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np: UU - Can't Touch This

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How effective is a RD team w/o Damp Rock(s)?

Without a Rock on the RDer it shortens the time to sweep, and would therefore make them less broken.

Also, I feel like Kabutops isn't broken, except on RD teams, outside of RD its easily walled and/or killed by Registeel or Steelix. It would be kinda dumb just to ban it because of Rain Dance, just ban Damp Rock imo and make RD still usable, but not broken.
 
It looks like Kitsunine made my point better than I could. I do not see the problem with nominating Damp Rock just like any Pokémon, but we should remind ourselves that we lose less broken ways of using a playstyle or Pokémon no matter what we ban.
 
It seems like everyone on here says Damp rock should be banned. It might be a good idéa although only like 5-10% of UU teams are RD. This thread made be start laddering UU to see if people really used that much RD but they really didn't....
 
I'm just curious to know why ppl think Rain Dance Teams are broken in today's metagame when they have always been the same since the start of DP with a few little tweaks after the introduction of platinum (and ludicolo seems to be the only one who gets the benefit with seed bomb)

Did RD start coming to light after the banning and unbanning of the BLs? Or is that the playing style of this metagame has left it to be a sucker for RD teams?
 
jamashawalker said:
I'm just curious to know why ppl think Rain Dance Teams are broken in today's metagame when they have always been the same since the start of DP with a few little tweaks after the introduction of platinum (and ludicolo seems to be the only one who gets the benefit with seed bomb)

Did RD start coming to light after the banning and unbanning of the BLs? Or is that the playing style of this metagame has left it to be a sucker for RD teams?
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My main theory is that the trigger for RD power was the banning of Abomasnow. That meant that there was no "good" weather counter, with the only entry weather 'mons being the heavily NFE and thus subpar Snover and Hippopotas. Neither of those can stand up to an RD team properly, like Abomasnow used to (see how Swimless Kabutops likes taking a Wood Hammer in the face!). Not saying Abomasnow's BL placement was a bad thing, just that it's the main metagame change that precipitated this.
 
Kitsunine said:
Isn't that like saying banning Honchkrow wasn't fair to the people who used its Nasty Plot set?
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Not even close. Kabutops is usable outside of Rain as a standard poke. NP Honckrow is just underwhelming.


If we banned Kabutops, then all users of Kabutops (outside rain) would be screwed over.
 
Heysup said:
Care to explain?

I don't see how neutrality to one of the least relevant attacks (Thunderbolt) on a Rain Dance team (only commonly used by Raikou, who beats Ludicolo if it switches in regardless; Grass is a far more valuable neutrality but Qwilfish covers that as well) outweighs the fact that Kabutops beats:

Blaziken
Hitmontop
Swellow (WITHOUT RAIN)
Venusaur
Choice Scarf Moltres, and still beats LO Moltres without Rain
Snover (important for rain)
Arcanine
Spiritomb
Chansey
Registeel (albeit Kabutops get paralyzed unless it runs Lum Berry)
Choice Scarf Pokemon
Uxie
Cresselia
Mesprit
Honchkrow

(Note: I don't mean mean that other Pokemon simply cannot beat these Pokemon, I am merely stating that Kabutops has a much easier time doing so. There are many in this list that only Kabutops can beat though)

Etc.

Ludicolo stops....Choice Scarf Gardevoir? Well guess what:

+2 Kabutop's Aqua Jet vs Gardevoir: 130.9% - 154.7%

Yea, Gardevoir is covered by Kabutops as well.

My reasoning for Kabutops (and to lesser extent, Qwilfish) being "too powerful" is that it covers SO many of the usual, and otherwise plausible Rain Dance counters. It is also the only Rain Dance Pokemon that functions without the Rain.

@ Lee:

Yea, I forgot to list screens. Probably because I don't use them, and that they will be hard to set up against something like Electrode.
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I said "example". And if Gardevoir is coming in, it's NEVER against Kabutops. In fact, it's more a revenger than a counter. Don't count the +2.
Oh... Gardevoir doesn't need Scarf. It can Trace Swift Swim.

