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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

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Yes if you are able to figure out peoples first move then it becomes easy to switch in Alaka.

As stated by Thund91 and Bluewind the number on SD Venusaurs that i switch in on is ludicrous. Every single time i switch in, sub if they haven't slept anything yet or pyschic if they have for the KO. When it comes to dugtrio switch ins, i ALWAYS substitute first. The reason being is that most people seem to sucker punch (especially if they haven't seen sub). Also its a forced speed tie (unless scarf) i have a 50% success rate of beating the user who is smart of enough to eq the first turn.
 
I used LO, but you really need to bring him on the right moment for it to work. For example, you can't afford to have your sub up and get walled by a Milotic. You can always use Expert Belt too.
 
This is the set i run.

Alakazam @ Leftovers
Timid / Synchronize
4 def/ 252 spA / 252 spe
-Sub
-Pyschic
-Focus Blast
-Hidden Power [Grass]

Pyschic hits most things, Focus Blast is for Registeel(regirock and regice as well), and Hidden Power Grass is to hit dugtrio, and bulky ground types like quagsire who annoy me. leftovers is a viable option because it still gets the ohko on LO venusaur.
Timid Leftovers Alakazam Psychic
vs. Jolly Life Orb Venusaur : 101.7% - 119.6%

Edit: I never thought about expert belt, i might try that.

edit2: didn't even realize grass knot was a move he could learn. (<--- idiot)
 
I ran LO just for the power and to bluff. I always EQed with duggy just because I figured I wasn't the first to think of sub LO Alakazam. Seriously, though, LO makes a really good item to bluff a sub set due to the fact few Pokemon would even think of running substitute with LO.

Didn't see that RMT, but Arcanine really needs LO for some important KOs at +2.
 
Why not Grass Knot? Dugtrio is hit for 135 Base Damage by Psychic anyway, and you can hit Spiritomb and Milotic much harder. Or at least Energy Ball ._.
 
Isnt it a bit risky switching in Alaka on Venasaur's first turn in since a common strategy is 1. Come in on something you force out 2. Sleep their counter 3. SD and sweep?
 
It is, but then again, the way things get played is always changing. A lot of people stopped sending in their counters because they become useless then (if they got hit with Sleep Powder), so they will often sac something else, followed by sending their true counter in. In response, some Venusaur players started holding off on their Sleep Powder and just going offensive to see what the other player does. I know when I was using Venu on one of my teams, I'd always go for Leech Seed first when predicting a switch. So, in short, Venu doesn't necessarily always sleep something, and often starts to set up.
 
Yondie said:
Yes if you are able to figure out peoples first move then it becomes easy to switch in Alaka.

As stated by Thund91 and Bluewind the number on SD Venusaurs that i switch in on is ludicrous. Every single time i switch in, sub if they haven't slept anything yet or pyschic if they have for the KO. When it comes to dugtrio switch ins, i ALWAYS substitute first. The reason being is that most people seem to sucker punch (especially if they haven't seen sub). Also its a forced speed tie (unless scarf) i have a 50% success rate of beating the user who is smart of enough to eq the first turn.
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actually wrong, you'd have to win the speed tie TWICE. you're not beating dugtrio 50% of the time if you sub on turn 1 and he eq'd because you still have to beat him the next turn. and that's if they don't smarten up and use sucker punch next
 
With min/min Sub CM Raikou....

Registeel switches in. Raikou uses Substitute (81.25%)
Raikou uses Calm Mind. Registeel uses Earthquake. Raikou (87.5%)
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (39.8%max). Registeel uses Earthquake (50.9%min). Raikou (42.5%)
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (39.8%max). Registeel needs to have started with more than 39.8+39.8 - 6.25 = 73.35% to "hard counter" Raikou. That's triple your suggested 25%, and this is without any entry hazards.

Let's try the Life Orb variant now:

Registeel switches in. Raikou uses Calm Mind. Raikou (100%)
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (51.9%max). Registeel uses Earthquake (2HKOes).
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (51.9% max). Registeel needs to start with 51.9 + 51.9 - 6.25 = 97.55% to "hard counter Raikou". Even Stealth Rock would close that gap. That's roughly quadruple your suggested 25%.

