There Is No Kill Like Overkill! (OU RMT)

burnpsy

burnpsy

At a Glance:
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After a large amount of failed teams, I decided to select a Pokemon to base around instead of selecting a type of team and going from there. I ended up selecting Physical LO Flygon, and supplemented it with Gliscor. Everything else was built from there.

Changes are in red, because red is 1000x faster.
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metagross.png

Brainiac (Metagross) @ Occa Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 246 HP/236 Atk/12 Def/16 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch

It’s your standard Lead Metagross, but with a twist. In order to mess around with any given opponent’s prediction, it once had both EarthQuake and Meteor Mash, foregoing Explosion for more sweeping potential. This had gotten several KOs on “safe” switch-ins. As I’ve heard many say, a suicide lead is a waste of a Pokemon. With that, I missed any suicide OHKOs with Explosion, but I could hit for more overall. For some odd reason, its main issue seemed to be opposing Metagross. They always seemed to outsepeed and 2HKO. Due to that, a few Speed EVs were added, to outspeed other Metagross leads by 1 point. Further, in order to properly handle Suicune and Gyarados, Explosion was added over EarthQuake (as Heatran is a non-issue to the team).


starmie.png

Gemstone (Starmie) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 34 HP/224 Def/252 Spd
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Surf
- ThunderBolt
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

To replace the Latias that used to be in this space, as well as counter a large portion of the problems in the team, this Starmie was added. It assists Gyarados with Rapid Spin, and handles any Water-types who try to ruin my fun, barring other Starmie. Opposing Starmie outsped and OHKO'd without fail. However, a change in EV spread change should allow me a speed tie with all non Scarf'd Starmie. Thus the problem may now be nullified.


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RAEG (Gyarados) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- EarthQuake
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge

Standard Offensive DD Gyarados. It was changed from a Bulky EV Spread to an Offensive one. It has pretty much become the focus of the team in Flygon's stead, due to a recent refocusing of the team to increase good performance. It takes nothing from Stealth Rock because Starmie gets rid of it, and due to the other changes, this should be able to sweep easily. Lack of recovery has been somewhat apparent here, as every 3rd KO it gets is a suicide kill due to Life Orb recoil.


flygon.png

Antlion (Flygon) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- ThunderPunch
- U-Turn

Was the core of my team during the original building of the team. It tended to commonly get into a situation where it near OHKOs something, only to be KO’d back. That happened a lot, and seemed to be the only major issue with this. In order to assist the team with revenge kills, it has had its job changed to be such. One main issue, possibly the only one aside from not being able to switch in, is the plethora of Steel-types that switch into Outrage.


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Hope (Jirachi) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
- ThunderPunch
- Ice Punch
- U-Turn

 Jirachi is something my team really needed badly, a reliable counter to Latias, Salamance, and a good amount of other threats that the team just couldn't handle too well without it. It should be fairly self-explanatory. The main difference between this and the Flygon above is the threats they handle, all of which are different.


infernape.png

Disco (Infernape) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Fire Punch

Infernape manages to benefit from a good deal of things, including the ability to unexpectedly (for the opponent, that is), OHKO Gyarados and Salamence with Stone Edge. Against non-Water types, this thing suicided with Flare Blitz and Close Combat, usually resulting in a double KO, due to Life Orb damage. Priority moves are its main weakness, due to the low defenses. Fire Punch was added over Flare Blitz, so as to not suicide nearly as often.
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Hello.

First of all, when you are making a competitive Pokemon team, you should make sure none of your Pokemon are outclassed, in order to win most of the time. Flygon without the use of U-Turn is completely outclassed by Salamence. This means Salamence can use the exact same set except he does it more effectively. Also, I doubt your strategy will work against a skilled opponent because it has multiple flaws. Which half decent battler will allow you to get a Swords Dance, a Rock Polish and baton pass it? Gliscor is easily outpsed and hit with a SE move for the KO. A faster Taunter ruins your whole strategy and anything with Ice Shard can kill both Gliscor and Flygon no matter how many boosts it gets. Scizor with Bullet Punch which is almost on every team now ensures that your Flygon + Gliscor combo won't be going that far at all. The list of counters goes on. Unless you don't want this to be a competitive team, there has to be big changes in your teams goal.

