take down. Finally, Kabutops/ Qwilfish still outspeed Gatr even after 2 DDs, provided aformentioned Gatr isn't Jolly.
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The aformentioned Gatr is Jolly fyi. It is also bulky enough to take a Kabutops Stone Edge and DD. But I don't think a +1 Waterfall would KO Kabutops. A shaky counter.

That's what all rain counters are after all. There's no "surefire" rain counter.

I've been toying with the idea of running pokes that lure the standard RD "counters" (Registeel, Cressy, Milotic, Croak) then beat them. In my last three spots I would run a standard 3-poke rain team. (Uxie/Electrode, Kabutops, Gorebyss) You could also flip-flop: use rain to lure the "counters" out (and just sweep most teams in general) and run pokes that can beat those pokes in your last couple spots.
 
I have literally played an anti-rain team consisting Golduck and Timid Specs Gardevoir, and yes it gave my team a run for their money. However, lets be practical here, the characteristics says common battle condition. Lets face it, Golduck and Specs Gardevoir a extremely uncommon, and its not under "common battle conditon".
 
I'd like to present my newest combo.
---
Ninetales used Substitute.
Ninetales lost 25% of its health.
Ninetales made a substitute!
Chansey used Seismic Toss.
The substitute took damage for Ninetales!
Ninetales's substitute faded!
Ninetales's leftovers restored its health a little!
Ninetales restored 6% of its health.
Chansey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Chansey restored 6% of its health.
---

Ninetales used Grudge.
Ninetales is bearing a Grudge!
Chansey used Seismic Toss.
Ninetales lost 21% of its health.
Brand New Eyes's Ninetales fainted.
Seismic Toss lost its PP due to the Grudge!
Chansey's leftovers restored its health a little!
Chansey restored 2% of its health.
---
Brand New Eyes switched in Raikou (lvl 100 Raikou).
Raikou is exerting its pressure!
Raikou used Substitute.
Raikou lost 25% of its health.
Raikou made a substitute!
Chansey used Toxic.
But it failed!
Raikou's leftovers restored its health a little!
Raikou restored 6% of its health.

And then you Calm Mind, and sweep. :)
Works with other stuff like Dugtrio's EQ and all that jazz.
Try it out and see if you like it. ^_^
 
that's not new, I'm pretty sure I heard of people doing that back in third gen. But its an interesting combo none the less
 
lati0s said:
that's not new, I'm pretty sure I heard of people doing that back in third gen. But its an interesting combo none the less
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Yes, I know, I had to look at the 3rd gen analysis to find out it got grudge. =P

It's just the newest thing i'm using, cause I like having combos in my team. =)
 
I can back up that grudge combo, it was the key to my defeat in the second match I had vs Thund tonight. *Switches Clefables Flame Orb to Leppa Berry*

On another note, when does the testing period end? I have to get my rating up ._.
 
I've been screwing around and trying to salvage some forgotten NU Pokemon on the ladder lately, and I've been using a set that's been pretty bloody effective...

Jynx @ Leftovers
Timid
40 HP 252 SATK 216 SPE
-Ice Beam
-Nasty Plot
-Lovely Kiss
-Substitute

Those of you who played Pokemon competitively back in Advance will probably recognize this as a more offensive variant of the popular Luna set. Those of you who play the Ubers ladder (particularly those of you that have played against me!) realize that this is very similar to SubDarkari, and just as dangerous in UU as it is in Ubers.
The idea behind this set is simple. Come in on a special attacking wall, preferably one that uses primarily Psychic or Ice attacks (Cresselia, Uxie, Mespirit, Gardevoir, etc), or after something dies/recovers. Then use Substitute to scout their answer to Jynx. Then either put it to sleep or start boosting your stats and attack with Ice Beam.
This set is effective because Jynx is fairly fast for the UU tier (the EVs given allow it to outrun +base90s and below), has the ability to cripple one of its counters instantly, and has a great mono-attacking STAB.
Make sure you keep Jynx away from priority attacks. Pretty much any physical priority will end it due to 65/35 defenses. But most priority users won't enjoy Ice Beam from 329 SATK, or being put to sleep.
 
Friar said:
I agree with Uberiffic, Rain is definitely tough to beat, but unless the rain player is innovative and uses something non standard, an offensive team can usually win if they can survive one bout of Rain. Once the Rain is over, stuff like Raikou, Sceptile, even offensive Venusaur can rip the team apart. To survive the first Rainstorm, I use priority attacks, sacrifice stuff I don't need (like...say.. Rhyperior), and switch around through resistances. Playing Rain just takes a little prediction and long term thinking.
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Rain is not hard to beat. Why are so many people asking for rain to be banned? You can't just go into battle and expect to beat evrey style of play. You have to prepare your team for RD teams
 
Golden Sun said:
Rain is not hard to beat. Why are so many people asking for rain to be banned? You can't just go into battle and expect to beat evrey style of play. You have to prepare your team for RD teams
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But the true counters of Rain are so few and far between and for many teams, toxicroak/guardevoir/golduck just wont be a good fit and just prove a dead weight in terms of synergy and usefulness vs other/othordox playstyles. The fact that rain can beat both stall and offense comfortably under normal battle conditions (seriously, who the fuck uses guardevoir and golduck in a serious team), means it is broken. i.e best case scenario, i switch stall with 100% perfect prediction for 8 turns, and still start my first meaningful attack with all mons at ~50%
 
Smurf. said:
But the true counters of Rain are so few and far between and for many teams, toxicroak/guardevoir/golduck just wont be a good fit and just prove a dead weight in terms of synergy and usefulness vs other/othordox playstyles. The fact that rain can beat both stall and offense comfortably under normal battle conditions (seriously, who the fuck uses gardevoir and golduck in a serious team), means it is broken. i.e best case scenario, i switch stall with 100% perfect prediction for 8 turns, and still start my first meaningful attack with all mons at ~50%
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Uh... me?

