CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 8 - Counters Discussion

[Jibaku]

I would like to remind everyone that checks =/= counters. Things like Dugtrio, Breloom and Suicune are not counters (and cap10 is also more than capable of beating them one on one).

First of all, let's not forget that CAP10 has a great sweeping potential. Although its attacking stats are average, Magic Guard and Garchomp-esque bulk more than make up for it (4/0 CAP10 has more physical bulk than a 4/0 Garchomp). Here are some calcs from a Life Orbed, max SA, Timid CAP10

Ice Beam vs 4/0 Breloom: 115.7% min
If anything, CAP10 checks Breloom, lol.

Thunderbolt vs 252/0 Suicune: 65.8% - 77.7%
That puts an awful lot of dent in Suicune IMO. Even if it swaps into a +1 Cune it can chop off a nice 46% and if there is sandstorm, Suicune can be in a lot of trouble. Also, the possibility of Charge Beam/Psych Up in its movepool can help it bypass the CM boosts

Surf vs 252/0 Swampert: 40%-48%

Ice Beam vs 252/0 Celebi: 49.5% - 58.1%
Careful here...., though that's not to say that Celebi can't be customized to beat CAP10, given the somewhat low damage without investment in SDef. Be careful of entry hazards

(This also means Surf/Thunderbolt does ~37% min to 252/0 Jirachi)

Ice Beam vs 4/0 Roserade: 73.5%-86%


That said, if we don't give CAP10 Recover/Volt Tackle/Superpower (at least together with Magic Guard), I can see Blissey and Snorlax being the closest thing to solid counters. Blissey can shrug off all of the Sspecial attacks and slowly whittle it down with Seismic Toss, and Snorlax can do the same, except by utilizing Earthquake to dispose of CAP10 faster. Celebi is a possibility too, but it'd need Leaf Storm to do so, and prays that CAP10 will not have stuff like Fire Blast or Bug Buzz in its movepool.

As CAP10 is supposed to counter a wide range of Pokemon (though one at a time) it's really hard to say what it won't ever deal with.

 

[Banryu]

For the record, even Adamant Max Atk Waterfalls dont' do that much to 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey.

293 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (80 Base Power): 211 - 250 (32.41% - 38.40%)

This is obviously even worse if you are using Jolly and they have Bold or HP EVs

With Life Orb:
293 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (80 Base Power): 276 - 325 (42.40% - 49.92%)

So, Adamant LO CAP 10 only has a ~30% chance of koing the weakest Blissey one commonly finds WITH SR. However, in a sandstorm the odds go up substantially to upwards of 90%. However, Blisseys often run bold with HP EVs, and CAP 10 will often run a positive speed nature.

EDIT: Also, I would like to mention that the same Adamant LO CAP 10 does this much to 4/0 Tyranitar:

293 Atk vs 256 Def & 342 HP (80 Base Power): 254 - 302 (74.27% - 88.30%)

2.5% of KO after SR

How about Tyranitar? I'm still not convinced that Tar is a suitable counter / check for CAP-10.

 

[ShravanP]

Swampert, Quagsire, and Roserade would be checks rather than hard counters. Was going to add Latias into that statement, but Latias impressive special defense and Recover make it a formidable Pokemon for CAP10.

Yes, you're right about Roserade. For Swampert and Quagsire, their being a check or a counter depends on whether we get a reliable grass move outside of HP Grass. We consider Swampert a counter to Jirachi, even though Jira could very well run HP Grass. But yeah, I do see your point, those two are sort of on the fence as to whether they're counters or checks.

 

[hydrolphin]

That said, if we don't give CAP10 Recover/Volt Tackle/Superpower (at least together with Magic Guard), I can see Blissey and Snorlax being the closest thing to solid counters. Blissey can shrug off all of the Sspecial attacks and slowly whittle it down with Seismic Toss, and Snorlax can do the same, except by utilizing Earthquake to dispose of CAP10 faster. Celebi is a possibility too, but it'd need Leaf Storm to do so, and prays that CAP10 will not have stuff like Fire Blast or Bug Buzz in its movepool.

As CAP10 is supposed to counter a wide range of Pokemon (though one at a time) it's really hard to say what it won't ever deal with.

I agree completely. CAP10 doesn't have many solid counters, if any, if it gets a good physical. Snorlax is the most solid all around, because it can take any non-superpower attack, and respond with EQ. Even a superpower maxes out at 60%, so Snorlax is probably the most solid CAP10 counter. But CAP10's counters come down essentially to how broad its physical movepool is. I see CAP10 being a bit like Jirachi - easy to counter when you know the set, a pain to find an end-all be-all counter for it. This is kind of the idea behind the concept....

