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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Secondary Typing Discussion

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jc104 said:
I thought this was the idea. CAP 10 is supposed to get walled by Rotom and such unless it specialises in beating them by running an appropriate move.
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True, however, you cannot expect to easily deal with a Ghost type with non-STAB moves, although this is the point of CAP. And you assumed I meant specifically against Rotom. What if you wanted to counter Weavile (as silly as it sounds)? Heatran? More often than not, a Fighting type will rely on its STAB's to deal with these threats. If Rotom were to switch in, he would successfully "wall" some possible combinations, and eventually be defeated because of this. While indeed CAP10 should be one-sided in the succeed/fail category, we certainly don't want the succeed options and fail options to be greater or less than each other. This is why neutral damage is so important.

However, you have a point, and I'm not against Electric/Fighting in the first place. I just find this to be easily played around with.
 
I like the idea of Electric/Fighting. It's unique and has a few useful resistances, as I've seen my Scizor wreak absolute havoc on most of my opponents. A weakness to Psychic moves is a bit of a problem, but the main Psychic threats are Espeon and Alakazam, and those aren't very tough to take down IMO.
 
After reading the arguments, I've come to the conclusion that Electric/Poison is the way to go. Seems like a very nice defensive type.
 
I'm really like both No Secondary Typing and Water.

I really like having only one weakness for a Pokemon, however, as grass isn't as common of an attacking type, the resists to Water, Ice, Fire and the way to hit Ground types back is great.

So for now, I'm throwing my support behind Grass/Water.

On a side note, weight of a CAPmon is usually left up to flavor right? Grass Knot is one of the more common Grass moves, so it'd be interesting if this thing turned out Electric/Water and weighed less... Just a thought.
 
Electric wins W00t!

I feel that Electric/Grass would fit the concept quite well.

Why is this? First of all, you lose the Ground weakness. Even though it's predictable, I'll still admit it's crippling.

Second, you gain a few extra resists, losing only a Flying resist. A Flying resist is not as bad as a Flying weakness, as neutral hits aren't really considered useful by the metagame outside of "generally getting them instead of being resisted." Flying does not exactly do this.

Third, your combined STAB only works to really counter Bulky Waters. If you have to rely on coverage moves to take out the Pokemon you're meant to counter, you will be LESS likely to be able to take on Pokemon you aren't. Because this is only meant to take out a select Pokemon or a select group of similar Pokemon at a time, having STABs that only let it counter a single archetype of Pokemon when used in tandem makes the Pokemon fit the concept.

At the same time, you gain 3 significant weaknesses. (Poison is always outclassed in OU.) Now, you COULD argue this simply makes the Pokemon weaker, but I believe it fits the concept because it limits the maximum number of Pokemon CAP10 can take on at once. This Pokemon is intended to counter only a single Pokemon or role group of Pokemon (i.e. Bulky Waters, Offensive Dragons, Steels, etc.) and if it has to make up for more than one common weakness that won't surprise it, it will be less capable of taking on Pokemon it wasn't meant to. Because the point is to make it able to counter only a select threat or class of threats at a time, then having multiple weaknesses to take care of makes it more likely to only counter a single threat or a single group of similar threats than if it had only one or a few weaknesses.

Because Electric/Grass only lets us counter a select group of mons at a time while giving it tools to be able to counter things (no Ground weakness, water and grass resists, retained Steel resist,) it is INTENDED to counter, I feel that Electric/Grass be the best possible typing for CAP10.
 
Based on what's been discussed so far, I kinda supporting either Electric/Water, Electric/Poison, and Mono-Electric. Bugmaniacbob and DrkSlay's arguments greatly influenced my decision towards supporting those typings.
 
I really like Electric/Poison.

a variety of useful resistances (Fighting, Bug, Electric, Steel) and it's only big weakness can easily be alleviated by Levitate/Magnetic Rise. I also would think it would be fast enough to outspeed most slower EQ/EP users (like Dragonite, Swampert, Metagross and Bronzong), as well as the faster (DD Sala, Aero, Scarftran, Flygon) with a boost.

Also, since it's only meant to counter one (or a few similar) Pokemon at a time, situational or limited-use items (Shuca Berry, Focus Sash) could come in handy, especially if it is made physically bulky.
 
Now... for the comparision time.

