Salamence Theorymonning

[SJCrew]

I know what I'm talking about, and let me say from experience and common sense that Weavile is absolutely outclassed by Scizor and can cover nothing that a well built team couldn't.

A well-built team can have Weavile on it because Weavile can contribute to teams that are Dragon/Rotom weak by getting rid of them before they do any major damage. And Weavile doesn't get trapped by Magnezone while it tries to revenge something (don't give me that "U-turn all the time" bullshit because it doesn't work AT ALL). And besides, you don't need your entire team to beat those Pokemon when you could just use Weavile.

At best it trades a 1-1 score (you lose something, Weavile comes in to clean up)

Like Infernape. Except Infernape isn't immune to anything and has to gimp one of its defensive stats to run its most effective sets. Fire/Fighting won't let it switch in on shit, at least nothing more than Weavile (you can still try to switch them in on TTar's Crunch, but it's not like either of them will appreciate taking the hit).

Also your list is partial bullshit. An Aerodactyl trapper is of no use to an OU team. And how does Weavile revenge kill Lucario. Seriously man, think.

Low Kick OHKOs Lucario. And no we're not coming in on SD, we're coming in after Luke Espeeds something to death (hurr durr double revenge). Revenging Aerodactyl is useful for an offensive team because it's faster than everything and can cause some damage before it dies. I didn't say anything about it being a massive offensive threat or top OU, just that Weavile can revenge it (and furthermore, without taking a hit), which is a good thing because that means it's doing its job properly

On topic about Salamence, I don't have much to say that hasn't been said already.

because you didn't enter this topic to talk about salamence, just waste my time with another useless post about weavile

Porygon2 can counter Heatran, Vaporeon, Gyarados, Jolteon and DDmence

That is neither a large nor impressive list and P2 still loses to Tormentran and Toxic Stall from Vappy.

 

[Boondocker]

Mence broken? If it was broken why doesn't everyone and their mother have a weavile?

Because weavile is outclassed by scizor. Everyone and their mother has a scizor dont they?

That is neither a large nor impressive list and P2 still loses to Tormentran and Toxic Stall from Vappy.

And batton pass jolt

i
Take it into a real battle and the outcome won't be what you have written down.

Yes, they will. Most of us have been playing with him/against him forever. (note that he only became broken in platinum)

 

[WarriorPrince]

If anything the only thing that makes Mence anything close to being an Uber is it's versatility. I don't think he is Uber, but with Salamence it truly is a game of "pick your poison." Salamence is a force to be reckoned with, but he is bog standard enough to be predictable.

Mence is not "broken." There is only a small, invisible "crack" on him.

 

[SJCrew]

Mence broken? If it was broken why doesn't everyone and their mother have a weavile?

Weavile is a very niche Pokemon and doesn't fit onto a lot of teams.

Because weavile is outclassed by scizor. Everyone and their mother has a scizor dont they?

yeah, unless you want to kill gengar, rotom, or mence reliably

there's a bigger list but really, it's not worth the time this post took to make

 

[Boondocker]

Weavile is a very niche Pokemon and doesn't fit onto a lot of teams.


yeah, unless you want to kill gengar, rotom, or mence reliably


there's a bigger list but really, it's not worth the time this post took to make

Scizor is better at killing scarf rotom since he can actually take a hit from thunderbolt. Also he has much better typeing and is more useful against stall teams.

If anything the only thing that makes Mence anything close to being an Uber is it's versatility. I don't think he is Uber, but with Salamence it truly is a game of "pick your poison." Salamence is a force to be reckoned with, but he is bog standard enough to be predictable.

Mence is not "broken." There is only a small, invisible "crack" on him.

Just because hes predectable doesnt mean you can stop him. And i mean predecable once you know the set. Finding the set out is often very deadly.

 

[Aqueos]

Well it can also use low kick to kill choice scarf t-tar. My point really is if mence is the scariest threat ever why doesn't everyone have the perfect counter? Really choice scarf rachi is really good at killing mence. Choice band mamoswine anyone? Choice scarf latias. Mence also has an sr weakness that wears it down. Besides scizor can defeat all its counters (other than just getting walled) with superpower or escape with u-turn. It hasn't been suspect once. Priority anyone? Just because it is annoying doesn't mean its broken. You just need really good prediction. EDIT Latias is uber? Well then I don't quite know. But still why doesn't sal have the #1 slot then.