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Yes, you're right about Roserade. For Swampert and Quagsire, their being a check or a counter depends on whether we get a reliable grass move outside of HP Grass. We consider Swampert a counter to Jirachi, even though Jira could very well run HP Grass. But yeah, I do see your point, those two are sort of on the fence as to whether they're counters or checks.

Timid, 252 SpA, LO HP Grass does 80.2% - 95% to Mixpert and 71.1% - 84.3% to Curse-sire. Curse-sire and Mixpert can do 55.5% - 65.5% and 69.1% - 81.3% of damage to that same CAP10 respectively. Now Swampert is 2HKO'd by CAP10's Hydro Pump and an Ice Beam to HP Grass spells doom for the mud puppy. This leaves only Thunderbolt for Swampert to come in safely, while Quagsire has at least TB and Hydro Pump to safety switch into. Both seem like check material to me, but do note that we're assuming that they're switching into a 252 SpA LO Timid CAP10. I haven't actually checked to see what a non-LO CAP10 would do.

While we don't know what's CAP10 entire movepool would look like, I can see the community giving it the bare minimum of moves based on it's typing. With that in mind, I ca see the following move using used by CAP10

Surf
Hydro Pump
Waterfall
Ice Beam
Blizzard
Ice Punch
Avalanche
Thunderbolt
Thunder
ThunderPunch
Hidden Power

Now from this and with the ability Magic Guard, a LO set of Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Hidden Power (Coverage) is a big possibility. Right now I'm doing damage calculations to see which Pokemon within OU can be a decent checks/counters for something like CAP10. At the moment I just started it and it would probably take me some time to actually finish it so this post will get edited alot.

Hide

Aerodactyl
Hydro Pump: 157.6% - 186.8%
Ice Beam: 83.4% - 98.7%
Thunderbolt: 125.2% - 147.7%


Azelf
Hydro Pump: 99% - 116.5%
Ice Beam: 52.2% - 61.5%
Thunderbolt: 78.4% - 92.1%
HP Bug/Ghost/Dark: 77% - 90.7%


Blissey
Hydro Pump: 16.9% - 20.1%
Ice Beam: 9% - 10.7%
Thunderbolt: 13.4% - 16%
HP Fighting: 13.4% - 15.8%


Breloom
Hydro Pump: 52% - 61.5%
Ice Beam: 110.6% - 130.4%
Thunderbolt: 41.4% - 48.7%
HP Flying: 162.6% - 191.9%
HP Fire: 81.3% - 96%


Bronzong
Hydro Pump: 41.1% - 48.8%
Ice Beam: 10.9% - 13%
Thunderbolt: 32.8% - 39.1%
HP Fire: 32.5% - 38.5%


Celebi
Hydro Pump: 23.3% - 27.5%
Ice Beam: 49.5% - 58.4%
Thunderbolt: 18.6% - 21.8%
HP Bug: 73.3% - 87.1%
HP Fire: 36.6% - 43.6%


Dragonite
Hydro Pump: 32.5% - 38.4%
Ice Beam: 137.5% - 162.2%
Thunderbolt: 51.4% - 60.7%
HP Rock: 50.8% - 60.1%


Dusknoir
Hydro Pump: 49.3% - 58.5%
Ice Beam: 26.5% - 31.3%
Thunderbolt: 39.8% - 46.9%
HP Ghost: 38.1% - 45.6%


Electivire
Hydro Pump: 74.2% - 87.6%
Ice Beam: 39.2% - 46.4%
Thunderbolt: Absorb
HP Ground: 58.4% - 68.7%


Empoleon
Hydro Pump: 29.8% - 35.6%
Ice Beam: 7.7% - 9.3%
Thunderbolt: 94.9% - 112.2%
HP Ground: 46.8% - 55.8%


Flygon:
Hydro Pump: 75.5% - 88.7%
Ice Beam: 157.6% - 186.8%
Thunderbolt: Immune


Forretress
Hydro Pump: 80.5% - 94.9%
Ice Beam: 21.2% - 25.1%
Thunderbolt: 63.8% - 75.4%
HP Fire: 125.4% - 148%

 

[Deck Knight]

Most counters are going to be entirely movepool dependent. Remember that unlike in the stats discussion, these are going to have to be pokemon that switch into CAP 10.

Here are a few that are going to cause trouble to a large majority of sets:

Swampert: Immunity to electric, neutral to water, and a good deal of bulk are all reasons that unless CAP10 has some strong Grass moves, Swampert is going to be a pain in the rear. I think Swampert should be a pretty good counter to CAP10 in the abstract. Swampert isn't generally a huge offensive threat and if HP Grass is the only means to address it, it can still be countered.

Zapdos: For similar reasons to Swampert, except Zapdos has reliable recovery and Pressure. It can hit pretty hard with LO on things not prepared for special attacks, and defensive sets are very effective at stalling offensive CAP10 sets.

