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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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You could just run ScarfRotom. It's great for DNite too since it actually outruns it (unlike Mence). Overheat or HP Ice/Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball/Trick or which you didn't pick in the first slot. I can see ScarfRotom becoming really useful in handling Starmie and Gengar too.
I'm surprised people aren't talking about using CB Tyranitar to break Stall. CB Stone Edge will 2HKO 4 HP Blissey and stadard Skarmory after Stealth Rock and will OHKO Rest Talk Gyarados after Intimidate and SR. Swampert and Gliscor can take it, but a Water-type like Gyarados can take care of them.
So after my first day of playtesting, I'll just note what I saw that surprised me.
Infernape not running U-Turn is just stupid. Since Starmie is so common, I would think hitting it for 70% or so with U-Turn would be enticing, but I guess not. NP Ape is a serious threat to stall teams without Starmie or a dedicated revenge-killer. Since most stall teams run Gyarados or Scarf Rotom, all you need is Stealth Rock out or Tyranitar to Pursuit Rotom-H or Starmie and Ape runs wild.
Roar Heatran is just fabulous. It's such a great anti-stall Pokemon and a great shuffler of entry hazards. Obviously its gonna dish out less damage, but its great resistances make it extremely hard to take down.
I'm really surprised at how often I've seen Lucario, which is zero by the way. It seems like it would have a field day with stall that doesn't use Scarf Rotom-H. Just use Stone Edge Lucario and heavy-stall is in for some trouble.
Crocune is as dangerous as ever. Because not many teams use Trick, it can basically dismantle full stall teams after a few Calm Mind boosts. Definitely something to be weary about.
Oh, and while I'm on the topic of beating stall, give MixNite a try. If you thought Salamence was bad enough for stall to handle, try handling Dragonite who basically will 2HKO everything on a stall team that's common on the suspect ladder currently.
Infernape not running U-Turn is just stupid. Since Starmie is so common, I would think hitting it for 70% or so with U-Turn would be enticing, but I guess not. NP Ape is a serious threat to stall teams without Starmie or a dedicated revenge-killer. Since most stall teams run Gyarados or Scarf Rotom, all you need is Stealth Rock out or Tyranitar to Pursuit Rotom-H or Starmie and Ape runs wild.
Roar Heatran is just fabulous. It's such a great anti-stall Pokemon and a great shuffler of entry hazards. Obviously its gonna dish out less damage, but its great resistances make it extremely hard to take down.
I'm really surprised at how often I've seen Lucario, which is zero by the way. It seems like it would have a field day with stall that doesn't use Scarf Rotom-H. Just use Stone Edge Lucario and heavy-stall is in for some trouble.
Crocune is as dangerous as ever. Because not many teams use Trick, it can basically dismantle full stall teams after a few Calm Mind boosts. Definitely something to be weary about.
Oh, and while I'm on the topic of beating stall, give MixNite a try. If you thought Salamence was bad enough for stall to handle, try handling Dragonite who basically will 2HKO everything on a stall team that's common on the suspect ladder currently.
Dragonite has 100% replaced Mence in the suspect testing. He is on every team. His DD Outrage is equally as powerful as Salamence's. He also fills out perfect coverage. He can also run a wallbreaking set even easier (for against stall, not offense). Is Dragonite broken too? This I ask you. Speed doesn't matter much when you're behind a DD and the only option for either is to revenge kill, now does it? They're on the same level and, at the moment, Dragonite usage is completely ridiculous. It is honestly on 90%+ of the teams I've seen.
On another note, I've personally seen 0 stall teams out of the ~20 games i've played. I am even running one of those Mix Dragonites just for stall. heh.
I've seen a rise in Jolteon + Suicune.. not really Starmie.. Scizor is as consistent as ever, as well as any other random Poke. Your experiences may differ. lol
On another note, I've personally seen 0 stall teams out of the ~20 games i've played. I am even running one of those Mix Dragonites just for stall. heh.
I've seen a rise in Jolteon + Suicune.. not really Starmie.. Scizor is as consistent as ever, as well as any other random Poke. Your experiences may differ. lol
So what you're saying is Infernape IS a good stall breaker?
You missed my point. Despite losing Salamence and Latias to a lesser extent doesn't mean stall is any better than it was pre-platinum.
Just resort to old tactics like Tyraniboah or mixed wall breaker "X". Stall still falls apart to well played offense.
What I'm wondering, is what's going to happen to scizor; With latias gone, and salamence probably going also, is scizor going to have a considerable drop in usage? Add that to the fact that pokemon like infernape and gyarados - a check, and relative counter respectively, rising in usage with the loss of latias. And other pokemon like starmie will rise to counter the said Gyarados and Infernape. Which, in turn, with the decrease in scizors will mean that pokemon that weren't often used, because of scizor will spike as well. I think that the ban of latias with affect the metagame a lot more than was originaly though.