Mono-Electric:
Pros:
Only 1 Weakness, less than any other type combination involving Electric
Lack of a Secondary STAB will mean CAP 10 doesn't run T-Bolt/STAB2/Coverage/Coverage, it will run T-Bolt, and 3 coverage moves, or maybe even some support moves like Thunder Wave, to soft counter.

Cons:
No brilliant Resistances, except possibly Steel [Bullet Punch Resistances is nice], and Electric [Although, STAB v STAB = NVE]
Lack of a Secondary STAB could make it hard to actually hit things hard enough.
Lack of useful resistances may make switching in difficult.

Electric/Water
Pros:
Gains the ability to threaten STAB Earthquake users, like Gliscor
Water is a solid STAB, with good neutral coverage
Almost certain to get Ice Beam, I don't think that there are any water types who get TM's, who miss Ice Beam.
Gains Resistances to Fire and Ice, two common attacking types

Cons:
Thunderbolt/Surf/Ice Beam/Coverage [Probobly Hidden Power]... Sounds like Starmie with a useful second STAB.
Gains weaknesses to Grass, and Neutrality to Electric.
Water type's done to death
Oh, hi Lanturn... but, you're UU, so it's not as bad as a certain other type listed.

Electric/Fighting
Pros:
Stealth Rock Resist
Gains Resists to Dark, Bug, and Rock, all semi-useful [But not massivly]
Will probobly take the thus unexplored [Sucessfully] route of a physical Electric type
Only gains weaknesses to uncommon types.

Cons:
Electric Attack/Fighting Attack/Stone Edge/Coverage will be it's moveset.
Does nothing to counter most thingss with Earthquake. Salamance, Gyarados, Swampert, and Gliscor will all laugh at CAP 10.

Electric/Poison
Pros:
Useless 2nd STAB will make the viable movepool more diverse
Gains Fighting Resist [Only noteworthy]
Gains Immunity to Poision/Toxic Status

Cons:
x4 Earthquake Weakness screams 'I NEED LEVITATE!'
Earthquakers still laugh at CAP10, except Rotom joins the fray as well, being able to shrug off the STABS, and Shadow Ball CAP10 to death.

Electric/Flying
Pros:
Poor, but useable, 2nd STAB will free up a moveslot
Earthquake Immunity
Immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes [Without Gravity]

Cons:
Oh Hi Zapdos!
Seriously, look at Zapdos, from what we've said about the likly build [Somewhat bulky], we'll just be remodelling Zapdos.
Stealth Rock Weak
Ice Weak
Rock Weak

Forgive me if I forgot any discussed typing.

Poision isn't as good as other make out. x4 Earthquake weakness NEEDS Levitate, or will fail, and, it's resistances, although larger in number, have less that are actually useful compared to Water [Ice + Fire resists > Fighting and Electric]

I'm still leaning towards Electric/Water or Mono-Electric

Surprised no-one's uttered 'Dragon' in either thread so far, we all know Dragon's Neutrlity, and Resists. That said... Electric/Dragon = Cyclohm
 
Does nothing to counter most thingss with Earthquake. Salamance, Gyarados, Swampert, and Gliscor will all laugh at CAP 10.
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This is not a con. CAP 10, assuming it gets a wide ranging movepool, can easily exploit the 4x weaknesses of these pokemon. CAP 10 would have to adapt to counter them, which is the point. Also, gyarados will get OHKOed by any STAB electric move. It can have levitate too by the way.
 
Raikaria said:
Forgive me if I forgot any discussed typing.


Electric/Poison
Pros:
Useless 2nd STAB will make the viable movepool more diverse
Gains Fighting Resist [Only noteworthy]
Gains Immunity to Poision/Toxic Status

Cons:
x4 Earthquake Weakness screams 'I NEED LEVITATE!'
Earthquakers still laugh at CAP10, except Rotom joins the fray as well, being able to shrug off the STABS, and Shadow Ball CAP10 to death.

Poision isn't as good as other make out. x4 Earthquake weakness NEEDS Levitate, or will fail, and, it's resistances, although larger in number, have less that are actually useful compared to Water [Ice + Fire resists > Fighting and Electric]
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Grass and Bug were mentioned, but those suck compared to what else has been put up... you're fine.

I don't think it would be completely accurate to say that Electric-Poison NEEDS Levitate-- It's already been mentioned that Heatran functions just fine with the same 4x Ground weakness, and lots of other things (Scizor, Gyarados, Swampert, Gliscor and every OU Dragon not named Latias) work just fine despite their own 4x weaknesses. Same as with all of these guys, the 4x weakness is remedied by having teammates who resist it (OR by using Levitate).