Shaymin: Whereas Celebi could be addressed with some powerful Bug moves, Shaymin has no 4x weaknesses to speak of and the same overall bulk, plus the monstrous Seed Flare.

Generally speaking, Pokemon with 4x weaknesses can at best hope to be checks to a CAP10 with moves addressing that kind of threat. Swampert sticks out as a special example in my mind because it is quite bulky and sufficiently offensive (and carries Roar), and without a full Grass movepool CAP10 will need to rely on Hidden Power at the expense of other coverage, since Water/Electric/Grass has too much overlap.

 

[SinisterSamurai]

Right now I'm doing damage calculations to see which Pokemon within OU can be a decent checks/counters for something like CAP10. At the moment I just started it and it would probably take me some time to actually finish it so this post will get edited alot.

Just as a worst-case scenario (A lot of people are concerned about recoil), how do those numbers look if Shrimplitude Modulation had access to each move in the Double-Edged recoil family (Volt-Tackle, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, and Woodhammer)?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Just as a worst-case scenario (A lot of people are concerned about recoil), how do those numbers look if Shrimplitude Modulation had access to each move in the Double-Edged recoil family (Volt-Tackle, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, and Woodhammer)?

I'll think about that. I was operation under the assumption of a skeleton movepool (STAB moves, flavor moves, Hidden Power) and putting it up against the first moveset given to each opposing Pokemon.

Swampert: Immunity to electric, neutral to water, and a good deal of bulk are all reasons that unless CAP10 has some strong Grass moves, Swampert is going to be a pain in the rear. I think Swampert should be a pretty good counter to CAP10 in the abstract. Swampert isn't generally a huge offensive threat and if HP Grass is the only means to address it, it can still be countered.

I still say Swampert is more of a check than a counter and my earlier comment mentions it.

Zapdos: For similar reasons to Swampert, except Zapdos has reliable recovery and Pressure. It can hit pretty hard with LO on things not prepared for special attacks, and defensive sets are very effective at stalling offensive CAP10 sets.

Wasn't it already established that Zapdos would be an excellent counter to CAP10 despite being 2HKO'd by offensive CAP10 if Stealth Rock is up. To be fair Physical Defensive Zapdos wasn't made to a beating on the special side.

Zapdos vs CAP10.

(Physical Defensive) Zapdos
Hydro Pump: 53.5% - 63.4%
Ice Beam: 56.4% - 66.8%
Thunderbolt / HP Rock: 42.3% - 50.1%

(Special Defensive) Zapdos
Hydro Pump: 39.2% - 46.2%
Ice Beam: 41.3% - 48.6%
Thunderbolt / HP Rock: 30.8% - 36%

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I believe that most defensive pokemon SHOULD be able to counter CAP10.

Defensive pokemon aren't "threats" or at least not the kind that need a customized counter. i don't think it's appropriate to say that "CAP10 needs a Grass move to counter Swampert" because if i want to counter swampert, i am not going to use an electric/water-type. i would use a celebi or a breloom. in the same vein, i don't think CAP10 needs a fighting-type move to counter blissey and snorlax, because if i needed to cover them, i would use a machamp over CAP10 every time.

That's why i think most defensive pokemon (that aren't weak to elec/water) should be able to wall CAP10. they aren't really threats, and if you want a dedicated counter, they're abundant.

The idea of a "utility counter" is a pokemon that should be able to stop things that are a big issue and that actually need to be stopped before they wreck you. i'm talking about things like infernape, gyarados, salamence, heatran, metagross, empoleon, and lucario.

So what moves does CAP10 need? it needs to be able to hit these pokemon for super-effective damage. what doesn't it need? it doesn't need three different ways to hit them for super-effective damage. suppose we want to customize CAP10 to beat lucario. if CAP10's movepool includes Earthquake + Superpower + Fire Blast, it just has tons of power options that it doesn't need at all. one move to hit Steel-type attackers will be plenty. looking at that list, Ground hits all of the threatening Steels for super effective damage, while Fire and Fighting do not, which is why i think they're unnecessary.

i know lots of people seem to like the idea of Fire moves, but if you think about it, what are you going to hit with them that you couldn't already hit super effectively? Fire hits Steel, Grass, Bug and Ice for super effective damage. Ice- and Bug-types can be pretty much thrown out (CAP10 will never be the Heracross counter that Gliscor is, and i'll come back to Scizor) while Grass pokemon are already covered by Ice Beam. of the four Steels that Ground doesn't hit for super effective damage, Bronzong, Skarmory and Forretress are not threats and Scizor cannot be countered in the usual sense when it's spamming choice band U-turn, which is doing a lot of damage to CAP10 even with max defense investment.

As for things like Suicune, cm Jirachi, and Curselax, i don't see why CAP10 couldn't just use Perish Song!

in short, i want CAP10 to have a fairly small movepool and a lot of hard counters. Swampert, Quagsire, Snorlax, and Blissey shouldn't have anything to fear from CAP10 because they're not threats.