I only played a handful of Suspect games and didn't make it very high on the ladder yet, but I didn't see a single Scizor. I think Scizor usage will drop drastically. Its STABs are terrible for sweeping, +2 BP only does 30~40% to Pokemon that resist it like Zapdos, and revenge killing is much less important in the Suspect metagame, since the two most powerful sweepers have been banned. Hell, Weavile may fall straight out of OU.
Infernape is not a good stall breaker. Mixed /=/ stall breaker. It = skarmbliss counter. Stall has 4 other members. Dusknoir or spiritmob (rotom may have resistances, but his defences are low, stall usually neeeds flat out stats not typing), resttalk gyra (somepeople use t-punch), cressilia, etc. all beat infernape. In fact, some of the best stall breakers aren't mixed. Crocune, gliscor, shaymin (very underated against stall, if you have some hazards up to take advantage of the switches) works well if you brong him on hippo, since even bliss will have trouble of shaywin gets lucky with seed flare drops, tauntrados (why doesn't gyra get roost augh), bandtar, and, my personal favorite, you all remmber this from R/S and early D/P, heracross. So underated against stall. I use a swords dance flame orb set. If I can keep rocks down, he beats bulkygyra, gliscor, bliss(duh), skarmory, zapdos (only defensive versions are outsped), etc. On paper it fails against offense, but if you bring him in to revenge, everyone will assume scarf while you hit the switchin. No real use swords dancing. If you used megahorn > close combat, he has enough bulk to survive most physical hits(but will probably die to burn orb) and will pretty much never be OHKO'ed by a non-super effective speciel hits. Now if only he got mach punch to pwn those infernape and heatrans.
Oh and im also running sub-pain split gar with life orb. People are so ignorant about this set, easy way to take out bliss. Then my calm mind offensive cune comes in on hippo and wins the game
Oh and im also running sub-pain split gar with life orb. People are so ignorant about this set, easy way to take out bliss. Then my calm mind offensive cune comes in on hippo and wins the game
Class said:
I've seen several Dragonite on the ladder and it does not compare to Mence at all. Speed does matter even when you're behind a DD with Base 80 speed. Shit like Rotom-A is able to revenge effectively. Hell. I even saw a couple of Scarfed Kingdra being used the same way ScarfLatias was used for Salamence. Salamence was only able to be revenged by the Base 100 Rachi, a 50% chance, and the ones with above base 100 Spe, but they were hardly viable, especially with the best Pursuit users in the game being Number 1 and 2 in Usage. Please, Dragonite is not anywhere near broken and that is all due to its awful speed.
On a side note, I saw 3 Dragonite in my 15(undefeated:]) battles, so I'm not sure it's going to fill Mence's shoes.
Nasty Plot Ape says hi:
252 Naive Life Orb Infernape +2 Fire Blast
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Dusknoir(Standard Tank Set) : 114.6% - 135%
252 Naive Life Orb Infernape +2 Fire Blast
vs. 252/252 Calm Leftovers Dusknoir : 86.7% - 102%
252 Naive Life Orb Infernape +2 Fire Blast
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Cresselia(Standard Support) : 78.4% - 92.6%
252 Naive Life Orb Infernape +2 Fire Blast
vs. 252/252 Calm Leftovers Cresselia : 59% - 69.6%
252 Naive Life Orb Infernape +2 Grass Knot
vs. 248/0 Impish Leftovers Gyarados(Standard RestTalk) : 74% - 87.3%
Nasty Plot Ape can easily 1 or 2HKO every pokemon on a stall team. And don't give me any it'll never set up bull shit either. More power to you if you are ballsy enough to leave Skarmory or Blissey in on Infernape
I'll have to play the Suspect Ladder a couple times tomorrow. Maybe. Might be a little while.
The only thing that I am praying for with this council is that we aren't going to vote Salamence in this dire hope to replicate ADV or something. I put full faith that this council will make a good decision, but at the same time there is a minor amount of skepticism from me. Don't take it personal though; I just want what's best for the metagame without going through a "ban-happy" nature.
Stall being prevalent makes me a little sad though. AgiliGross won't be as cool school anymore.
The only thing that I am praying for with this council is that we aren't going to vote Salamence in this dire hope to replicate ADV or something. I put full faith that this council will make a good decision, but at the same time there is a minor amount of skepticism from me. Don't take it personal though; I just want what's best for the metagame without going through a "ban-happy" nature.
Stall being prevalent makes me a little sad though. AgiliGross won't be as cool school anymore.
The number of MixGon is surprising. I tried it, and it is pretty underwhelming.
This is kind of like Little Cup without Misdreavus, Dragonit can DD like Mence, Flygon can abuse Choice Scarf like it, Ape can break stall somewhat like it, but nothing can do all the jobs that it could do. I wonder, which of the three will rise the most in usage?