That is to say, I think Levitate will definitely be one of CAP-10's abilities (assuming Electric-Poison typing), but it doesn't have to be the ONLY one. Also, we don't know that Rotom laughs at CAP-10 until we decide what its stats are and whether or not it gets any potent Dark or Ghost moves.
 
Raikaria said:
Poision isn't as good as other make out. x4 Earthquake weakness NEEDS Levitate, or will fail, and, it's resistances, although larger in number, have less that are actually useful compared to Water [Ice + Fire resists > Fighting and Electric]
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I completely disagree with Ice + Fire being much more valuable than Fighting + Electric, or even just Fighting. Fire and Ice STAB users are generally weak to Stealth Rock and hinders their usability. Syclant, Weavile, and Mamoswine are the powerful Ice users of OU and Infernape, Pyroak, and Heatran the only Fire types. Non-STAB users' hits (Celebi's HP-Fire and Swampert's Ice Beam for example) tend to be weak unless they hit SE.

Mamoswine carries STAB Earthquake so it will still be a problem, but Weavile would be easy to wall with Water/Electric. Or Poison/Electric. Or Bug/Electric. Or Fighting/Electric. Weavile isn't hard to wall with decent Defense as long as it can't score an SE hit and even then it's not extremely threatening. Syclant still has STAB Bug to work with so it won't have too hard of a time but you will have a slightly easier time switching in with prediction. Infernape carries Grass Knot and Pyroak has STAB Wood Hammer/Leaf Storm so they still hit Water/Electric hard and Heatran has Earth Power so the only advantage gained with the Water secondary type is a STAB answer to these threats though Pyroak only takes neutral.

Weavile can't do anything to Poison/Electric as well since it doesn't hit SE and resists Low Kick/Brick Break. Mamoswine has Earthquake so it can deal with a non-Levitating variant. Syclant's Bug STAB is resisted so it's in the same boat as W/E. Infernape is so much easier to wall it's not funny since one could just focus on Sp.D and call it good. Unlike W/E, Pyroak can only hit neutral with either of it's two STABs and is forced to use EQ or another measure while P/E typing has STAB Poison to dish out damage. Heatran, as before, has Earth Power. There is very little difference, W/E can deal with Scarf Heatran generally better where as P/E handles Infernape and Pyroak more effectively. There are not only more Fighting types than both Fire and Ice in OU, but they are much bigger threats that would be prime targets to be countered where as Ice and Fire are generally easy to deal with anyways and the ability Thick Fat gives both those resistances anyways. Losing an extremely valuable Fighting resist for two resistances which could be gained via ability isn't really something I would support.

I think it goes without saying any secondary type that doesn't resist Ground will more than likely warrant Levitate as an ability. Otherwise it can't hand threats like Gliscor, Salamence, Hippowdon, Mamoswine, Flygon, etc. The list goes on and on. This isn't exactly a support of types like Grass or Bug, it's just a point and something to expect for those who take stabs at CAP10's potential EQ weakness.
 
After reading through some arguements, I have sided with Mono-Electric, though I have no problems with Fighting, or Water.

A single weakness to Ground is greatly appreciated, even if Earthquake is the most commonly used move in the game. By giving the CAP an ability to help with this threat, or by giving it high HP or Defense stats, Mono-Electric will be able to take it without much notice.

As for other possibilities, Poison could work well, but only if we give the CAP levitate, which would move away from the purpose of a Utility Counter by forcing a specific ability rather than a choice of abilities for specific pokemon.

Types I am Completely Against: Dragon, Fire, Rock, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Normal
 
Raikaria said:
Electric Attack/Fighting Attack/Stone Edge/Coverage will be it's moveset.
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not of that is based on any facts; you're just making a rash assumption. we can give this Pokemon any move it needs in order to do its job; it having a large movepool which offers a wide range of customization is not only incredibly likely, but pretty much a requirement. I've said it before in past threads, and I'll say it again; Typing has no impact on what moves it can get.
 
Raikaria said:
No brilliant Resistances, except possibly Steel [Bullet Punch Resistances is nice]
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Define "brilliant resistances" or else this is not a valid point.
Raikaria said:
x4 Earthquake Weakness screams 'I NEED LEVITATE!'
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Firstly, Heatran has been cited as a 4x EQ weak pokemon that manages just fine. Secondly, outside of Heatran's Earth Power, the only Ground-type move that gets used is Earthquake, and anything that didn't run Earth Power before would probably not have any business running it over Earthquake or indeed any business dealing with CAP10 in the first place. Now, can you think of another way of reducing Earthquake's damage? Because I can! I won't post it here though because it could be interpreted as poll-jumping.