Say: whenever you face something like Quagsire, who can take care of Kabutops, who's going to switch in on EQ? Ludicolo.
Agaisnt bulky waters? Ludicolo.
Need to take a grass attack? Guess what, Ludicolo.
Need something with good resists that can use Swift Swim? Hmm... maybe... Ludicolo?
Want to surprise? Use SD... well... Ludicolo.

Especially true when something like Quagsire(as rare as it is) basically walls every support pokes out there... Lanturn, Registeel, Ambipom, even those Raikou that normally uses HP Water on RD teams.(or at least Encore something like Uxie).

My point is: Kabutops IS the best one, there's no doubt. But without Ludicolo we wouldn't have a Swift Swimmer with those valuable resists and the right typing, thus making it easier to handle said team.
 
PK Gaming said:
Not even close. Kabutops is usable outside of Rain as a standard poke. NP Honckrow is just underwhelming.


If we banned Kabutops, then all users of Kabutops (outside rain) would be screwed over.
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I understand your point, I suppose, but it really just sounds to me that you're saying that the people who don't use Kabu optimally will no longer be able to use him if he's banned. Which, well, yes - that's correct. But I don't think that's an arguement against the idea.

I mean, I'm sure you could argue that many Pokemon are viable in lower tiers as long as they're under suboptimal conditions. But I was under the impression that we considered Pokemon at their prime, not with a limb cut off.

If anyone thinks Kabutops (or Ludicolo or any other Pokemon) is broken under rain (and thus worthy of banning Damp Rock), then I just think we should make that Pokemon the suspect, rather than that condition.

I mean is anyone really surprised that the top Rain Dancers are becoming issues? It's a team of UUs that's completely viable and competitive in OU. The idea that some of these guys might be BL always seemed pretty obvious to me. Why try to force them into UU?

Granted, this is just the musings of someone who's never really ladderred seriously. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong.
 
Banning a group of rain dance sweeper is something I wouldn't want. There are several good sweepers that are decent/good outside or their rain dance role. Also, why do people think Kabutops is the true threat for a RD team? I think every sweeper has their own merits. Kabutops may be a strong sweeper due to its great STAB and priority, but its typing leaves it an undesired weakness to Fighting priority. On the other hand, I feel like Qwillfish is more lethal since it resist the most common priority typing, and it has access to Explosion and Poison Jab. You could argue the same thing with other sweepers as well.

Banning 'Kabutops' alone will not solve this problem since the real culprit is the rain time itself. What happens if rain is still broken after banning Kabutops? It will add more complexity with the process, and we would eventually ban every single rain sweeper. This is why I said damp rock is the true problem; rain for eight turns is a long time, and like Rolfkip said, if everything is 3-1hko'd with a STAB move, then those eight turns are going to be a nightmare. 5 turns is all I ask for imo. I know that when I ran Rain Dance on Ludicolo a while back without Damp Rock, it felt less threatening for the opponent because its only a couple of switches until the rain is done. Like I said, ban damp rock = manageable rain.
 
j. franky said:
Banning a group of rain dance sweeper is something I wouldn't want. There are several good sweepers that are decent/good outside or their rain dance role. Also, why do people think Kabutops is the true threat for a RD team? I think every sweeper has their own merits. Kabutops may be a strong sweeper due to its great STAB and priority, but its typing leaves it an undesired weakness to Fighting priority. On the other hand, I feel like Qwillfish is more lethal since it resist the most common priority typing, and it has access to Explosion and Poison Jab. You could argue the same thing with other sweepers as well.

Banning 'Kabutops' alone will not solve this problem since the real culprit is the rain time itself. What happens if rain is still broken after banning Kabutops? It will add more complexity with the process, and we would eventually ban every single rain sweeper. This is why I said damp rock is the true problem; rain for eight turns is a long time, and like Rolfkip said, if everything is 3-1hko'd with a STAB move, then those eight turns are going to be a nightmare. 5 turns is all I ask for imo. I know that when I ran Rain Dance on Ludicolo a while back without Damp Rock, it felt less threatening for the opponent because its only a couple of switches until the rain is done. Like I said, ban damp rock = manageable rain.
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Completely and utterly agree with this point. I don't see how banning Damp Rock is so crippling anyway? Both TR and Gravity teams rely on said amount of turns (even less sometimes) anyway.