This team is extremely DD Gyarados weak. It can use Gliscor as a setup fodder. Metagross is completely walled. BulkyDos can take repeated Dragon Pulses from Latias once it find s out it lacks Thunderbolt and setup. If it does setup, your whole team is OHKOed by a certain move.
MixMence is also a problem because you lack a good revenge killer and your whole team is outsped except for Infernape that cannot OHKO with any move. ScarfTar is also a huge threat to this team because it outspeeds all your Pokemons and OHKO/2HKO with the right move. Latias is completely walled and Pursuited to death and others are revenge killed with ease. Your final weakness is your Gengar/Rotom-A weakeness. Gengar especially is dangerous because Latias is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. Again, your whole team is outsped and KOed with the right move.

There are multiple things you should do to solve those weaknesses. First of all, the biggest problem is the lack of Speed and a good revenge killer. So in order to remedy this, I would suggest you attach a Choice Scarf to your Flygon and teach it U-Turn so it doesn't get outclassed. Here's the set:

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Jolly / Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moves: Earthquake / Outrage / Stone Edge / U-Turn

This is really important in order to revenge kill DD Gyarados and Salamence as well as Gengar and Scarf Tyranitar. Rotom-A is also OHKOed by Outrage making it a less frightening threat.

Now, in order for Gyarados to work at it's best, you need a decent Rapid Spinner because your Metagross doesn't do anything to prevent the opponent from setting up SR. Also, we need a Pokemon that is able to counter DD Gyarados, Gengar and Tyranitar (to an extent) because Flygon doesn't guarantee safety against those threats. The best Pokemon you can use here is Starmie because it outspeeds all of them and is able to dish out great amount of damage while having the ability of using Rapid Spin to help Gyarados function at it's best. Replace it with Latias as they both counter similar threats such as Infernape and Heatran. The transition won't be such a big one and will improve the team overall. However, you do lose Wish support but it isn't really needed since Infernape is a late game sweeper and won't be able to switch-in anyway and Gliscor has access to a recovery making Wish more and more redundant. Starmie makes a great status absorber thanks to Natural Cure and then Lum Berry won't be needed. Here's the Starmie set:

Starmie @ Life Orb
Timid / Natural Cure
EV Spread: 40 HP / 252 SpAtk / 216 Spe
Moves: Surf / Thunderbolt / Rapid Spin / Recover

The Speed EVs allow you to outspeed max speed Timid Latias, Gengar and Infernape which is all you'l ever need to outspeed.

Finally, now that we've made sure your team beats all of the OU threats, let's try enhancing this teams performance. For that, now that we've changed Flygon's moveset, Gliscor's baton pass set is useless. I have a suggestion that will make your team improve greatly. Change Gliscor's to the stall breaker moveset and use an offensive Gyarados. Here's the reasoning: Your bulky taunt Gyara beats stall, Lucario and Heatran. With Starmie Heatran is checked. With a stall breaker moveset, Gliscor beats Lucario and Stall. By using an offensive Gyarados, you will sweep a lot easier and wreck team while having a lot more versatility with 3 attacking moves improving this team's offensive capabilities. Here are the sets:

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Adamant / Intimidate
EV Spread: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Moves: Waterfall / Earthquake / Stone Edge / DD

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Jolly / Sand Veil
EV Spread: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spd
Moves: Earthquake / Taunt / Roost / Toxic

Finally, LO + the recoil from Flare Blitz + a potential Sandstorm is too much for Infernape. He will go down very easily because of that. He's also frail meaing he won't even be able to sweep isf he's going to lost that much HP every time he attacks. A better move choice would be Fire Punch which doesn't have any recoil damage and increases Infernape's survivability.

So finally, I know these are a lot of changes but they will improve your team alot. Here are the changes I suggest in tl;dr:

  • LO Flygon ---> Choice Scarf Flygon
  • Latias ---> LO Rapid Spin Starmie
  • Gyarados ---> Offensive 3 Atk Gyarados
  • Gliscor ---> Stall Breaker Gliscor set.
  • SD LO Infernape's Flare Blitz ---> Fire Punch
Good luck with your team and I hope I've helped improve it.
 
Thanks for the help. I tested every single one of your changes, and I must say - all of them were big improvements.