Also, considering that the concept lends itself more to a DEFENSIVE pokemon as we discussed in the concept assessment, STAB is virtually irrelevant. Similarly, just because CAP10 might end up with the same typing as another pokemon doesn't mean we're going to end up recreating that pokemon. Saying we're just going to end up cloning Zapdos/Lanturn/whatever is invalid.
 
Objection said:
Hey, I got a novel idea. How about we actually specify which weaknesses are acceptable and which ones aren't and explain why? Considering that, come playtesting, lots of pokemon are gonna start running moves specifically to beat CAP10 since that's basically what happens when a new threat enters a metagame, I don't see why, for example, a weakness to Dark would be better than a weakness to Fighting. For your convenience, I've even given a list of all the types CAP10 could end up being weak to.
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Well, I'll give this a shot.

Bug--Bug is not terrible, as very few things run bug as coverage and fewer have STAB. However, U-turn weak means we lose a fair bit of health switching into, say, Jirachi's U-turn, while our opponent gets to bring in a counter. Bug weak is to be avoided.
Dark--Dark is rare as a coverage move, but Pursuit is worrisome. Dark weak should be avoided.
Dragon--Dragon weak is unacceptable. it is impossible to counter Dragons with it.
Fighting--Far too many things run fighting as coverage, and several Pokemon attack with high power fighting STAB. Fighting weak is very bad.
Fire--Fire is also an extremely popular coverage move, and it usually comes in the form of high power Fire Blasts. Very bad weakness.
Ghost--Ghost is really only used as a STAB type. It would make countering Rotom-A or Gengar harder, but that's about it. Ghost weak is acceptable.
Grass--While grass is a poor attacking type, it often shows up as a coverage type due to the many bulky waters. Not a great weakness, but it'll do.
Ground--Ground weakness is really unacceptable. People are talking about playing around it, but you're talking about playing around being hit SE by the most common coverage move in the entire game, which many people are very willing to use anticipating a switch. Really, by choosing Electric, it seems Levitate is inevitable.
Ice--Bad, as ice is very popular. Definitely a weakness to avoid.
Poison--Only STAB users would ever think to use it, and even then, it's not a good choice. Acceptable weakness.
Psychic--Psychic has a ton of resistors in OU, including a completely immune Ttar. Psychich would only ever be used as STAB, and several STAB Psychic users are Pursuit weak. Choice locking yourself into a Psychic move is extremely risky, as it gives things like Ttar, Meta, and Jirachi a free turn and a free setup. Psychic seems an acceptable weakness.
Rock--SR and popular coverage move weak. Bad weakness.
Water--Every bulky water uses its water STAB. Since Electric STAB is a good way to counter Water types, we should avoid having a Water weak.

So, in conclusion.

Acceptable
Psychic
Ghost
Grass

To be avoided
Dark
Water
Bug
Ice

Very Bad
Fire
Fighting
Ground
Rock
Dragon

From this, I would say that Levitate is practically a given, and given that, it seems Poison, Fighting, Water, and No Secondary Type all manage to keep weaknesses in the acceptable range.
 
To be honest, I'd be happy with Mono-Electric, Electric/Grass or Electric/Fighting.

While they aren't the most powerful-seeming combinations in the game... I'd like to see something either mono-typed for a change or a new combination. I support an earlier comment, made by Umbreon Dan, that Thick Fat could remove Ice/Fire weakness of Grass, leaving us with Bug/ Poison weakness, neither of which are hugely popular. That is true, and could be used well.

I just don't want to give people the excuse to moan about an existing typing anymore - the AntiSteel comments were stupid after two pages, and just out of this world ridiculous by the end of the Primary Typing Poll Part 1. I know it will generally happen, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Countering-wise, of the three types, Electric/Fighting or Electric/Water remain the best dual-typing Pkmn, if people do not like Electric/Normal.
 
Um, how does Fighting qualify as Very Bad while keeping weaknesses in the acceptable range?