 

[Hooker Punch]

I compare Salamence to Raikou in the last round of UU. Raikou was banned under the offensive characteristic, due to exactly one thing: it's versatility. He could run about a thousand different sets, and each one needed a different counter.

The argument against Salamence is the same as Raikou, so I say if we banned Raikou, we need to ban Salamence.

 

[Mufasa]

Scarf jirachi is a tie, banded mamoswine kinda sucks against everything else, latias is banned. Scizor gets destroyed by magnezone (or at least the choice scarf ones which actually make sense to use) and gets walled by a lot of bulky waters which can set up on it.

 

[JonTheRed]

Well it can also use low kick to kill choice scarf t-tar. My point really is if mence is the scariest threat ever why doesn't everyone have the perfect counter? Really choice scarf rachi is really good at killing mence. Choice band mamoswine anyone? Choice scarf latias. Mence also has an sr weakness that wears it down. Besides scizor can defeat all its counters (other than just getting walled) with superpower or escape with u-turn. It hasn't been suspect once. Priority anyone? Just because it is annoying doesn't mean its broken. You just need really good prediction.

Scizor has worse STAB and doesn't have a base 110 Special Attack stat to fall back on. Yes, Scizor can break some of its counters, but with a move that pretty much guarantees it will have to switch right after; most Mence sets don't care about Draco Meteor's stat drop because they still have Outrage and/or Earthquake to fall back on.

EDIT Latias is uber? Well then I don't quite know. But still why doesn't sal have the #1 slot then.

Latias was banned very recently; the latest usage stats wouldn't reflect it yet.

 

[Aqueos]

@hooker Uh dude. Almost all sala sets can be countered by the same thing. (except some random gimmick) Weavile and choice band mamo are flawless. I see your point jon, but doesn't u-turn allow you to bring in a counter?EDIT switched sides when I found out about lati.

 

[Aeron Ee1]

Salamence is effing hard to predict. The scenarios you guys have been discussing are all correct, all of them can happen with the right prediction. It's just hard to do all of those because of Salamence's versatility.

The main counter I use so far is Porygon2 which I EVd in sp.def and hp, just about enough to survive 2 draco meteors or draco meteor + outrage. Then I proceed with Ice Beam or Recover. Choice scarfed Salamence will get raped by Porygon2, in my experience.

Off-topic, I know but I don't think that's possible.

240 SpA Naive Life Orb Draco Meteor to 252HP / 252 SpD Calm Porygon2 - 52.1%-61.8%

A second Draco Meteor would do a total of(factoring Leftovers recovery from the previous turn) 72.6%-87.1%. Now that's all fine and dandy but what about Outrage?

-1 16 Atk Naive Life Orb Outrage does 42.8% - 50.8%. With the Draco Meteor, it does 88.9% - 106.6%, which means that its a clean KO with Stealth Rocks and only a small chance to survive without. =\

There's something wrong with a Pokemon when the best Utility counter in the Pokemon universe can't counter it.

EDIT: Dragon is a different kind of STAB, whereas Fire, Ground, Ice and Fighting focus on super-effective coverage, Dragon, Water and Electric focus on neutral coverage. Its all preference. Like power vs reliability. >_>

 

[Efemera]

My point really is if mence is the scariest threat ever why doesn't everyone have the perfect counter?

You just answered why Salamence is broken.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Well it can also use low kick to kill choice scarf t-tar. My point really is if mence is the scariest threat ever why doesn't everyone have the perfect counter? Really choice scarf rachi is really good at killing mence. Choice band mamoswine anyone? Choice scarf latias. Mence also has an sr weakness that wears it down. Besides scizor can defeat all its counters (other than just getting walled) with superpower or escape with u-turn. It hasn't been suspect once. Priority anyone? Just because it is annoying doesn't mean its broken. You just need really good prediction.

Please stop mentioning Lati.