It seems that the only real issue left is Starmie. Only Metagross and Flygon can handle it. Metagross will most likely be out at the start of the game. Flygon's Outrage attempts will be met by Scizor, a mere temporary fix by forcing it out. Neither one can switch in safely. Thunderbolt + Ice Beam + Surf from Starmie OHKOs EVERYTHING sans Metagross, and outspeeds all but Flygon. Opposing Starmie seem to take out several Pokemon with them. :/
 
Even though you lose Rapid Spin support, you could try going back to a defensive Latias instead of your own Starmie in order to beat opposing ones. Make sure it knows Thunderbolt so that it has a move to KO Starmie and not be a setup fodder to Gyarados. Something along the lines of Recover / Thunderbolt / HP Fire / Dragon Pulse, will work perfectly fine with an EV Spread like: 252 HP / 76 SpAtk / 180 Spd outspeeding base 100s and standard MixApe. The item is up to you, both LO and Leftovers will do the trick, just a matter of preference.
 
Actually, I was incorrect about one thing here. I just figured out that Flygon can get in on Surf, I just have to use Infernape as a lure.

Also, I tried the Latias. The negatives are too great when compared to Starmie, it lead to several losses. The loss of Rapid Spin was especially impactful. Gyarados takes too much switching in.
 
Metagross-the standard metagross lead runs 12 spe evs, not 10, so if you changed tha spread to 244 hp/236 atk/12 def/16 spe, you should outspeed other lead gross by 1 point.
Starmie-a small item change of expert belt over life orb will stop the recoil from rapid spin, and still hit hard with SE moves

these minor changes, will hopefully improve your team even more :]
 
Those changes helped a lot.

Also, I ended up figuring out how to stop opposing Starmie. I maxed out the Speed EVs, so all non-Scarf'd Starmie have a Speed tie. Those that don't max out like me get a ThunderBolt to the face.
 
i sugest you change thunderpunch for stone edge on infernape, you need stone edge to hit salamence since he survive thunderpunch with no problems, close combat hit bulky waters (barring gyara, who die by stone edge) harder then thunderpunch, so its fair deal.
 
However, Stone Edge fails to OHKO either one after Intimidate, while ThunderPunch OHKOs Gyarados after Intimidate.
 
Your team is raped by Salamence, Latias, Gyarados, and Gengar which is definitely not good. Your Gliscor is just plain set-up fodder with the team core that you have. Jolly DD Salamence/ DD Gyarados will just set up on Gliscor and have a fun time vs your team after rocks are up. Your only ways of beating Mence after a DD is hoping to win a tie with Flygon and switching in Metagross after an anticipated Outrage. Your team does better vs DD Gyarados because you have Flygon/Starmie as checks, but Starmie won't win vs LO Gyarados and Flygon isn't the most reliable check vs Gyara. MixMence/Specs Latias/Gengar may also be your worst nightmare as they can really hurt your whole team with one click of a button. MixMence/Gengar can switch into Gliscor with ease and dent a huge part of your team with one click. MixMence can dent a huge part of your team with Draco Meteor. Gengar can get a Sub easy on Gliscor and maybe Infernape and start denting your whole team with a LO Shadow Ball. Latias can switch into Infernape/Gliscor and also do big damage with Draco Meteor/Surf.

My recommendation is to consider removing Gliscor, Flygon, or Starmie in your team. Gliscor is the big odd man out and putting something like:

Rotom-A @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/212 Spd/44 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Trick
- Will-o-wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt

Rotom-A allows you to better beat Gyarados, AgiliGross (your late-game nightmare) and replaces Gliscor as a Lucario/Electric Resist. Will-O-Wisp hurts pokemon like T-Tar that think they can switch in for free and is a good move to predict against switches. Rotom-A can also serve as a last resort check vs Gengar/Non-Scarf Latias. Even if Rotom-A gets pursuited by T-Tar, it allows Infernape or Gyarados to set up

To patch up the Lati weak, adding another steel or ScarfTar may help. By adding another steel in your team like Skarm or Scarf Jirachi, it allows you take Latias/any Mence with less fear. ScarfJirachi is also a nice revenger and cleaner. ScarfTar helps to almost permanently take out Latias out of the game.

Sorry, I would give you a better rate, but I got HW. Good Luck with the team
 
burnpsy said:
However, Stone Edge fails to OHKO either one after Intimidate, while ThunderPunch OHKOs Gyarados after Intimidate.
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its a damn sword dance infernape, you are suppose to start atacking after SD, and thunderpunch leave your infernape with big problems against mence, i sugest you really try stone edge just to see how much would help, another thing is that you will SD on the gyara switch in, because if infernape is the one switching into gyara (lol) then stone edge still ohko after SR. in short, you SD on the gyara switch, stone edge ohko, you switch into gyara, stone edge ohko, any atack followed by stone edge will ko gyara after SR since stone edge does about 65% and i think even fire punch does 10% on gyara.
 