Anyway, for this, Fighting would provide a great excuse for bulk while simultaneously providing decent STAB. I think fast and bulky is what we want, so Electric and Fighting would blend well. Add in there only being two weaknesses, and some decent STAB, but with lower attacking power, and we may just yet have a Utility Counter: add in access to a few Elemental punches/fangs, and some Status, and:
ThunderPunch/Toxic/Ice Punch/Brick Break
Close Combat/Ice Beam/Fire Fang/ThunderPunch
Thunder Wave/Thunderbolt/Earth Power/Aura Sphere
Or other combinations would have some great effects.

But that isn't Utility Counter, is it? More like "Jack of all Trades." Thus, I'm voting now against my favorite of Fighting.

Grass, however, has potential. It could counter Swampert with Leaf Storm, Gyarados with Discharge/etc, Salamence/Flygon/Dragonite with Ice Beam/etc, could use Hidden Power to customize: Ground to beat Heatran/Aggron/etc.
Alternate moves, such as Dark or Ghost attacks could further the customization. A great way to limit it would be to require that the attacks come from a designated parent, no "any egg move with Smeargle."
 
The thing about the typing for this Pokemon is that people seem to be under the assumption that having virtually no weaknesses and no resists is a good way to go about this, when in reality it's actually counter-productive. The metagame is currently centered more around really powerful STAB attackers than coverage attackers for the most part. There is a reason why threats like Lucario and Heatran are getting gameplay over threats like Electivire. For this reason, I think that typings that focus on getting us as few weaknesses as possible at THIS stage in the project are counter-productive, and that we should instead be looking for types to combine with Electric to produce a typing with some nice resistances and maybe one or two weaknesses. For these reasons, I'm very skeptical of typings that provide little to no additional resistances, even if they don't really have that many drawbacks.
 
Raikaria said:
Poision isn't as good as other make out. x4 Earthquake weakness NEEDS Levitate, or will fail, and, it's resistances, although larger in number, have less that are actually useful compared to Water [Ice + Fire resists > Fighting and Electric]
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*cough* Magnezone *cough*

I mean, come on, Magnezone is basically designed to take on pokemon that carry around moves that it despises all the time! Magnet Rise works great despite Magnezone's crappy speed. And before you make the argument that that would take up one of his move slots, whats so bad about that? We're designing a pokemon that is mean to counter one or two pokemon at a time so the prospect of limiting it's move slots to counter a crippling weakness is fine.

That being said if this pokemon were to get said typing and said move people would be expecting Magnet Rise and would probably try to get ahead of the game with a preemptive strike, which could be used in CAP10's favor.
 
I'm in favor of Electric/Poison; people keep on saying that earthquake is a problem, but it one of the only ground type attacks used, allowing it to be easily removed (magnet rise, imprison, and levitate), or you can just predict when it won't be used. Also, remember it can have two abilities (Though I would rather have attacks that remove earthquake than levitate). My point is earthquake can easily be worked around, if you think of creative ways to do so
 
Electric/Grass has resists to Water, Grass, Electric, and Steel. Water is a common STAB, and Latias likes it too. Grass may be more coverage than STAB (Breloom and Celebi being the only OU attackers [Roserade acts more as a lead than a long-term attacker in OU,] who get STAB on it,) but Grass Knot is one of the most popular coverage moves in the game, to the point that it is still important. Electric is not very useful, save for beating other CAP10, Zapdos, and Rotom, but it's still a well-used type. Steel is obvious: Scizor, Jirachi, and Metagross are major threats in this metagame.

And having several common weaknesses means it will simply have to be more customized, thus fulfilling the concept of a Pokemon that can counter nigh anything, but only one or a few similar threats at a time. Besides, no EQ weakness, right?
 
Gerbalnavershk said:
I'm in favor of Electric/Poison; people keep on saying that earthquake is a problem, but it one of the only ground type attacks used, allowing it to be easily removed (magnet rise, imprison, and levitate), or you can just predict when it won't be used. Also, remember it can have two abilities (Though I would rather have attacks that remove earthquake than levitate). My point is earthquake can easily be worked around, if you think of creative ways to do so
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To add on to this, Earthquake is also not effective at all against Salamence, Gyarados, etc. So even if CAP10 is uber weak to it, increasing the usage just means more room for these beasts to set up. Maybe that will help curb spammage, or at least provide nice defensive synergy.
 
I don't really see Grass doing what Beej said, which was right on. You lose Electric's resistance to Flying and lose Grass' resistance to Ground. You lose two resistances and add... let's see... Fire, Bug, Poison, and Ice making a total of 4 weaknesses. Thick Fat only helps Grass types so much and seems like a waste of an ability when you could have better typing and then use Thick Fat to add resistances. And you're trading it for 2 resistances. This is counter-productive imo.