Bulky Tyranitar will be an acceptable counter to special versions of CAP10, but Waterfall will do an awful lot of damage. Ludicolo is a cool answer, and gets a huge boost if CAP10 uses Rain Dance. basically, anything bulky and not weak to its moves should be able to handle it, like specially defensive Forretress (assuming no Fire).

 

[Deck Knight]

No, a utility counter should be able to handle a good deal of defensive threats as well. Snorlax is primarily a defensive threat. It tanks the hell out of attacks but it can set up a sweep on you in fairly short order.

Blissey is a different story, but in order to counter Snorlax you usually are able to counter Blissey by proxy. CAP10 is going to suffer 4MSS and so it will only be able to counter so much. If you really want to obsess over Steels and want to run Waterfall/Flamethrower/Earthquake/Superpower you should be able to. Just note you'll be Salamence, Gyarados, and Latias bait, and you'll probably still have to deal with Metagross hitting you with EQ.

I think a few defensive pokemon whose sweeping sets are rarer should be counters (Swampert and Shaymin being prime examples), but I don't want an entire category of common defensive threats to wall CAP10 infinitely. All that means is that the sweeper you want to address gets in a potshot, then they switch to a wall, and the wall forces you out indefinitely until you're weak enough for the sweeper you were meant to counter can finish you off.

These stats really do need to be tailored to what you want to counter. You will probably have to run calcs to perfect the EVs. Even assuming you had the offensive movepool diversity of Smeargle you could not hope to counter too many things at once. What you'd probably end up doing is seeking out one or two targets, perhaps two targets commonly used in an offensive/defensive pivot, and tailoring your set to counter those two things.

I want as few hard counters as possible. We want to explore defensive versatility, or basically a defense with so many options that it cannot possibly be prepared for, that forces your opponent to pay attention to your moves and the damage you deal in order to find an appropriate switchin. This rewards more conservative teambuilding centered around pokemon with fewer exploitable weaknesses.

 

[Dominion]

This is simply an example. Lets assume:

CAP10 (Code Name: Pinky)
Maxed HP (506), Maxed Special Defense (269) +Nature
Magic Guard
Leftovers

A Triple Attack+Life Orb Latias with Energy ball is doing 35.2% - 41.5% to a max HP/S.Def +Natured CAP10 (Not including Leftovers). This is bad for Latias. Of course, this is what we want though! This CAP would literally have to have 252/252+ just to survive an Energy Ball from Latias. Lets now do the same thing with a physical pokemon using this exact spread.. such as Tyranitar:

Typical Choice Band Tyranitar:

Earthquake from CBTar does 94.1% - 110.7% to this CAP assuming this CAP is the same as above. This can be done on the switch even. Surf from this Particular CAP spread only does 30.4% - 36.7% to CBTar. Thats including Sandstorm. This means that CBTar is an amazing Check to this CAP if this CAP does 252/252 HP/S.Def. And this is the very best Special Defense this CAP can get without boosts.

Even if the CAP went 252HP/252DEF, Tyranitar would still do enough damage to 2HKO. This CAP is unable to 3HKO CBTar a portion of the time.

We have effectly gotten the CAP to where we want. With a spread of 252/252 HP/S.Def, this CPA is capable of absorbing terrible terrible damage from the special spectrum but can't survive a powerful physical blow.

This is of course only from a defensive point of view, and the specially defensive point of view to be more specific. So to sum it up:

Maxed Special Defensive CAP10 is Checked (very well mind you) by CBTar.

 

[Rhys29]

Too many people are trying to get CAP10's movepool involved with this section. As mentioned before the suggestion of moves like Superpower, Hydro Pump, and even Volt Tackle are ridiculous.

Blissey will never really counter CAP10 as much as end up in a stall war with it. The best it can hope for is perhaps hitting with Thunder Wave. Physical based movesets will also have a little less trouble dealing with Blissey.

Snorlax is a solid counter and deals with CAP10 quite effectively. Curse variants are basically free to set up on most sets that aren't tailored to Snorlax.

Grass types like Celebi and Shaymin will have little issue switching into either STAB and both have access to recovery and powerful SE hits. Roserade is somewhat mentionable but physical movesets won't as much of a problem.

Personally I don't see Zapdos doing so well against CAP10. Any set with an Ice attack, which of course will be common, can deal some impressive damage to Zapdos and SR weakness hurts. Being outrun to be hit with an SE attack before it can Roost is also dangerous, so I would consider it to be more of a check. Def Zapdos should have an easier time with physical movesets however.

