The thing is you usually don't come out with a sash now because ice-shard lass is becoming more and more popular
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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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The thing is you usually don't come out with a sash now because ice-shard lass is becoming more and more popular
Hariyama. Beats Ambipom and Froslass, 2HKOs Uxie with Payback. Protect/Close Combat/Payback/Bullet Punch
This is the sort of thing that irritates me when people talk about "beating" Froslass. You don't ever "beat" it in the sense that it can't set up on you unless you use Taunt Pursuit Ambipom. With something that doesn't set up permanent effects such as Screens or weather it's a little different since all you're trying to do is "stall them" from setting it up. With Froslass it just needs 1-2 turns somewhere to set up.
Not that I'm saying Froslass actually beats Hariyama, but anything that lets it set up at all is really not "beating" it. At least it doesn't give you an advantage.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60472
I finally got a chance to play with Venomoth (it was mentioned a few pages back) and as of now my favorite set is Toxic / Sleep Powder / Roost / Bug Buzz @ Insect Plate. I was actually running Life Orb for a day until I realized that that is extremely dumb. anyways, Sleep Powder + Bug Buzz are awesome and Bug Buzz kills so many frail things it's ridiculous. Toxic is for bulky stuff like Milotic and Chansey that you can't immediately kill (Pursuit Absol + Toxic + Chansey = Venomoth is happy) and Roost lets you stall a bit with Toxic (ok, Milotic's Surf does 50% but hey it's losing more and more HP every turn and I'm not losing any so whatever!) and its a cool move. I deliberated a bit about whether to use a secondary coverage move but so far I haven't really regret not running another one; Psychic would have been my choice probably to hit Venusaur a bit harder but the power drop isn't too noticeable assuming an Insect Plate, and Life Orb is just really harsh on Venomoth's survivability. oh yeah Venomoth is frail as fuck =( but it's still fun to use!
I also used the Slowking + Steelix combo a bit recently and apart from the obvious Grass types it has some problems with Ghosts that know Will-O-Wisp and Azumarill (Leftovers Double-Edge does a bit too much to Slowking -- 41.1% - 48.5% -- even with a bunch of Defense EVs). CM LO HP Water Raikou is also kind of a bitch especially because Raikou is "supposed" to be the Raikou counter.
capefeather I remember losing to RP LO Regice back in August when my team was Uxie / Donphan / Honchkrow / Yanmega / Milotic / Roserade or something -.- that was the best anti-metagame gimmick I've ever seen rofl
by the way do you guys actually all think that the Dugtrio = potential suspect arguments were an April Fool's joke? because I'm standing by everything I posted; dunno about franky. ▲
I finally got a chance to play with Venomoth (it was mentioned a few pages back) and as of now my favorite set is Toxic / Sleep Powder / Roost / Bug Buzz @ Insect Plate. I was actually running Life Orb for a day until I realized that that is extremely dumb. anyways, Sleep Powder + Bug Buzz are awesome and Bug Buzz kills so many frail things it's ridiculous. Toxic is for bulky stuff like Milotic and Chansey that you can't immediately kill (Pursuit Absol + Toxic + Chansey = Venomoth is happy) and Roost lets you stall a bit with Toxic (ok, Milotic's Surf does 50% but hey it's losing more and more HP every turn and I'm not losing any so whatever!) and its a cool move. I deliberated a bit about whether to use a secondary coverage move but so far I haven't really regret not running another one; Psychic would have been my choice probably to hit Venusaur a bit harder but the power drop isn't too noticeable assuming an Insect Plate, and Life Orb is just really harsh on Venomoth's survivability. oh yeah Venomoth is frail as fuck =( but it's still fun to use!
I also used the Slowking + Steelix combo a bit recently and apart from the obvious Grass types it has some problems with Ghosts that know Will-O-Wisp and Azumarill (Leftovers Double-Edge does a bit too much to Slowking -- 41.1% - 48.5% -- even with a bunch of Defense EVs). CM LO HP Water Raikou is also kind of a bitch especially because Raikou is "supposed" to be the Raikou counter.
capefeather I remember losing to RP LO Regice back in August when my team was Uxie / Donphan / Honchkrow / Yanmega / Milotic / Roserade or something -.- that was the best anti-metagame gimmick I've ever seen rofl
by the way do you guys actually all think that the Dugtrio = potential suspect arguments were an April Fool's joke? because I'm standing by everything I posted; dunno about franky. ▲
You're using an anti-lead, so you should assume that the team is an offensive team that wants that momentum right off the bat. Getting momentum for an anti-lead is winning in my books, as from that point forward froslass will have a hard time coming back in.