Since it's common knowledge you have to float in order to withstand Kyogre in Ubers, and since Floatzels float (I'd use Farfy but he still sux in Ubers) we put her onto a scale with a Floatzel to determine if she'd float in a Kyogre's Water Spout and thus be Uber.

Latias weighed the same as Floatzel, even with the fake Soul Dew she had on. She was shortly disposed of by the Killer Lopunny of Caer-bannog, and she has been trying to dodge rent on Mount Coronet ever since. She has been subjected to the Leaf Storms of a thousand Smugleafs because of this and is no longer a factor in determining if Salamence is broken or not.

Thank you.

And...couldn't Mence switch out?

 

[Agent123]

I don't think that Salamence is as versatile as you guys make him look like. There are really only two sets that Salamence uses, Mixmence and DD Mence. Not many people use the other kinds. That being said, I think Swampert is pretty good against Mence. It can survive an attack and then KO it with Ice Beam.

 

[Aqueos]

Since lati is gone I thinkI'm going to switch sides here. Mence is broken without lati around. Yes lati wasn't perfect but if were kicking it out Mence is getting the boot. Agent you have to take 2 attacks or a +1 attack.

 

[JonTheRed]

I don't think that Salamence is as versatile as you guys make him look like. There are really only two sets that Salamence uses, Mixmence and DD Mence. Not many people use the other kinds. That being said, I think Swampert is pretty good against Mence. It can survive an attack and then KO it with Ice Beam.

As many previous posts have noted, there are counters to the DDMence and MixMence sets, and revenge killers that can stop Salamence's sweep. However, none of these three categories have any overlap whatsoever. And if you make the wrong choice, you probably just lost.

 

[Boondocker]

@hooker Uh dude. Almost all sala sets can be countered by the same thing. (except some random gimmick) Weavile and choice band mamo are flawless. I see your point jon, but doesn't u-turn allow you to bring in a counter?

Weavile and mamo cant switch in. They can only revenge after hes killed something. That means hes done his job.

Scarf jirachi is a tie, banded mamoswine kinda sucks against everything else, latias is banned. Scizor gets destroyed by magnezone (or at least the choice scarf ones which actually make sense to use) and gets walled by a lot of bulky waters which can set up on it.

Exactly

I don't think that Salamence is as versatile as you guys make him look like. There are really only two sets that Salamence uses, Mixmence and DD Mence. Not many people use the other kinds. That being said, I think Swampert is pretty good against Mence. It can survive an attack and then KO it with Ice Beam.

Yes,but the two sets require COMPLETELY different counters. Swampert gets 2hok'd (almost 1hkd) by mixmence.

Im gonna list counters by set to prove there is no overlap:

Dd mence counters: P2, hippodown, max health swampert, defensive suicune with ice beam

Mixmence counters: none

Specs counters: Blissey, defensive empoleon

Band counters: none

Revenge killers: scizor (mag bait), weavile, mamo (both suck), scarf starmie (pursuit bait)

Please tell me if i forgot some so i can add to this list (cress fails horribly so its not going up)

 

[Aqueos]

Yeah not to mention the following extremely rare threats.
Choice Specs/(to a certain extent) special mence-Blissey
Choice Scarf Mence(mixmence with choice scarf) this does revenging.... weavile mamo stuff that resists locked in move.

 

[shrang]

Intimidate is what lets Salamence switch in. You can't just ignore that. Dragonite is just as easily 1hkoed by all the Ice attacks that 1hko Salamence.

With the exception of Ice Shard, stuff like Swampert's Ice Beam never OHKOs Bulky Dragonite, meaning Nite can just Roost off the damage and continue DDing. The Cleric Dancer set makes Ice Beam look like even more of a joke:

• Bold 0 SpA Cresselia using Ice Beam: 40.41% - 48.70%
• Dragonite using Roost: 20.21% - 24.35%
• Calm 80 SpA Blissey using Ice Beam: 45.60% - 53.89%
• Dragonite using Roost: 22.80% - 26.94%
• Bold 0 SpA Vaporeon using Ice Beam: 55.96% - 66.32%
• Dragonite using Roost: 27.98% - 33.16%
• Timid 252 SpA Heatran using Hidden Power Ice: 58.03% - 68.39%
• Dragonite using Roost: 29.02% - 34.20%

I feel the need to respond to this post. Latias was voted OU simply because the Specs set wasn't made standard. I mean think about it. Shortly after Latias was allowed into the OU metagame there wasn't anything really wrong with this pokemon. It had it's counters (Ttar, CBlax, Blissey) It's checks (Scizor + any scarf user) It was your run of the mill top tier OU pokemon. The specs set changed that however.