I don't understand the big upset with Energy Ball/Grass Knot Latias. Energy Ball, even when hitting SE, does meager amounts of damage compared to Draco Meteor. Latias itself will make a good check and excellent switch-in for CAP10. Recover and CM will alow Latias to set up on special based movesets and CAP10's not investing heavily into Sp.D/HP will take a massive hit from +1 or LO Draco Meteor.

Tyranitar can threaten CAP10 and CAP10 can threaten Tyranitar. The whole issue is completely situational and I would consider it more of a rough check.

Standard Swampert will be more of a soft counter while Sp.D can hard counter. Of course it has to avoid any Grass attack and pray CAP10 doesn't have Magnet Rise (if it gets the move or if it runs the move thought Pert still has Roar).

 

[black_cotton]

About the solid counter statement i think all the major options have already been stated so i 'll agree with the great part of the arguments.

But i don't see any point about a grass type that is Ludicolo, taken the basic moves that CAP10 may get i do not seen anything doing significant damage to it ,cause ludicolo has a great typing defensively buying itself resistances to water, and being neutral do ice and eletric and coupled with great special defense, good special atack and stab grass moves at his side i can see ludicolo winning the one-one situation. (Ludicolo may even get to the point of outspeeding, in the rain, all Cap 10 that lacks trace for example).

 

[FlareBlitz]

The suggestion of Superpower and Hydro Pump is absolutely not ridiculous; I can easily see it getting both the moves, because otherwise it has pretty major TTar problems and would have issues doing enough damage on defensive sets with just Surf. Volt Tackle may be unlikely, but it's still definitely a possibility until the movepool polls close, so until then you probably shouldn't act like your opinions are going to be reflected in the votes of the community. This is why most of the posters who have posted so far have prefaced their statements with "If CAP10 gets this..." and not "CAP10 will never get this so who cares."

 

[Dominion]

Instead of saying either Flare, why don't you just make a broad assumption like I did? I haven't assumed anything except STAB Water, STAB Electric and possibly an Ice move will exist on this CAP.

Why does this CAP need a certain move to beat a certain pokemon? This CAP can handle TTar if it's Physically bulky and has a powerful physical move at it's disposal. There is very little that completely wall or destroy this CAP no matter what it's moveset and stat distribution might be. Infact, I doubt that there will be a pokemon that can handle this CAP 100% of the time.

This CAP is never going to be countered by "pokemon X" 100% of the time. Due to it's extremely flexible stats and current STAB options, this CAP is in the same boat as Salamence already. You will never be able to properly counter this CAP without first knowing it's moveset and stat distribution before hand.

 

[Bamce]

Unless we give CAP10 some sort of move to counter enemy stat ups, Crocune, Curselax, and CM Jirachi will give this thing hell. Once they set up one boost, CAP10 won't really be able to do anything to them. That is, of course, if we don't give it a move like Haze, Roar/WW, or Heart Swap.

In my opinion, CAP10 SHOULD be equipped to counter these stat-uppers, so I don't think we should include the above pokemon on the counter list. So far, we already have Celebi, Roserade, Shaymin, Quagsire, Swampert, Lanturn, and Latias as potential hard counters for this. Adding on Crocune, Curselax, and CM Jirachi sort of extends the list too far IMO.

Don't forget Taunt, though you still ain't getting through Pokemon like Curselax anytime soon.

Swampert, Quagsire, and Roserade would be checks rather than hard counters. Was going to add Latias into that statement, but Latias impressive special defense and Recover make it a formidable Pokemon for CAP10.

I really wanted unaware as an ablity but came to late to the party to get my imput in on it.

We would be better off with Haze as ability in concept. Taunt has the potential to be far to punishing to defensive pokes. The idea is to be able to tailor it. As it stands right now its stats alone make it almost impervious to blissy. Giving it taunt on top of that just makes it worse.

As for roar/ww, While having the same function as removing stat uppers, It also removes things that are walling you.

Haze seems a nice medium inbetween handling stat uppers and not becoming overly broken. Since outside of wiping buffs it doesn't do anything also fits into the concept

 

[Mattman324]

I don't actually think that any pokemon is a surefire counter to CAP10. One might note things like Swampert, but if CAP10 is running Energy Ball, it's screwed.

However, there is a limit. Like all unpredictable pokemon, the second it reveals it's gimmic, a lot more pokemon counter it. Say you want it to... counter Heatran and pokemon like it. So it runs Earth Power, Surf, Thunderbolt, and Recover (Just guessing around). But that leaves you open to Salamence or somesuch, and you are a sitting duck to a SpD oriented Water/Ground type (Like CursePert) So instead of Earth Power, you run Energy ball and more physical based stats. But then you are left open to a fast physical pokemon with a powerful special, maybe even super effective hit.