So please, stop with this annoying "REGISTEEL HAS GOOD SPECIAL DEFENSE SO IT COUNTERS RAIKOU" argument. It's simply false.
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Okay, that may be, but the point is that if Raikou and Registeel are both at full health, Registeel will beat Raikou EVERY time, no matter what Raikou runs. Don't give me stuff like "If Registeel has taken prior damage it can beaten", either, because you can make any Pokemon broken with that excuse. A "counter" is a Pokemon who can switch into any set of a Pokemon and beat it or threaten it out. Unless it is like the 2nd or 3rd time that Registeel has switched in, Raikou is not going to beat Registeel.
 
Unless it is like the 2nd or 3rd time that Registeel has switched in, Raikou is not going to beat Registeel.
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That's exactly the thing, though. Registeel is only going to be able to force Raikou out once. Registeel is going to switch in a large number of times in any given match, to handle threats like Mismagius, Swellow, Rotom, etc. It's taking quite a bit of passive damage from SR and resisted attacks alone, never mind Spikes. Raikou will maul it the next time it comes out.

This is essentially true for all Raikou's checks. They are all overcome after a bit of passive damage(except Chansey and Dugtrio). And that passive damage is extremely easy to accumulate.

Now, if only Registeel had Recover... *prays to game freak*
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
If Raikou was deemed to be as good as Cress, it wouldn't have survived even one round of testing in UU, never mind two on the trot. We have to respect the integrity of the pool of qualified voters as a means of achieving progress, otherwise the minority that always exists can just yell 'opinion!' every time in order to impede any and all progress. You seem to either have serious issues with the testing policies, or have little respect for the integrity of the qualified voter pool, or worse, both. I hope you remain in a tiny minority in this regard, otherwise we really will have problems.
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I don't think the people in the megathread had valid reasons for banning Cresselia and not Raikou. The voters may or may not have had the same fallacious arguments, but if something like Cresselia gets banned for those reasons it is really no one's fault; confirmation bias is a main part of human psychology.

shrang said:
Okay, that may be, but the point is that if Raikou and Registeel are both at full health, Registeel will beat Raikou EVERY time, no matter what Raikou runs. Don't give me stuff like "If Registeel has taken prior damage it can beaten", either, because you can make any Pokemon broken with that excuse. A "counter" is a Pokemon who can switch into any set of a Pokemon and beat it or threaten it out. Unless it is like the 2nd or 3rd time that Registeel has switched in, Raikou is not going to beat Registeel.
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At any given point in a match where Raikou can come in on one of the 44%+ of the top 50 that it forces out:

I switch in Raikou.
I use Substitute. You switch in Registeel.
I Thunderbolt. You Earthquake and break the sub.
I switch out Raikou and send in Donphan to take lol damage from the Earthquake.
You switch in Milotic or Moltres as I set up Stealth Rock. I switch to Raikou.
You switch in Registeel. I Calm Mind.
I Thunderbolt, you Earthquake.
I Thunderbolt, you faint.

You have no Raikou counters left because your "hard counter" failed, so you lose, good game.


How about this one (with the Life Orb variant, just to prove this is true for both variants)?

I send in Froslass on Milotic.
I set up Spikes. Milotic uses Surf.
I set up Spikes. Milotic uses Surf, Froslass faints.
I send in Raikou.
I use Calm Mind. You send in Registeel.
I use Thunderbolt. You use Earthquake.
I use Thunderbolt, Registeel faints.

Once again, good game.

Again, if Registeel had recovery or didn't have an attacking stat weaker than that of my grandmothers, you may have had some form of an argument. However Registeel is stupidly easy to switch into, making "Raikou can hit it once, switch out, and come back in" a very very viable way of taking Registeel out with little-to-no effort.

Call Registeel whatever you want, but a "hard counter" to Raikou it isn't. Chansey is the only Pokemon that can do this; Raikou passes its other counters much to easily.
 
That's exactly the thing, though. Registeel is only going to be able to force Raikou out once. Registeel is going to switch in a large number of times in any given match, to handle threats like Mismagius, Swellow, Rotom, etc. It's taking quite a bit of passive damage from SR and resisted attacks alone, never mind Spikes. Raikou will maul it the next time it comes out.