Back then, when people were running CM sets and what not, a simple switch into Ttar dealt with Latias soundly. Blissey also walled it to hell and back (unless it was the CM Refresh set, but that set lacks healing) Personally, I never had any problems beating Latias when it was the CM sweeper set.

When the Specs set became standard, that's when Latias was overwhelmingly powerful. Suddenly Ttar wasn't a good enough *counter* as Specs Surf 2HKO. (I think that's when scarf Ttar was made for that reason...) That set (in my opinion) broke Latias.

That's just my 2 cents.

It's not like the Specs set didn't exist back then... =O. Anyway, TTar was actually still a fine enough counter for Latias. At good health, he could switch into Latias every time and force it out. People like Phil really overestimated the odds in which Latias won. I remember on the Smogcast, there was a bit on "ScarfTar can only beat Latias 50% of the time, while Garchomp was beaten 80% of the time". Really?? Should Latias and Tar both stay in, Latias was beaten 100% of the time to Crunch, just like Weavile beat Garchomp 80% of the time with Ice Shard should Sand be up and Chomp did not carry Yache. Also TTar would still maul Latias every time if he just ran a bulky set (252 HP/56 Atk/200 SpD Careful, which takes a +1 Aura Sphere from Mewtwo for God sake).

Also, congrats if your team is "resistant" to Mence. Your team is one of the MINORITY which can prevent a Mence sweep or rampage. Now look at the MAJORITY which struggles, despite having months to try to adapt.

Most people can deal with Salamence, FYI, albeit with some slight difficulty. Does this difficulty justify a ban?? Maybe, maybe not.

Predictable my ass. You literally have a 50/50% chance of your Salamence counter actually *beating* mence.

While 50/50 might be there in terms of moveset, people would usually start off by launching an Earthquake at something especially when immune Pokemon can just switch in and rape its ass. At least from experience, most people would fire off DM first since it's Mence's safest move.

Like WHAT? +1 Mence 2HKOs everything in the game easily.

So does CB Dragonite, and CB Tyranitar, and Gengar.

 

[Veles]

So does CB Dragonite, and CB Tyranitar, and Gengar.

Dragonite is quite a bit slower, Tyranitar is flat out slow. Gengar dies to anything that looks at it funny.

 

[Nosferalto]

I actually agree about Salamence deserving a Suspect for the main and simple reason that there is no reliable counter / check that works well in the metagame. Due to it's versatility and it's ability to hit hard from both sides of the attacking spectrum, nothing can switch-in safely without taking a risk and retaliate.

All DD Salamence checks are unreliable. CB Scizor cannot revenge kill unless Salamence has taken Stealth Rock damage and one turn of Life Orb damage, so if it is paired with a Rapid Spinner, Scizor cannot come in and revenge kill it. Bulky Salamence with Leftovers takes advantage of Scizor as well and sets-up on it.
Scarf Jirachi and Scarf Flygon are also shaky checks because both only manage to tie with Jolly Salamence after a DD. Swampert and Hippowdon are also pretty bad checks against the Dragon Dancer because both must be at full health to take a +1 Life Orb Outrage. Cresselia is possibly the only probable Salamence counter because it can take on every set Salamence has to offer but with Tyranitar and Scizor almost on every team, I doubt it's effectiveness. The best Salamence revenge killers are surely Mamoswine and Weavile since they boast Ice Shard and can easily take care of it when it is locked into an Outrage, but similarly to Cresselia, Scizor is on approximately 30% of all teams and can take on both with ease and have little effectiveness outside of revenge killing Salamence. Some may argue that Salamence's worst ennemy is residual damage but the fact that it has access to a recovery move in the form of Roost and the fact that it is commonly paired with a Rapid Spinner are against this argument. In conclusion, the fact that it's only reliable checks do not work well in the current metagame convinces me that Salamence deserves a Suspect test for sure.