@ heysup
There is nothing you can do about it, they are called suicide leads, they will set up on you almost most of the time. Look at Aerodactly and Azelf in OU, they set up Stealth Rocks most of the time, yet Metagross is considered beating it. You'll never beat Froslass with a sash unless you use a Sleep Powder lead (no one fast enough) so you'll have to resort to Scarf.
@ whistle
nah its not a joke at all, Dugtrio is potential suspect. believe it whistle ▲
There is nothing you can do about it, they are called suicide leads, they will set up on you almost most of the time. Look at Aerodactly and Azelf in OU, they set up Stealth Rocks most of the time, yet Metagross is considered beating it. You'll never beat Froslass with a sash unless you use a Sleep Powder lead (no one fast enough) so you'll have to resort to Scarf.
@ whistle
nah its not a joke at all, Dugtrio is potential suspect. believe it whistle ▲
I've been impressed with Sneasel after playing against it afew times (albeit the same person a couple times). A super fast taunt, Fake Out and counter means you pretty much beat every physical lead with proper prediction, and Taunt+ Pursuit makes Froslass cry.
I just wanted to comment on how terrible I think the UU metagame is right now. Experimenting is fun, but it won't land you consistent wins, which is what I've been aiming for lately. I've made about a dozen teams so far, and the only one that yields any long-term success is my Spike-stacking team, since it maximizes coverage and punishes switch-ins so hard, there's really no point in trying anything else.
Most good players I've seen either run Spike-stacking teams with like, three Ghosts, or a Raikou-centric team, which abuses the fact that his checks are inconsistent and incredibly easy to beat (this is BL material, guys). I'm skeptical of anyone saying they've been using such-and-such NUs to great success since it's become quite clear to me that UU ladder is laden with terrible players and that shit won't fly against anyone half competent.
If you're not running Dugtrio/Chansey/Registeel, don't expect to beat Raikou. If you're facing a Spike-staking team, you'd better have some hyper offensive strategy to beat it or just plain give up. I've never been a huge fan of UU (it's just easier to win than in OU), but this is probably the most frustrating stage I've played so far.
Most good players I've seen either run Spike-stacking teams with like, three Ghosts, or a Raikou-centric team, which abuses the fact that his checks are inconsistent and incredibly easy to beat (this is BL material, guys). I'm skeptical of anyone saying they've been using such-and-such NUs to great success since it's become quite clear to me that UU ladder is laden with terrible players and that shit won't fly against anyone half competent.
If you're not running Dugtrio/Chansey/Registeel, don't expect to beat Raikou. If you're facing a Spike-staking team, you'd better have some hyper offensive strategy to beat it or just plain give up. I've never been a huge fan of UU (it's just easier to win than in OU), but this is probably the most frustrating stage I've played so far.
I'm somewhat inclined to agreeing but it's still UU. It's still by far the best tier to play in. I especially agree with your last comment. Raikou is waaaaaay to powerful and overcentralizes the metagame in an unhealthy way.
Hopefully we can make UU even better with the future votings.
Raikou? I've seen Swellow in the same role more often. All the common counters are taken out by Dugtrio rather easily and spikes takes care of many of the checks.
If you use Tailwind and then switch out, you're left with only one turn of boosted speed. Pretty crappy.
In UU, Swellow, Moltres, and Scyther can all use Tailwind and then attack...but neither of them really need extra speed. Drifblim and Altaria could use speed, but then can both boost it via other methods and neither of them become that deadly with just boosted speed anyway.
The only real viable method imo is to do Tailwind > U-Turn, and thankfully that move goes hand-in-hand with tailwind users. You still only get one turn with boosted speed, but since you see your opponent's Pokemon once you U-turn out, you get free shot at them.
In UU, Swellow, Moltres, and Scyther can all use Tailwind and then attack...but neither of them really need extra speed. Drifblim and Altaria could use speed, but then can both boost it via other methods and neither of them become that deadly with just boosted speed anyway.
The only real viable method imo is to do Tailwind > U-Turn, and thankfully that move goes hand-in-hand with tailwind users. You still only get one turn with boosted speed, but since you see your opponent's Pokemon once you U-turn out, you get free shot at them.
lol three Ghosts.