LoveDestiny said:
*Stuff about how Salamence, Latias, Gyarados and Gengar rip me to shreds*
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Salamence and Gliscor both do indeed try to switch in on Gliscor. However, they get met with Taunt and a switch into my own Gyarados. Not only does this stop them from Dragon Dancing (and stops Gliscor from being set-up fodder, as you claimed it would be), but Gyarados gets rid of any ATK boost that they may have gotten, and forces them to retreat or stay in and take a Stone Edge. Plus, if that fails, I'm sure you've noticed how Flygon neatly handles both (Obviously, Outrage OHKOs Salamence, and Stone Edge OHKOs Gyarados after Stealth Rock).

I don't see Latias much, but I've noted that it doesn't particularly enjoy anything from Flygon (Outrage OHKOs). It also seems to hate Taunt when it tries to Calm Mind on the switch. Stone Edge (Hits for about 60% when coming from Gyarados), Meteor Mash (Hits for up to 78%) and Toxic don't leave it in good shape either. The issue has always been relatively minor.

I don't know what to say about Gengar, however. I've maybe faced two, so I have no clue how I would fare against it. I'll take your word for it about me being weak to it.

From my own conclusions as well as yours, I don't think I need Rotom-A. To be quite honest, I see Rotom-A as a far more obvious piece of set-up fodder than Gliscor is.

However, the Scarf Jirachi/Tyranitar may help quite a lot. It will most likely be Jirachi though, as Tyranitar hurts my Infernape and Gyarados too much with Sand Stream. I'll have to see what fit it in over. Probably Gliscor.

Do you have a problem with what I've said?

Lucalibur said:
its a damn sword dance infernape, you are suppose to start atacking after SD, and thunderpunch leave your infernape with big problems against mence, i sugest you really try stone edge just to see how much would help, another thing is that you will SD on the gyara switch in, because if infernape is the one switching into gyara (lol) then stone edge still ohko after SR. in short, you SD on the gyara switch, stone edge ohko, you switch into gyara, stone edge ohko, any atack followed by stone edge will ko gyara after SR since stone edge does about 65% and i think even fire punch does 10% on gyara.
Click to expand...

What you say is true, and I do OHKO them both if I use Swords Dance on the switch, but Salamence comes in after a KO most of the time, and I usually don't get a chance to Swords Dance unless I know they have to switch.

I'll try it anyways. You have a good point there.
 
Hello,

Quite solid team, I have just a few suggestions.
First, I would use Explosion on your metagross. It's your choice whether you drop Meteor Mas or Earthquake but you will need explosion to kill some threats. Without it DD Gyarados, Zapdos with HP Ice and offensive CM Suicune will run through your whole team.
Second, you should use a more defensively oriented EV spread on Starmie, as you rely on starmie to kill opposing Gyarados. Adamant Gyarados will outspeed and ohko your Starmie after 1 DD and with life orb easily using Earthquake or Stone Edge. Also your flygon's Stone Edge is a very shaky last resort against +1 Gyara. You should leave out all SpAtk evs and distribute them between HP and Def.
Even then I would suggest ThunderPunch over Stone Edge on Flygon. In most cases you will lose the game if your only revenge killer fails to ko a threat. if you lose 20% of your battles then... thats really a lot. Also Stone edge is not really needed on Flygon as Outrage hits most flying things almost as hard as SE.
On your Infernape however I would do it vice versa. Drop TPunch for Stone Edge because you can't afford to be stopped by each single Salamence and Dragonite you run into.
Also I think you forgot about the top 2 Nape counters out there: Starmie and Latias. Your team has not really a chance to kill latias for Napes sweep and relying on starmie to kill starmie doesn't sound very convincing. You could use CB Scizor over one of your other team members to deal with those 2 maybe over Gliscor because it doesn't really do much for your team now that you dropped your baton pass idea.

Hope this helped you. Good Luck !
 
I have gone over how DD Gyarados is not a threat several times over, so I won't repeat myself on that one. As for Zapdos, both instances of Stone Edge on the team send it packing after Stealth Rock. Further, several calculations show that Suicune simply doesn't have time to set-up and will simply get 2HKO'd.