Types that don't affect resistances that Electric has would be the way to go and vice versa. Water, Fighting, and Poison all do this well out of the most popular choices. Water evens out the Electric resistance and Fighting evens out Flying. Poison just adds to the Ground weakness. Each type also only gives a single additional weakness.
 
Besides, even if you DON'T have Levitate with the Electric-Poison typing, it's like Beej says-- it has to have weaknesses. =\ Otherwise it's counter-productive. Personally, I think that the Electric-Poison and Electric-Water typings best fit what Beej is saying we should do... assuming I'm correctly understanding what he said.
 
Aura Guardian said:
Um, how does Fighting qualify as Very Bad while keeping weaknesses in the acceptable range?
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I think this is just a matter of slightly confusing wording, Aura Guardian. He was listing "Weakness to Types by Severity," that is, "Being weak to Ghost is acceptable, while being weak to Fighting is unacceptable." Then, from that info, he was proceeding to describe the Secondary Typing choices that keep weaks/resists closer to the "Acceptable" end of things.

Thus, his Secondary Typing choices (Poison, Water, Fighting, and None) all, in his opinion, maintain weaknesses that are acceptable.
Elec/Poison: Ground 4x, Psychic 2x (one doubled Very Bad, one Acceptable)
Elec/Water: Ground 2x, Grass 2x (one Very Bad, one Acceptable)
Elec/Fight: Ground 2x, Psychic 2x (one Very Bad, one Acceptable)
Electric: Ground 2x (just one Very Bad)

I'm noticing the common thread here is, "Ground is meh, we can work around it or just suck it up." I generally agree with that line of thinking, but I'm sure there are others who would prefer to simply mitigate it outright with other typing choices.

I don't think Poison is viable. I just don't. A 4x weakness to one of the most commonly-used coverage types in the game? It hurts Poison's viability a lot, particularly since that makes countering certain powerhouses significantly more difficult (I'm looking at you, Mamoswine, Hippowdon, and Swampert). Remember--Ground-types will be immune to CAP10's primary STAB, and if you add in a 4x weakness to STAB Ground moves, it's only going to make things worse (Ground types would also resist the Poison STAB!). The Psychic weak is not a big deal, but doesn't help Poison's case. Resists to Bug and Fighting are sweet, to be sure, and Grass/Poison resists are nifty nifty (if not terribly special). I don't, however, see the point of being Toxic-immune; CAP10's purpose is to be a 'utility counter,' you whip it out when its target is in sight, and stow it away once that threat is gone. Unless you and your opponent play a massive cat-and-mouse game, there's no need to have CAP10 shrug off nasties like Toxic--and besides, with the well-known prevalence of entry hazards, cat-and-mouse games are dangerous in and of themselves regardless of Toxic-immunity. </endrant> :P

Fighting subtype gives three proven-useful resistances (Dark, Bug, Rock) that reduce the effectiveness of common moves, common pokes, or both. True, it still loses a resist to Flying (though I doubt it would be possible to find a type that didn't drop at least *one* resist) and gains a weakness to Psychic, but that seems a fair bargain. There's also the offensive possibilities that Fighting opens up--a counter has to be able to hit decently well if it wants to succeed, right?

Water subtype is strong as well. Trading the admittedly-useful Electric resist for Water, Fire, Ice, and a double Steel resist? Yes please. The Grass weakness is roughly on-par with Fighting's Psychic weakness; yes, it's a hole, but it isn't a big one and I'd hardly call it threatening. Although GameFreak conventions mean little as far as CAP is concerned, a Water subtype would effectively guarantee Ice-type moves in the final spread, which is a minor plus. A solid subtyping, though IMO not quite as solid as Fighting subtype.

Bug and Flying deserve honorable mentions for consideration, but I think they introduce a few too many problematic weaknesses to be reliable. Each one mitigates the Ground resist, sure (Bug neutralizes, Flying immunizes), but each also drops a potentially-useful resist (Bug drops the Flying resist, Flying drops the Electric resist) which isn't bad but isn't good either. Both Bug and Flying add two nasty weaknesses: first, Fire or Ice respectively, and secondly Rock, which could be crippling. (SR-weak, and opening up avenues for Stone Edge and other nasty surprisies? I'll pass.)

I still favor Electric/Fighting, but would have no problems with Electric/Water.
 
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