Although as a principal, Swampert is probubly the best counter, or Quagsire. Immune to Thunderbolt, either can take Surfs or are immune to them depending on which, and can blast it with SE EQs.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

This discussion, despite it being generally redundant and senseless thus far, has made me think about the possibility of Ice Beam on CAP10's movepool as a problem. Ice Beam allows it to, with Magic Guard and the inevitable Life Orb, demolish all of the grass types that we are so sure should check CAP10.

252 Timid Life Orb Pokemon Ice Beam  
  
  vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Celebi : 49.5% - 58.4%
  vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Shaymin : 49.5% - 58.4%
  vs. 48/0 Adamant Toxic Orb Breloom : 110.6% - 130.4%
  vs. 4/0 Timid Focus Sash Roserade : 73.3% - 86.3%
  vs. Timid Leftovers Abomasnow : 35.5% - 42.1%
  vs. 60/0 Modest Life Orb Ludicolo : 31.6% - 37.3%

After SR, both Celebi and Shaymin are beaten, Breloom never stood a chance, Roserade is 2HKO'd solidly, and even Abomasnow can lose. (It takes 25% from SR) Sure, this might sound like a case against sweeper CAP10, and in some sense it is, but really this just shows that with Ice Beam, CAP10 burns through its checks list pretty quickly - especially with it being faster than the entire above list.

If you remove Ice Beam, however, then CAP10 is forced to pick between HPIce or HPGrass. In that case, either CAP10 beats Salamence/Gliscor/Dragonite or it stands a chance against Swampert. For the record, here are the necessary calcs that show that HPIce is sufficient for beating Salamence and the other Pokemon with a 4x weakness to Ice and also the same calcs as before, now with HPIce.

252 Timid Life Orb Pokemon (70bp Ice Special)  
  
  vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Celebi : 36.6% - 43.6%
  vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Shaymin : 36.6% - 43.6%
  vs. 48/0 Adamant Toxic Orb Breloom : 81.3% - 96%
  vs. 4/0 Timid Focus Sash Roserade : 54.2% - 64.1%
  vs. Timid Leftovers Abomasnow : 26.5% - 31.2%
  vs. 60/0 Modest Life Orb Ludicolo : 23.4% - 27.8%

Now the kills:

80 Timid Life Orb Pokemon (70bp Ice Special)  
  
  vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 100.3% - 118.4%
  vs. 252/0 Jolly Leftovers Salamence : 75.1% - 89.3%
  vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Gliscor : 89.3% - 105.1%
  vs. Rash Life Orb Dragonite : 84.2% - 100.3%
  vs. 224/0 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 65.4% - 78.1%

80 Timid Life Orb Pokemon Ice Beam  
  
  vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 135.3% - 159.5%
  vs. 252/0 Jolly Leftovers Salamence : 102.5% - 120.8%
  vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Gliscor : 120.9% - 142.4%
  vs. Rash Life Orb Dragonite : 115.2% - 136.2%
  vs. 224/0 Adamant Leftovers Dragonite : 89.7% - 105.5%

Mence is the important one, and with SR he's still taken down with HPIce even when bulky. Gliscor dies with SR as well, and so does Dragonite on occasion. Bulky DDNite has a chance to survive after SR.

Is this a problem? Is it more important to guarantee OHKOs on these threats without SR using Ice Beam than it is to have a reasonable list of checks that we don't solidly murder? That's sort of what I'd like to see a bit of discussion with regards to. Currently, I favor HPIce, but maybe there are some angles of this I'm missing that you all can elaborate upon.

PS: Since this is more relevant to whether or not we want Grass-types to check/counter CAP10 than movepool, it's not really poll jumping. This discussion, should it unfold, will have ramifications on movepool, but that's the only significance.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I already named some counters assuming a bare-bones movepool in my post (Celebi, Shaymin, Latias), and I definitely don't mind others doing the same, but it's not realistic to assume such a movepool. In fact, discounting ANY move at this point is folly, since we have no idea what will end up coming out of the movepool discussion. So as far as counters go, I think this will very much be something along the lines of a pseudolegend like Metagross or Gyarados or Salamence, in that it can run many movesets to beat pretty much the entire tier but where every moveset has some specific counters (i.e. Metagross can run Grass Knot to beat Swampert, but we mostly consider Swampert as "countering").

Edit: This discussion feels a bit like poll jumping, but I don't think it would be a good idea to exclude Ice Beam from the movepool just because it happens to beat bulky grass types. Your calcs assume Life Orb and 80 SATK with a Timid nature, but something like that would make it VERY difficult for CAP10 to switch into Mence and Dnite because without leftovers and with little bulk, you're taking huge damage from Draco/EQ, and DD variants just completely demolish you since you're (presumably) using Magic Guard instead of Trace. And if you use HP Ice without a Life Orb (Leftovers with Trace, for instance), the calcs are significantly less impressive, to the point where you don't even ohko DD Mence after SR (62.8% - 74.9%)

I think it's important that we worry about "can do its job of countering things" first before we go on to "cannot be a sweeper". It's the case that Celebi/Shaymin can still survive Ice Beam and smack you around with powerful Grass attacks, so I don't really think removing Ice Beam is necessary.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

This discussion feels a bit like poll jumping

The entire point of counters discussion is to impact the movepool while also discussing the 'mons that give it the most trouble. If we didn't want Swampert to be a check, we could give CAP10 Energy Ball or Leaf Storm and so forth.