This is kind of like Little Cup without Misdreavus, Dragonit can DD like Mence, Flygon can abuse Choice Scarf like it, Ape can break stall somewhat like it, but nothing can do all the jobs that it could do. I wonder, which of the three will rise the most in usage?
Although those calcs are impresive, if t-spikes are up, infernape will be worn down quick.
stealth rock (no spikes included, makes you last like 2 less turns) + toxic damage + sandstorm damage + life orb = 24 on the nasty plot turn, 28 on the next turn, 34 on the next turn, so you get a turn to setup and 3 attacks, 2 if there's spikes. Consider that most stall blissey are wishers to support the team, with protect, you get 1 turn. Now granted, that 1 turn can destroy stall with the right prediction, but if they go to hippo wile you close combat or bliss while you grass knot, you lose. I guess if you bring infernape out before t-spikes are up he can be troublesome, but I think this is similar to Ubers stall, where a good stall team must have an offensive scarfer (palkia is common in ubers) like scarftar to function. Most stall teams also carry tentacruel anyway.
P.S. my offensive team carrys skarm for rocks, and I would always leave him in to whirlwind. I don't like suicide leads, and my team doesn't need hazards much. I love anti lead dragonite, though I'll probably have to get a suicide lead and a rotom counter, every team has rotom and my only hope is to revenge with gengar, if it's scarved, hope I get it to about 50% for flygon.
Pair infernape up with spinner starmie (this is the set I use)
Starmie @ Life Orb
Timid
136 HP/156 Def/ 216 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
Hydro Pump 2HKO's every common set of Rotom, then you're free to spin.
I know right?? People have absolutely forgotten how much of a terror NP MixApe used to be. The only thing that can take it is probably Cresselia, Vaporeon and Tentacruel. Of these three, only Tentacruel avoids beings 2HKO'd, so the most Cress and Vappy can afford to switch in on Ape is ONCE.
Some things I noticed (also posting here for personal reference)
SO MANY BAGWORMS I have seen more Forry's than I have ever seen in my life, no Mence to fear means they can come out.
Heatran pretty much stayed the same.
Starmie is more popular than I have noticed.
Breloom <3 is fairly common. As is Celebi and Shaymin (EVEN THOUGH I HAVE HORRIBLE LUCK WITH THE LATTER >:/)
Machamp is so-so.
Infernape is on the rise.
As expected, Flygon, Dragonite and Kingdra are more popular, all fighting for the spot as most used Dragon. Imo, Specs Kingdra + DD Nite will be a deadly combo, gonna make a team starring those two tomorrow.
TauntDos is pretty popular. Fairly annoying too. :|
Old DP shit like the ULTIMATE REVENGE KILLING COMBO OF SCARFTRAN/SCARFTAR actually work (lol).
Machamp as leads. :(
Stuff I have seen less of:
Gliscor which is semi-suprising when you look at the list of stuff on the rise.
Jirachi is declining in usage (which is more broken than Mence imo but thats neither here nor there).
Tyranitar isn't as common from what I've seen.
Thats just what I've noticed from my limited time playing. Mostly because the rest of my time was spent trying to hack off my leg with a butter knife from all the hax I was getting.
SO MANY BAGWORMS I have seen more Forry's than I have ever seen in my life, no Mence to fear means they can come out.
Heatran pretty much stayed the same.
Starmie is more popular than I have noticed.
Breloom <3 is fairly common. As is Celebi and Shaymin (EVEN THOUGH I HAVE HORRIBLE LUCK WITH THE LATTER >:/)
Machamp is so-so.
Infernape is on the rise.
As expected, Flygon, Dragonite and Kingdra are more popular, all fighting for the spot as most used Dragon. Imo, Specs Kingdra + DD Nite will be a deadly combo, gonna make a team starring those two tomorrow.
TauntDos is pretty popular. Fairly annoying too. :|
Old DP shit like the ULTIMATE REVENGE KILLING COMBO OF SCARFTRAN/SCARFTAR actually work (lol).
Machamp as leads. :(
Stuff I have seen less of:
Gliscor which is semi-suprising when you look at the list of stuff on the rise.
Jirachi is declining in usage (which is more broken than Mence imo but thats neither here nor there).
Tyranitar isn't as common from what I've seen.
Thats just what I've noticed from my limited time playing. Mostly because the rest of my time was spent trying to hack off my leg with a butter knife from all the hax I was getting.
Looks like the new man on stall is heatran? I guess it makes sence to combat the wish cm jirachis out there
Edit: Also ive seen a few np azelfs?
Edit: Also ive seen a few np azelfs?
Kingdra is a beast right now (Although it always has been). Now that Mence is off the Suspect ladder, Heracross is also enjoying some much needed breathing space, since there's no Mence to come in and Intimidate your ass (Gyara can as well, but you outspeed Gyara anyway). Anyone having trouble with Stall?? Just whack on an SD Heracross for some major face-pounding.
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