Seriously, people should learn of not depending on the same damn pokes.
Golduck is valuable in my team(all NU or not), not only serving as a CM sweeper but also a Encorer(don't dare to say Alakazam) and a anti weather poke(especially Sandstorm ones... they HATE Golduck).

Maybe i'll post my team in the RMT section... but i ensure you that my win-loss count is somewhere between 170-25.
Yes, that's with a completely NU team. And said NU team got beaten 7 times agaisnt RD teams, and won somewhere between 25 and 27 times.

And really: one poke isn't going to counter a entire team. As good as it may be, Golduck still has problems with some pokes used on RD teams. As does Gardevoir.

Anyway, let's gorget about the forgotten duck... let's talk about the overpowered ducks of doom.

Has Porygon Z declined a little on use?
And Cresselias are more inclined to full support nowadays?
And why the hell there are so many Sleep Talk Milotics?
 
I don't get why people keep mentioning Toxicroak, Gardevoir, Golduck, etc. They're not the only ways to beat rain. You'd think rain teams had a level 1 Kyogre or something.
 
Ontop said:
Marvel scale gives it the defenses 95/119/125 when it's asleep. I think peoples are starting to realize that.
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Yeah... but facing Toxicroaks and Venusaurs isn't the best scenario...
Not only Toxicroak and Venusaur, but anything with a set up move... against that i've seen even SleepTalkHaze Milotics... completely walled by anything immune to water and doesn't like grass pokes at all.
 
M BLADE said:
Yeah... but facing Toxicroaks and Venusaurs isn't the best scenario...
Not only Toxicroak and Venusaur, but anything with a set up move... against that i've seen even SleepTalkHaze Milotics... completely walled by anything immune to water and doesn't like grass pokes at all.
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Haze is kinda overkill -.-. I just think standard Milotic works the best (Surf/IB/recover/something)
 
Heysup's Helpful Awesome Guide to beating Rain Dance:

- USE A LEAD THAT IS FASTER THAN ELECTRODE WITH SLEEP POWDER OR TAUNT. This may seem stupid because it usually, well, always means that you will need to Scarf something, but the best way to stop Rain Dance is to not let them set up.

- Have another Pokemon faster than Uxie with Taunt so that they cannot switch to their second Rain Dance set up and get Rain up (this is likely Uxie or Registeel, and Uxie is the faster one). (Amibpom, Froslass, etc).

- Use at least one Pokemon that resists Ice, and one Pokemon that resists Water (that isn't OHKOed by stuff). This will help you exponentially in stalling out the opponent's Rain Dance. Additionally, if you predict correctly you can even Paralyze the opponent with something like Slowbro.

- Use Slowbro. Fuck Kabutops. Fuck Qwilfish. It's also not useless in other battles.

- Registeel helps.

- Use Fake Out, Protect, etc. on what ever Pokemon it makes sense to do so on, or choose Pokemon that use Fake Out. For example, use Wish + Protect on Clefable instead of Stealth Rock + Softboiled. Fake Out is especially good; not only does Fake Out damage the opponent, but it stalls a turn of rain. Technitop, Ambipom, and others come to mind.

- Use priority, especially Vacuum Wave. Most RD sweepers are lolweak to Special Fighting attacks, and Vacuum Wave from something like Blaziken or Toxicroak hurt them like hell. They OHKO Kabutops (careful when using Blaziken), Omastar, and do a hefty amount to Gorebyss. Watch out for Qwilfish though.

- Make your turns count. If the opponent does NOT have Rain Dance up, make sure to take this opportunity to destroy as much of their team as possible. This shouldn't be hard since without Rain they are just a slow and frail offensive team. It helps to use Pokemon like Raikou here, since it hits every Rain Sweeper SE besides Ludicolo.

- Ban Kabutops.

Yea, most of these are common sense but really people seem to be forgetting how to play rain just because Cresselia is around.

Note: You do not need to run all of these to beat Rain, they are just there as examples of what can help you beat rain.
 
Heysup, nice guide ;D. Although it's kinda pointless to include all of that in a team just to couner RD lol.

Although i don't get why so many peoples are gabbing about RD in UU. Like 1/20 teams are RD.
 
!'s guide to Rain Dance (and the metagame):

Use Venusaur-Registeel-Slowbro-Raikou-Reliable Taunter-Cress Check

Venusaur Lead is beyond obvious but, lead with Sleep Powder.
RegiBro is mauled by Rhyperior, Venusaur, Trick-users... but is a formidable walling combo.
Raikou's best set is his SleepTalk set. Use it.
You have a choice of using Ambipom or Froslass. Both are effective Taunters.
Best way to check Cress is to be faster or taunt it as it switches in, Immune to T-wave, and able to hit it supereffectively. Easy right?

The team is incredibly weak to stacking entry hazards, Trick-P-Z, and Venusuar.

End guide!

On another note, RAIN IS BEATABLE we fucking know that already. You guys are looking for a single Pokemon to beat an entire play-style. That is just absurd in my mind. And seriously, what answers do you expect to receive from testing a ban on Damp Rock? Rain teams are not that common from the get go and even if that does change during the test people will be using more specific checks to beat rain than they normally would. Which I suppose would then be considered 'normal' but there is some kind of fault there that I cannot put my finger on.

Ban the stupid rock and lets move on.
 
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