The only thing we can do is abuse these broken strategies to the point that something clicks in UU voter's heads "Oh shit so Froslass/Raikou" are broken. That is practically only possible with a miracle though, but I'm feeling lucky!
That SJCrew post seems awfully embellished to me - I don't think I've seen a team with more than two ghosts (except for that guy running ghost mono, lol), and I haven't had particular problems with Raikou unless he happens to be a hidden last and I'm already losing in spite of never using Chansey in UU, not using Registeel since Yanmega was banned, and not using Dugtrio since last period. That said, the metagame right now is certainly subideal, though for as much as Raikou isn't a stallbreaker it is a nice tool for dealing with certain combination of Pokemon I'm not super enthusiastic about losing since Stall is obnoxious enough as is.
I've seen both Loki and Thund independently mention Milotic for weakening stall, which I think would be a hell of a good start. I have not used a defensive water Pokemon at any point this period, so it's like it's quite the metagame glue many people seem to think it is (fuckin' Kabutops and that /Water I'm mostly not using ruining my no waters claim).
Froslass is a different animal, though. I've never had the opportunity to vote on it (my deviation fell out of range two periods ago since the period ended during exam time), and while I'm still not sure anything it does is particularly BL-worthy I'd certainly prefer a metagame without it (and Dugtrio, for that matter). Basically every team I run I have an anti-Froslass lead (as anti-Froslass as "you still get one layer but I consider that a win" can be, anyway) that I wouldn't even consider using as a lead if Froslass wasn't in the game which kind of frustrates me. I don't even _care_ if I lose to other common leads as long as I get her, and that... worries me.
I've seen both Loki and Thund independently mention Milotic for weakening stall, which I think would be a hell of a good start. I have not used a defensive water Pokemon at any point this period, so it's like it's quite the metagame glue many people seem to think it is (fuckin' Kabutops and that /Water I'm mostly not using ruining my no waters claim).
Froslass is a different animal, though. I've never had the opportunity to vote on it (my deviation fell out of range two periods ago since the period ended during exam time), and while I'm still not sure anything it does is particularly BL-worthy I'd certainly prefer a metagame without it (and Dugtrio, for that matter). Basically every team I run I have an anti-Froslass lead (as anti-Froslass as "you still get one layer but I consider that a win" can be, anyway) that I wouldn't even consider using as a lead if Froslass wasn't in the game which kind of frustrates me. I don't even _care_ if I lose to other common leads as long as I get her, and that... worries me.
While banning Milotic would definitely weaken stall, it would also deliver a crushing blow to balance and some bulky offense since Milo is such a multi purpose wall. And while it certainly walls a ton of pokemon, Im not sure how broken it is since it has tons and tons of checks and counters, and it would be difficult to convince voters, Jabba & Reachzero (we still havent gotten Froslass banned, which should be tons easier than Milotic). Although Milotic has been nominated a couple of times before, nothing ever came of it.
I'd sooner nominate Registeel. That thing just sits there and paralyzes everything.
Isn't Registeel a Ground-type magnet? Rhyperior... Dugtrio... Donphan... Torterra?
You could also Hitmonlee since it gets Limber...
Ehh, Milotic's an electric magnet. "Sitting there and paralyzing everything" is a massive oversimplification, but it's probably the best wall in UU.
Man, you should have seen some of the semifinals tour matches. Everyone packed a bunch of Ghosts to make sure their Spikes stayed up and proceeded to just annoy the shit out of your team. I got a taste of that last week, but the influx of UU newbies is diminishing my frustration.
Fact, save for maybe Milotic, but I wouldn't put "broken" or "suspect" anywhere in its assessment.
By that note we might aswell nominate bulky-assed Clefable, Slowbro/king and Miltank who do the same thing. T-wave then replenish via slacking themselves off and drinking white stuff.
From what i've seen. This meta has an uncanny focus with setting up spikes (at any and all cost). The strangest part about that is, there is really only one main spiker (Froslass) that returns in more then 1 in 10 battles. I have seen absolutely no spiking from Cacturn and rare spiking from Cloyster and Omystar.
Should Froslass be ban, I can't imagine what the hell UU would look like XP But I can't be worse then-
MATCH BEGINS
1:Both set up spikes
2:Both switch to Rapid Spinner
3:Both switch to ghost
pkmnplayer1: Refreshing stratagy, good sir.
pkmnplayer2: Why, thank you good sir.
pkmnplayer1: I will shake your hand now.
pkmnplayer2: I say, how bold.
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