I think it's important that we worry about "can do its job of countering things" first before we go on to "cannot be a sweeper". It's the case that Celebi/Shaymin can still survive Ice Beam and smack you around with powerful Grass attacks, so I don't really think removing Ice Beam is necessary.

But really, they can't. How can they switch into CAP10? Either Shaymin or Celebi switch in and take a whopping 52% damage on top of 12% from SR. Then, they're both slower than CAP10, so they get killed the next turn by another Ice Beam, even considering Leftovers. 52% isn't even the max that Ice Beam does to them, not even close. That is exactly what shouldn't happen if they are to be considered checks by any means.

I think it's important that we worry about "can do its job of countering things" first before we go on to "cannot be a sweeper".

What other 'mons beside those 4x weak to Ice that I listed above are we "countering" with Ice Beam?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Offensive variants of Shaymin/Celebi can't switch into HP Ice either, since both offensive Celebi and offensive Shaymin are 2hko'd by it, just as they are by Ice Beam. Your calcs with Ice Beam are against physically defensive Celebi/Shaymin (i.e. 252/0 Pokes); but if a team is looking to counter CAP10, what's to stop them from just using specially defensive variants?

252 SATK LO Ice Beam from Timid CAP against 252/120 Calm Shaymin: 40.1% - 47.5%
132 SATK Shaymin Seed Flare against same CAP: 85.3% - 100.7%

So Shaymin can switch in, survive after SR most of the time, and KO back. If we assume this is going to be a heavy Poke (not really flavor-compliant, but anyway) Celebi can do the same with Grass Knot; otherwise it needs Leaf Storm to guarantee the kill.

And what, you ask, do we lose by eliminating Ice Beam? I already provided calcs against 4/0 DD Mence; they're even more depressing against BulkyMence, Bulky DNite, and even Gliscor. The problem with your calcs on the same is that you take Life Orb into account, which pretty much requires Magic Guard, which in turn makes Salamence and Dragonite beat you 100% of the time regardless of how much damage you can do to them. The calculations I did are more realistic, in that they assume a Trace Leftovers CAP, and they definitely do not give us the power we need to defeat the dragons. Hell, bulky variants of both can actually set up on you with Roost...HP Ice from 80 SATK Leftovers CAP10 is 50.7% - 60.2% against BulkyDnite with HP Ice, meaning it can Roost off the damage while DDing up. Calcs against Mence are similar. With Ice Beam, however, BulkyDNite has a good chance of being ohko'd after SR. This in itself is massively important, since Mence and Dnite are significant threats that many people would want to tailor CAP10 to beat. And so it's not worth losing Ice Beam, simply because HP Ice doesn't beat them.

 

[Rhys29]

The suggestion of Superpower and Hydro Pump is absolutely not ridiculous... until then you probably shouldn't act like your opinions are going to be reflected in the votes of the community.

Take your own advice. Extremely powerful moves should not be quoted at this stage. However simple moves like Surf and Thunderbolt are far more acceptable by both sides. CAP10 has no need for extremely offensive moves such as Hydro Pump and Volt Tackle in order to function. Too many are afraid of CAP10 being a great offensive threat, I believe you were one of them, so by all means these moves should be avoided at all costs.

At this point simply giving a coverage type is going to be the best way to argue a point.

@Rising Dusk: I'm with you on the Ice Beam though at this point I wouldn't consider it a taboo move.

 

[Objection]

Here's a novel idea: a process.

• Devise a generic CAP10 moveset using four attacks we can assume CAP10 will get (I'm gonna say that Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Hidden Power is a good generic moveset that uses four attacks)
• Identify a pokemon X that counters this moveset.
• Do we want pokemon X to always counter CAP10? Y/N
• If Y, do not give CAP10 any moves that can 2HKO or cripple pokemon X
• If N, give CAP10 a move that can 2HKO or cripple pokemon X
• Identify a pokemon P that counters the generic moveset or a moveset with any of the new moves
• Do we want pokemon P to always counter CAP10? Y/N
• etc.

As an example, I'm going to say that Blissey counters that generic moveset just fine. If we want Blissey to be a hard counter to CAP10, then any high-power physical Fighting-type moves should not be allowed on CAP10. If we don't, then we should give CAP10 a high-power physical Fighting-type move, in which case anything weak to such moves (eg, Tyranitar) can be disregarded as a CAP10 counter.