 

[SubVersion]

My thoughts:

• Stealth Rock, the entry hazard that is almost always on the field.
  
  Stealth Rock not only lowers Salamence's general survivability, but also prevents Intimidate abuse, which I think is an important point. The "Better defenses than Dragonite" argument is rather unconvincing given how little Salamence can realistically Intimidate a foe without becoming too low on HP for it to matter.
  
  Perhaps more critical than anything else, though, is that Stealth Rock lowers Salamence's own chances of getting onto the field. If sacrificing a Pokemon is the only way to get beat Salamence - hence the "guaranteed kill" line of thinking - then surely sacrificing a Pokemon is also the only safe way the Salamence user has of getting his guaranteed kill? A Salamence that has taken Rocks damage, as well as an attack on the switch-in, is not nearly as bulky as many in this thread would like to claim. His defenses aren't so good that he doesn't need 25-50% of his health to get his "certain" kill.
  
  
  (Yes, you can switch him in on Earthquake or a resisted attack, but that relies on prediction. If we're not assuming perfect prediction on behalf of Salamence's opponent, then it isn't fair to offer it to Salamence.)
  
  
• Survivability. This isn't just a reiteration of the point above, although that is part of it.
  
  The most deadly Salamence sets - the ones that arguably meet the Offensive Uber criteria - all have Life Orb. Switching in on Rocks and launching a single attack leaves Salamence with a 35% HP deficit. This is true even if we charitably assume that Salamence switches in without taking an attack.
  
  Then there's Sandstorm. Before the tirade of "You can't assume your opponent has set every field hazard!", let me just point out that April's usage statistics show that Tyranitar - and subsequently Sandstorm - are in fact more common than Salamence himself. If the threat of a Salamence sweep really is "ever-present", to the point where he is such a concern that the game is becoming over-centralized, then it would be dishonest to say that Sandstorm lacks a similar "ever-presentness". If we can "assume Salamence", then we can "assume Sandstorm" with only slightly less certainty.
  
  So to recap: In a situation almost as common as Salamence himself, it costs Salamence a minimum 60% of his health to get in and attack.
  
  This is not bulk.
  
  Roost mitigates this issue to a certain degree, but not enough to make it a non-issue. Not by a long shot. Plus, he's sacrificing Fire Blast for the priviledge.
  
  
• Usage. This will be brief because I don't hold to the belief that usage is necessarily indicative of tiering (I was a firm believer in Wobbuffet's Uber status despite nobody using him). However, look at Salamence's April usage: 20%. 1 in 4. That isn't a statistic that suggests over-centralization by any means. He is simply not dominating the ladder to the exaggerated extent that some people in this discussion are claiming.
  
  
• No parallels to Garchomp. That they are in any way comparable is a complete and utter myth, yet it is an argument still being used by some. Why?
  
  The issue with Yache Berry Garchomp was that it could not be killed without first killing something itself. This is why he became Uber, not because of any of his individual traits. Prediction didn't matter when it came to Yache sets: Something was going to die.
  
  The same cannot be said of Salamence. You can outpredict a Salamence, and Salamence needs to outpredict you if it wants its "Guaranteed Kill". In that way, it isn't guaranteed at all; If you manage to force Salamence out once - which is not at all impossible - then it will find itself with no health left to spare when it switched back in. It becomes very, very beatable unless it outpredicts you right off the bat... Which as just as likely to happen as it is likely to not.
  
  On the defensive side, they are again worlds apart. Garchomp resisted Stealth Rock, never carried a Life Orb, had immunity to Sandstorm and - when paired with Tyranitar or Hippowdon (which every sane player did) - was immune to damage 20% of the time. Oh, and his three defensive stats are all superior to Salamence's. Compared to Garchomp, Salamence is a positively frail.
  
