That was just a minor point people were making along the way. Her defenses, even when not invested in, are not awful. That means she can usually take an unboosted STAB neutral attack and not die outright, which can be handy when handling her checks.
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np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Yeah, there has been talk of defensive EV spreads for sweeping Manaphy, like what SJCrew put forward.
This is probably the most or 2nd most disputed set in this whole thread IMO, people like Phil are saying it's broken (I personally don't, it has way too many counters). I personally don't like it used it on a Stall team, though, as it doesn't really support the team in any kind of way (Let alone stall by itself). Rain Dance is usually more a liability than an asset for a Stall team (Unless you're running something like SubSeed Ludicolo), as opposing rain teams (Or even just Water Pokemon) would just go "Thank you very much" and bombard your team.
I feel I would be remiss if I didn't point out that Latias is a Pokemon with almost literally no downside. The Pokemon that are the most trouble for Latias, Tyranitar and Scizor, will both have to take massive damage to beat her. The Draco Meteor/Surf dilemma is well-known in terms of Timid Specs Latias, but I would like to point out that Draco Meteor alone actually 2HKOs Scizor much of the time after Stealth Rock damage, so in fact Scizor may lose to Latias anyway even if it predicts "correctly" when it switches in. Tyranitar (especially ScarfTar) is going to take a big hit switching in on even Draco Meteor (59.6% - 70.2% in the case of ScarfTar), so even if it "correctly" comes in on Draco Meteor instead of Surf and correctly chooses either Crunch or Pursuit to actually KO Latias, it has taken a minimum of 72% just to beat Latias, when Stealth Rock is taken into consideration. In other words, the best case scenario for beating Specs Latias using the most reliable Pokemon for beating Specs Latias requires the Pokemon to sacrifice a minimum of ~72% of its health, an unfortunate number in that Tyranitar will no longer be able to deal with Pokemon it will most likely be expected to deal with, such as Specs Jolteon. In other words, it is one thing to flippantly say "Tyranitar and Scizor beat Latias", it is another thing to actually do so in a real situation....
have the checks been distributed yet
On the other hand you could sac something and then pursuit the Latias with either TTar or Scizor. This is often what happens as well as thge situation you put forward. Furthermore Latias basically cripples itself after it KOs something against a good team as it is locked into either Surf, or -2 DM so it can be considered set up bait for Suicune, Mence, SD Scizor respectively. I agree Specs Latias hits extremely hard but I think its unrealistic to say it sweeps, support is hoowever up for discussion.
Revenge killing is not a viable argument for a Pokemon not being Uber. If you have to resort to sacrificing a Pokemon and then revenge killing Latias as your best mode to deal with it on a vast majority of teams, that alone stands testament to its Uber qualifications.iKitsune said:
lol, you do realize that when 1 pokemon kills...1 pokemon total, that's called breaking even, right?
That was the idea suggested...
And it didnt work for Garchomp because of the berries it could use. Haban would mean that a dragon type wouldn't revenge it, and Yache would mean ice moves wouldnt either.
Choice band weavile ohko's yachechomp with ice punch 100% of the time so not really. specs latias also ohkos habanchomp with draco meteor. If you have to lose a pokemon and resort to revenge killing then it's broken. Especially if it involves choice items that lock you into set up fodder moves.
No, seriously don't start this Garchomp bullshit again. Garchomp could be revenge killed only 80% of the time with SS active, and sandstorm was very little support, not to mention that it could always switch out in front of random ice shard users or faster dragons (basically Latias or random scarfers like Flygon), being able to come back later in the game to wreak havoc. Latias can do nothing to escape pursuit so yeah, she can kill something or severely weaken it with draco meteor, but then she's hopeless as long as your opponent has TTar, Scizor or pursuit Metagross. End of the story.
Reflect and substitute latias both escape pursuit kos, but no one has mentioned any defensive or support sets for her.
Why would you lead with draco meteor anyway when you can smash all the blatantly obvious switch ins to latias for 2hko's with surf anyway. They all lose to latias if she uses surf unless tyranitar wins the coin toss.
Why would you lead with draco meteor anyway when you can smash all the blatantly obvious switch ins to latias for 2hko's with surf anyway. They all lose to latias if she uses surf unless tyranitar wins the coin toss.
I was merely stating that this is as realistic a scenario as the one RZ pointed out.
lol, except if you could make a team of 6 Pokemon who could all guarantee a KO before going down, you would win every match.
Revenge killing is a flimsy argument against a Poke being Uber, that's true, but that by itself is something that could suggest that a Pokemon doesn't fit the Offensive characteristic. Latias get Pursuited, unlike Garchomp who could easily switch out and come back in later (Not to mention Sandstorm, Yache/Haban Berries). The Offensive Characteristic states a Pokemon can sweep a big portion of the opponent's team with little to no support. Killing something then getting Pursuited is not sweeping a big portion of the opponent's team. SpecsLatias is NOT a sweeper (Yeah, let's see her trying to sweep a team with her Special attack going -2 every turn). She can't guarrantee you a kill every time either.
For the record, I argued for Latias's Uber status based on the Support Characteristic.
I would think Latias falls under the Support characteristic much like Honchkrow in UU. It too is a very offensive based pokemon that is able to switch into a lot of threats (Nape, Tran, EQ, Elemental Attacks, etc) and is able to wall break effortlessly regardless of the attack it chooses (much like reach said above). This allows other pokemon to sweep without the threat of Scizor and Scarftar (Think non bullet punch Luke, Mixape, LO Starmie, Azelf, Salamence and many others). The fact that Latias severely damages and KOs just about everything else makes it even more ridiculous. It may not sweep on its own (although a late game Dragon Pulse/Surf sweep is not unheard of) but it really helps other pokemon capitalize on its wall breaking.
Because with reflect and substitute she can't run specs, meaning that she can't open holes into teams by just spamming draco meteors.
As far as I know we were talking about revenge killing, which means that TTar, Scizor, [insert other pursuiter], will be coming in after Latias faints something, so they can always survive whatever she throws at them and pursuit her to death.
But couldn't the same be said for Latios who was voted uber? I realize he has higher special attack than Latias, but both would die if the pursuiter came in after a kill.
Latias lacks the raw destructive 130 base SpA Latios had. Maybe that is why.
However, I really don't think dropping Latios down would be that detrimental, Latias outclasses it in every set but the specs set, but that is another story.
Funny fact, people were complaining about Latios' Momento Dual Screen sets.
(from what i've read)
Is it me, or do I find that people are not prepared for Latias other sets. The CM set can sweep once it's counters are out of the way. Something I find much more preferable than being instantly revenged killed when using specs.
(from what i've read)
Is it me, or do I find that people are not prepared for Latias other sets. The CM set can sweep once it's counters are out of the way. Something I find much more preferable than being instantly revenged killed when using specs.