EDIT: @DrkSlay: The main reason I picked the special moves was because Surf, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam have more base power than Waterfall, Thunderpunch and Ice Punch. Still, it's not a bad idea to consider multiple generic sets.

 

[zarator]

I think people are making a mistake here. I understand why you don't want CAP10 to beat Grass types, for example, but creating true "hard counters" to CAP10 makes his job all the much harder, especially if CAP10 does not boast Recover. Let's say, for example, that CAP10 is completely walled by Blissey. How is CAP10 supposed to check, say, Salamence, when everything cAP10 can do is switch in, suffer significant damage and hit the Blissey promptly switched in by the opponent? CAP10 isn't some sort of Blissey-like wall, able to come in endlessly on the threats he's supposed to check. CAP10 won't be able to switch into Salamence and/or Gyarados more than 2-3 times, before falling to their powerful Earthquakes (or, in Salamence's case, Draco Meteors). If it is too easy to pair the Pokémon CAP10 is intended to check with a hard counter to said CAP, the job of our Shrimp-mon becomes almost pointless.

tl;dr: Without moves like Ice Beam to dent his supposed counters, CAP10 will fail

 

[DarkSlay]

Here's a novel idea: a process.

• Devise a generic CAP10 moveset using four attacks we can assume CAP10 will get (I'm gonna say that Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Hidden Power is a good generic moveset that uses four attacks)
• Identify a pokemon X that counters this moveset.
• Do we want pokemon X to always counter CAP10? Y/N
• If Y, do not give CAP10 any moves that can 2HKO or cripple pokemon X
• If N, give CAP10 a move that can 2HKO or cripple pokemon X
• Identify a pokemon P that counters the generic moveset or a moveset with any of the new moves
• Do we want pokemon P to always counter CAP10? Y/N
• etc.

As an example, I'm going to say that Blissey counters that generic moveset just fine. If we want Blissey to be a hard counter to CAP10, then any high-power physical Fighting-type moves should not be allowed on CAP10. If we don't, then we should give CAP10 a high-power physical Fighting-type move, in which case anything weak to such moves (eg, Tyranitar) can be disregarded as a CAP10 counter.

I like this idea. However, it seems that this should be broken down further, as it seems a lot of people are forgetting that CAP10's Attacking stats are fairly even. It does not seem logical to just create one purely Special Attack-based moveset and say it's standard, as we are all fully aware that CAP10 will be attacking from both sides of the spectrum. Also, we cannot also assume it will be attacking straightforward with max attacking stats too, especially with Magic Guard and if one chooses to counter Salamence and such. If we were to do it by this process, we should at least make different movesets to reflect possible roles. That is: at a minimum, Special and Physical sets should be made, and then we can determine what kinds of Pokemon counter each individual set, and see which Pokemon has the easiest time dealing with each set. So, it should look something like this:

CAP10 @ Life Orb
Magic Guard
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Jolly
Moveset:
- Waterfall (STAB)
- ThunderPunch (STAB. TPunch is the most conservative choice at the moment. I'm not doing Volt Tackle.)
- Ice Punch (BoltBeam coverage, although EQ
- Superpower/Earthquake

AND

CAP10 @ Life Orb
Magic Guard
252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
Timid
Moveset:
- Surf (STAB)
- Thunderbolt (STAB)
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power (Grass, Flying, and Fire seem to be the best choices so far. A lot of people are forgetting Scizor, after all. Bug is a decent choice as well. We should consider these three types especially when moves are being decided.)

Defensively, we should be looking at this set, to provide maximum bulk for calculations and such.

CAP10 @ Leftovers (or there are other possible choices, like Expert Belt, Lum Berry, and such.)
Trace
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
Bold
Moveset:
- Surf (STAB)
- Thunderbolt (STAB)
- Ice Beam
- Rest (or a Recovery move if CAP10 were to get one. It will get Rest, no doubt.)

Or that same moveset, with Calm + 252 SpD EV's instead of Def.

These are the movesets and spreads I will be using for my calculations. From my initial viewpoint by movesets alone, it seems that Jirachi, Shaymin, and Zapdos are standing out as threats to almost all movesets of CAP10. Each do indeed fear certain moves (Jirachi and EQ, Shaymin and Ice Beam, and Zapdos and Ice Beam), but overall, they have the possible bulk to withstand neutral and 2x hits easily. 4x weak Pokemon, like Swampert, Celebi, and Breloom, I am more hesitant about calling checks and such because of their 4x weaknesses. Swampert has immense bulk, true, but I would be surprised if CAP10 won't receive at least Grass Knot. The rest fall prey to things like X-Scissor and Air Slash, or even Hidden Power. Breloom is also OHKO'd by Ice Beam, and Celebi is 2HKO'd, making them less of threats.

I will update this post with some calculations later, to back up some threats.