What do you need to qualify BTW?
 
Kitsunine said:
I understand your point, I suppose, but it really just sounds to me that you're saying that the people who don't use Kabu optimally will no longer be able to use him if he's banned. Which, well, yes - that's correct. But I don't think that's an arguement against the idea.

I mean, I'm sure you could argue that many Pokemon are viable in lower tiers as long as they're under suboptimal conditions. But I was under the impression that we considered Pokemon at their prime, not with a limb cut off.

If anyone thinks Kabutops (or Ludicolo or any other Pokemon) is broken under rain (and thus worthy of banning Damp Rock), then I just think we should make that Pokemon the suspect, rather than that condition.

I mean is anyone really surprised that the top Rain Dancers are becoming issues? It's a team of UUs that's completely viable and competitive in OU. The idea that some of these guys might be BL always seemed pretty obvious to me. Why try to force them into UU?

Granted, this is just the musings of someone who's never really ladderred seriously. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong.
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I don't agree with this. Just because Kabutops is a monster under the rain, doesn't mean he isn't viable in any other team; in fact, he is still a devastating sweeper on his own as well as an effective lead. I would much rather ban Damp Rock than a specific rain sweeper because that is taking away that sweepers potential outside of rain. Other examples would be Omastar and Qwilfish as very effective spikers.
 
Oh, I thought the rating min was 1650. Cool, looks like I'll qualify, even though I've been trolling the ladder with Jynx.
 
Say, i don't know a thing about ratings or that kind of stuff.
My rating needs to be lower or higher than 1600 to be qualified?

The last time i saw it was on 1400 or something like that. Is this a good rating?
Though it's been 2 days without going to Shoddy...
 
M BLADE said:
Say, i don't know a thing about ratings or that kind of stuff.
My rating needs to be lower or higher than 1600 to be qualified?

The last time i saw it was on 1400 or something like that. Is this a good rating?
Though it's been 2 days without going to Shoddy...
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You rating needs to be at or higher than 1600 to qualify. 1400 isn't bad, but if you want to qualify, you have quite a bit to go.
 
Hellriser said:
You rating needs to be at or higher than 1600 to qualify. 1400 isn't bad, but if you want to qualify, you have quite a bit to go.
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1475 it is.
I paid the price of trolling out there with Luvdisc and Unown the last few days...
Even though i don't care and probably won't vote even if i was qualified...
 
I'm definitely voting this time. Last time I trusted my peers to ban Froslass and...yeah. I'm not taking that chance with Cresselia. Or Froslass, again.
 
P-Z ain't to bad. He's got a couple of checks when he's running the NP set. (mainly using encore) and his choice set can be walled by a bulky poke of choice.
 
I'm considering making an alt and grinding these remaining 10 days... I'll probably end up being too lazy, though >_>

If Frosslass isn't banned, I will be very sad. =[

P.S. About the argument between banning the Pokemon, or Damp Rock... Was Heat Rock banned in Little Cup? No, Tangela was, rather than an entire playstyle. For rain in UU, you can bring up the slippery slope argument, but I really think that only Kabutops will end up being banned, if anyone. Also, saying Kabutops users outside of Rain would be screwed isn't a good argument, since when a Pokemon is being considered for BL, it should be considered at its full power. (I'm not saying I support anything about Rain being banned, but if something is, it should be the pokemon, not Damp Rock)
 
I never really found any of the suspects particularly overwhelming to be honest. You have quite a few checks for each of them, and they become much easier to handle when you have such checks.

I'm just going to say this about rain-if anything is going to be banned, it should be Damp Rock. Kabutops can be dealt with, since you should always at all costs never let it get a SD up in the first place, though I suppose at times it is unavoidable. Without a SD, Kabutops is much easier to handle.
 
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