Try to find a place where Gyara switches in without taking a huge dent or being 2HKO'd. You won't find one, barring Gliscor (which I'm theoretically removing for a Scarf Jirachi, due to other people's ideas). Starmie switching for a more defensive set would simply be too weak to be of use, espcially since it usually gets KO'd by other Starmie. Whether it sounds convincing or not is not the point. The point is that it works, since most Starmie only run enough speed EVs to outpace other Starmie who run a similar set, whoever hits first gets the KO, and most will leave in their Starmie while expecting it to be faster. Also, with my current EV spread, Gyarados fails to OHKO with either attack, even with Stealth Rock in play. Besides, my switch-in is Gyarados when they've already used Dragon Dance once.

EDIT: If you meant just to get rid of its SpA EVs, I need to run calcs on that.
EDIT2: After a few calcs, I found that it really doesn't hurt to maximize its Defense, so I'll go ahead and make that change.

While ThunderPunch leaves Flygon vulnerable to Gliscor, I'll make the change for both the reasons you've stated and because Jirachi will be added soon enough after some testing. I concur on Stone Edge as well.

Not that I expected you to read the thread's posts, but Jirachi can handle opposing Latias.

This should solve all of the problems you've mentioned.
 
Okay I'm glad my post helped you.
It was a good decision to run the defense evs on starmie and TPunch on Flygon because +1 Life Orb Gyarados will Always ohko starmie as well as Gyara with your old spread after Stealth Rocks. And still offensive Cune can tear your team apart. Both DD Gyara and Cune will have its opportunities to set up once, which will be enough to sweep. Those opportunities are Jirachi locked into any move besides U-Turn, Flygon locked into EQ in case of Gyarados. Cune will also set up vs Metagross without explosion.
And on Latias: You're right your Jirachi can handle it. But Latias can just switch out and come back later when Nape tries to sweep. You have to remember that jirachi is easily taken out by magnezone. Thus I suggested Scizor as it can easily take out Starmie and Latias with Pursuit/U-Turn. And if Rachi is gone nothing in your team can beat latias (provided Meta has taken severe prior damage or is even dead due to it being your lead).

Good Luck.
 
LFC Rulez said:
Okay I'm glad my post helped you.
It was a good decision to run the defense evs on starmie and TPunch on Flygon because +1 Life Orb Gyarados will Always ohko starmie as well as Gyara with your old spread after Stealth Rocks. And still offensive Cune can tear your team apart. Both DD Gyara and Cune will have its opportunities to set up once, which will be enough to sweep. Those opportunities are Jirachi locked into any move besides U-Turn, Flygon locked into EQ in case of Gyarados. Cune will also set up vs Metagross without explosion.
And on Latias: You're right your Jirachi can handle it. But Latias can just switch out and come back later when Nape tries to sweep. You have to remember that jirachi is easily taken out by magnezone. Thus I suggested Scizor as it can easily take out Starmie and Latias with Pursuit/U-Turn. And if Rachi is gone nothing in your team can beat latias (provided Meta has taken severe prior damage or is even dead due to it being your lead).

Good Luck.
Click to expand...

Flygon's Outrage OHKOs Standard Latias. So, Latias being an issue requires 3 specific team members out of commission. Seriously, the whole Latias issue is being blown out of proportion. >___>

Gyarados is forced out by every team member, barring the Steel-types (and, after a DD, Infernape. Gyarados can only come in if the Rocks aren't up). It's the same as Latias in terms of the fact that my opponent needs to get rid of several specific threats to said Pokemon before it's a problem.

As for Offensive Suicune after a Calm Mind... It gets 2HKO'd by Flygon's Outrage, Jirachi's ThunderPunch and Gyarados' +1 Stone Edge/EarthQuake, 3HKO'd by Metagross' EarthQuake, and OHKO'd by Infernape's +2 Close Combat. It only walls Starmie, simply for being my only Special Attacker. Everything else should be able to handle Suicune just fine. I'll add Explosion over EarthQuake just to be completely covered, but it's not completely necessary.

Also, anything can switch out against its counters unless it's weak to Pursuiters.
 
I will now make use of my one "24-hour Bump", as it's been five days.

The main issues have been Agility Metagross and SD Lucario. I'm also not too sure on Jirachi's moveset...
 
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