This is essentially true for all Raikou's checks. They are all overcome after a bit of passive damage(except Chansey and Dugtrio). And that passive damage is extremely easy to accumulate.

Now, if only Registeel had Recover... *prays to game freak*
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Again, if Registeel had recovery or didn't have an attacking stat weaker than that of my grandmothers, you may have had some form of an argument. However Registeel is stupidly easy to switch into, making "Raikou can hit it once, switch out, and come back in" a very very viable way of taking Registeel out with little-to-no effort.

Call Registeel whatever you want, but a "hard counter" to Raikou it isn't. Chansey is the only Pokemon that can do this; Raikou passes its other counters much to easily.
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I might just be defining what is a counter and not on whether Raikou is BL or not, but the fact that you can force it out means Registeel is a counter to Raikou. You can technically say that you can Pursuit Blissey on the way out with TTar (to about 30%ish), then send in Empoleon for the Agility SubPetaya. Empy would kill Blissey next time she comes in, but Blissey is still definitely a counter to Empoleon. Pursuiting Blissey is a very viable option, and it isn't really too much support either, but you would never say that Blissey is not a good counter to Empoleon. Same with Registeel. While it is a problem that Registeel doesn't have the best longetivity due to fact that it needs to switch into attacks again and again, the fact that he can always beat Raikou initially means that he is proper counter. Again, you make other comparisons. Infernape can always chip down Latias by U-Turning, so the next time Latias switches in to take an attack from Ape, she's going to be killed on the switch-in.
 
shrang said:
I might just be defining what is a counter and not on whether Raikou is BL or not, but the fact that you can force it out means Registeel is a counter to Raikou. You can technically say that you can Pursuit Blissey on the way out with TTar (to about 30%ish), then send in Empoleon for the Agility SubPetaya. Empy would kill Blissey next time she comes in, but Blissey is still definitely a counter to Empoleon. Pursuiting Blissey is a very viable option, and it isn't really too much support either, but you would never say that Blissey is not a good counter to Empoleon. Same with Registeel. While it is a problem that Registeel doesn't have the best longetivity due to fact that it needs to switch into attacks again and again, the fact that he can always beat Raikou initially means that he is proper counter. Again, you make other comparisons. Infernape can always chip down Latias by U-Turning, so the next time Latias switches in to take an attack from Ape, she's going to be killed on the switch-in.
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There are a number of reasons that your argument does not apply:

1. Blissey can recover. It can heal itself back before Empoleon sets up a sweep, in fact it can even outstall TTar Pursuit IIRC.
2. Latias can recover.
3. Latias actually hurts; Registeel tickles (i.e. you can't just switch "anything in")
4. Registeel actually doesn't "ALWAYS" beat Raikou initially. It's called entry hazards.

I don't think you're getting anywhere by trying to convince us that a Pokemon who hits as hard as a dying mouse and is still 2HKOed by Thunderbolt after simple supporting methods qualifies is a hard counter for Raikou and not a simple "check". The actual evidence is quite on the contrary.
 
The continued leafeon discussion intrigues me...

you guys just using the max speed, max attack, jolly sd/lb/return/????

I haven't used leafeon since it was an NU monster... wonder if I still have one in the box..
 
Double-Edge with Synthesis could prove itself quite good, as it gets guaranteed OHKOes on Venusaur and Moltres after one SD (not factoring rocks for both).
 
I normally just run Life Orb with Return instead of Double-Edge. LO +2 pretty much always OHKOes Venusaur and Moltres (99.3% - 116.9% / 87.5% - 103.1%) and does more than Leftovers + Return (89.7% - 105.6% / 79.1% - 93.1%). While you do take 10% from the LO recoil when using Return, you don't have to worry about the 30% recoil that comes with OHKOing Venusaur with Double-Edge.
 