  I'm aware that "Salamence isn't as good as Garchomp" is not an argument against it being Uber, in the same way that "Garchomp isn't as good as Kyogre" is not a reason to rethink Garchomp's tiering. However, after reading through much of this thread, I've seen far too many people try to falsely draw parallels between Garchomp and Salamence when they don't actually exist. This needs to stop.

This whole thing seems to boil down to a general dislike of "predictive guessing", which I find puzzling. The fact that Salamence has different sets and different counters is not in any way a convincing reason to relocate him to Ubers. The guesswork involved when your first see an enemy Salamence is not only temporary - differences in EVs, natures and movesets between his most popular sets give you more than enough to go on after Salamence makes his first move - but also is not exclusive to Salamence. If I switch Skarmory into Salamence, expecting an Outrage but eating a Fire Blast instead, how is that different to switching Blissey into Gengar and dying to Focus Punch or Explosion? Why is Porygon2 taking an unexpected Draco Meteor from Salamence different to a Gyarados taking an unexpected Specs HP Rock from Lucario? There are numerous Pokemon who will always kill you if you guess wrong. And that's really what Salamence has: A guaranteed kill... if his opponent guesses wrong. It isn't unique, and it isn't a convincing reason to ban him. His ability to do it with greater regularity than the likes of Gengar and Lucario only supports the claim that Salamence is a better Pokemon than them, not that he is broken. Too many people are relying on this argument without realizing it does not imply Uber.

I personally couldn't care less about Salamence, really, but I do care that a competitive community - who I really do believe have been correct in every 4th Gen tiering they've made so far - could actually be considering a Pokemon ban based on such logically inconsistent, feeble arguments.

 

[Nosferalto]

However, look at Salamence's April usage: 20%. 1 in 4.

It's 1/5

 

[george182]

I have never previously thought of mence as uber. But now you mention it, he fills all the criteria. Not a solid counter, has amazing unpredictability. Two overpowered stab moves (dracco meteor + Outrag) combine this with one of the best attack stats and one of the best sp.atk stats in OU. Then add the fact that he has dragon dance, and amazing movepool.

Now although usage in uber is never a factor, salamence is actually used in uber with success due to the fact it works well with rayquaza.

Also stealth rock is not a counter argument, why? Because if SR keeps salamene out of Uber, then why HO OH still in uber. I know HO-OH stats are insain. But if you think about it, she has the same attack and sp.atk as salamence, and she has an even worse SR weakness. She is also slower than salamence, and does not have a decent set up move and is therfore more predictable. Mence is actually more offensive than HO-OH! and has less of an SR weakness, yet HO OH is uber because it's too offensive and overpowered in OU, while mence is OU cause he has an SR weakness. They contradict each other. Ho oh's main advanatage is amasing sp.def and that is it really, a better hp stat, but due to SR definately a worse typing.

Bassicaly Salamence is uber by all criteria. The last nail in the cofin for Garchomp was his ability sand veil. Well intimidate is arguably an even better ability.

Then we get onto how would it affect your team. I always carry 2 checks, for mence, one for the DD set and one for the mix set. DD mence is also the main reason people put a scarf on gengar, starmie, latias etc.

Scizor has risen high in useage, and this may be because he is a check to salamence along with his other useful roles. But I garuntee the metagame will completely change if mence goes to uber. If scizor went not much would change, because he does not centralise the metagame.

What is the point in uber, to make the game more balanced, more fun. I would definitely prefer it if mence was uber.

Then compair salamence to 3 solid OU's, Gyrados, kingdra and dragonite. In terms of sweeping they are very simular, but salamence outclasses all of them in terms of attacking stats, both speed and attack. Yet they are still used, because they are still good, is just Mence is Uber good. This leaves me to my last point, salamence won't be missed, because there are many OU's to fill his role.

 

[Roizen]

You don't need prediction nor a sacrifice to bring Salamence in on a Skarmory or a Gliscor, two very effective pokémon, both with high usage, which can't do shit to Salamence, are slower and get OHKOed by it. Salamence also comes with impunity in half of Scarf TTar's (which usage is as high as Mence's) moveset (Pursuit and Superpower/EQ).

Bringin Mence to the field is not hard at all and does not require any sacrifice.