If I were inclined to use Raikou, it would be the easiest thing to remove its checks. Registeel just checks so much of the metagame that you can pick a random special sweeper, stick it on your team, and have it punch enough holes in Registeel that it's not going to be countering Raikou again. I use this strategy with Jynx, Mismagius, and Torterra and the combo is probably the reason for a lot of the my wins against stall on the ladder. It's especially funny how people try to stay in with Registeel and Ice Punch Torty (it does like 50%) and end up losing their only counter to two of the most dangerous sweepers in the metagame.

Regarding Leafeon, it's coverage is so shitty that Baton Pass is really the only viable move in the last slot. I can see the appeal behind QA, but Leafeon is much better off against any team without a Swellow or an Alakazam with Baton Pass. With Baton Pass, you can run those SD boosts to Arcanine, Feraligatr, Aggron, Techtop or, if you're against a Spiritomb, Swellow (lol). Hilarity will ensure.
 
stellar said:
I normally just run Life Orb with Return instead of Double-Edge. LO +2 pretty much always OHKOes Venusaur and Moltres (99.3% - 116.9% / 87.5% - 103.1%) and does more than Leftovers + Return (89.7% - 105.6% / 79.1% - 93.1%). While you do take 10% from the LO recoil when using Return, you don't have to worry about the 30% recoil that comes with OHKOing Venusaur with Double-Edge.
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I actually meant both LO and Double-Edge (I believe you meant DE + Leftovers, not Return). Yeah it's not really needed, but it's a great way to make sure you'll be getting that KO, especially if that's opening holes for other pokés to sweep, like a Venusaur of your own, Toxicroack and such.
 
Uhm, there are only a handful of Pokemon that can "stop" Leafeon... Steelix, Registeel, Weezing, Aggron... but as you said Leafeon can just pass it's boosts out or use Magmortar or Moltres or Blaziken and clear these guys out.

Anyways, with the inevitable Froslass and Raikou gone... UU is going to be dull as ever. Oh, well.
 
what do you mean by "stop"

Leafeon can still pass it's boosts away... as well as being able to hit them hard after SD.

Why is a balanced metagame "dull"? Because you don't get auto-wins and actually have to make a good team rather than sticking all of the suspects on your team?

Sure a balanced metagame will have its benefits but, simply put, I can only assume that teams will begin to look more similar and similar; in which case I would find to be bland. Only time can tell I suppose.

On a unrelated note, I used a Choice Scarf Omastar on my Hail team to check Moltres/ Arcanine and he turned out much better than expected. Being able to fire off Blizzard/Surf/HydroPump/EarthPower as well as outspeeding Moltres, Rotom, Venusaur, and most Arcanine... pretty effective. At least, from my experiences.
 
God Bless Atheism said:
Sure a balanced metagame will have its benefits but, simply put, I can only assume that teams will begin to look more similar and similar; in which case I would find to be bland. Only time can tell I suppose.
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I uh... I'm really not sure what to do with this statement. I... are you seriously saying we shouldn't try to balance the metagame? I'm not sure how to even respond to that premise, since the entire point of the suspect/voting process is to balance it as much as possible.

As far as the maligned originality argument, I think in general a "suspectless" metagame - as much as I'm doubting it'll ever get to that point in most people's perception as we seem to use the slippery slope method of nominating(trademark pending) - more Pokemon will be viable. With a handful of Pokemon that are too good for the others, the game tends to shift around those Pokemon, their counters, and their counters counters. In theory, with fewer suspects people worry about fewer specific threats, which allows them to branch out a little more without getting thwomped by a big threat. It's just Pokemon on some level now that the game has so many mons in it, though - that's why so many people find stall appealing. I digress, but I'm not sure what value variety just for the sake of variety has either way - more isn't inherently better, though I do find it desirable.

A lot of why banning for originality(although you're saying not to ban for the same reason, figured it was related...) doesn't tend to work real well is that there's always substitutes - look at Charizard usage next month if Moltres gets banned, for instance.
 
Leafeon last move should always be Baton Pass.

I mean, Leaf Blade and Return/Double Edge has enough coverage. Anytime you are against someone that can mean trouble, just Baton Pass the boost to someone.

Nidoking best use is here. Getting SD boosts. It easily comes on Thunder Waves and Toxics, and it just troubles many stall teams relying on status.
 
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