Alternative Items

[Pratty]

Standard TormentTran's Lava Plume vs. 4 HP/0 Sp. DEF Occa Scizor: 95.7% - 112.8%

Standard TormentTran's Lava Plume vs. 252 HP/4 Sp. DEF Occa Scizor: 77.3% - 91.3%

Standard TormentTran's Lava Plume vs. 252 HP/252 Sp. DEF Occa Scizor: 59.3% - 69.8%

Average 1HKO on even max HP Scizor with Lava Plume.

If you run max HP/Sp. DEF Occa Scizor to survive...

+2 4 ATK EV Adamant Occa Scizor's Brick Break vs. TormentTran: 73.4% - 87%

You fail to 1HKO even with Rocks down(85.4% - 99% after Rocks). You could pump more ATK EVs, but even then your chances of 1HKOing are unlikely to be over 50% while surviving.

None of this takes into account burn chance from Lava Plume, prior damage on Scizor/Heatran or the more powerful Flamethrower(Flamethrower from just TormentTran's EVs, which would be lower than normal for any set running Flamethrower, is 69.8% - 82.6%, so you won't survive...).

Basically, you don't win against Heatran.

NP MixApe does 91.3% - 108.1% to 252 HP/252 Sp. DEF Adamant Scizor, as does Specially-Based MixApe. Physical MixApe does 115.1% - 136% with Overheat. Fire Blast on any MixApe is 115.7% - 136.6%, a guarenteed 1HKO even with max HP/Sp. DEF

Occa Scizor doesn't beat either. Even if we give Scizor a Careful nature, MixApe's Flamethrower does 83.7% - 99.4%, a very high chance of OHKO after Rocks.

Note that Scizor can only do 29.9% - 35.4%, 67% - 78.9% or 40.1% - 47.3% with it's moves after a SD, meaning you must use Brick Break + Bullet Punch to KO it. With Careful, Infernape actually has a low chance to survive Break + BP.

Note that none of this takes into account that Fire Blast is the main option on both Heatran and Infernape. 62.1% of Heatran in April ran Fire Blast, although Infernape numbers were significantly lower(39.9%). Again, though, Flamethrower still KOs you. Even Flare Blitz, used 15.3% of the time, does 127.3% - 150% after Occa on physical MixApe to 252 HP/0 DEF Scizor. Even Flare Blitz from SPECIAL MixApe does 108.1% - 127.3%.

Occa Scizor doesn't work against Heatran or Infernape.

 

[Farewell]

Couldn't that Scizor work on a Rain Dance team then (and just hold Expert Belt to boost Brick break)?

 

[Ace Emerald]

All of the Pkm you mentioned are already Ko'd by a +2 superpower\bug bite so occa is at best gimmick. Not to mention that things like Heatran and Infernape will ohko Scizor through the resistance berry. Life orb boosts all of your attacks and is arguably the best choice on SD Scizor.

You might want to double check that. None of the pokemon I mentioned are ohkoed by plus two superpower, while all of them are ohkoed (factoring in SR) by natural gift with occa berry exept skamory, which has very little health afterwards. Besides the fact that I dislike superpower for sweepers like SD scizor beacuae of the drop. Even though this set wasts a moveslot and item, if scizor is EVed to take one fire attack (if he can, I haven't checked), it can potentionally get rid of a lot of Scizor's counters (Garadous and Zapdous would still counter). And with out the def drop, scizor could possibly set up more SDs to boost his few attacking options. This is a gimmick set yeah I know, but you cannot automatically say it won't work without testing. I'm going to try it I really don't care if you do or don't.

 

[Pratty]

Couldn't that Scizor work on a Rain Dance team then (and just hold Expert Belt to boost Brick break)?

It could, by why not just use Dragon Dance Kingdra instead? The only thing Scizor benefits from Rain Dance is surviving Fire attacks.

In addition, Max Sp. DEF/Max HP Scizor still takes 58.1% - 68.6% from Special MixApes Fire Blast in the rain with Occa. After Stealth Rock, that's 70.1% - 80.6%, making Scizor a prime target to be revenge killed or even killed outright if it took prior damage. Scarftran does 52.3% - 61.6% with Fire Blast, Specstran does 86% - 101.7% with Fire Blast and 100% - 118.6% with Overheat, TormentTran only does 29.7% - 35.5% but can still screw you over if it gets lucky and burns you.

In addition, the rain boosts the power of water attacks, opening up the most dangerous counter to this Set to be even more dangerous: Gyarados.

At +1, the most you can do is 36.6% - 43.2% with Bug Bite. An unboosted Waterfall from Offensive DDos in the rain will do 78.8% - 93.3% to Scizor, a OHKO with Rocks, and bulky DDos will do 53.2% - 62.8% while only taking 29.2% - 34.6% from Bug Bite, allowing it to DD up.

Granted, you can just switch as you should, but you just gave Gyarados a turn to DD in the RAIN and wasted turns of valuable rain time.

Rain Dance, to put it simply, has better options.

 

[haunter]

I've been assuming Flamethrower, been a while since I saw Fire Blast. And, a smentioned in my post, I haven't come up against Scarf or SpecsTran in quite some time, whereas Torment is gaining popularity with it's much weaker lava plume.

MixApe's with Fire Blast must simply not come up against me, because, again, I see Flamethrower.

Then again, run some calcs, Infernape and Heatran will ohko you even with flamethrower and even if you run max HP. You might survive with a few HP to Heatran's flamethrower if you run some weird specially defensive set, but then you'll end up with a mediocre sweeper which is still going to lose against the aforementioned threats if it has taken ANY prior damage. Pratty's post is self explanatory.

You might want to double check that. None of the pokemon I mentioned are ohkoed by plus two superpower, while all of them are ohkoed (factoring in SR) by natural gift with occa berry exept skamory, which has very little health afterwards. Besides the fact that I dislike superpower for sweepers like SD scizor beacuae of the drop. Even though this set wasts a moveslot and item, if scizor is EVed to take one fire attack (if he can, I haven't checked), it can potentionally get rid of a lot of Scizor's counters (Garadous and Zapdous would still counter). And with out the def drop, scizor could possibly set up more SDs to boost his few attacking options. This is a gimmick set yeah I know, but you cannot automatically say it won't work without testing. I'm going to try it I really don't care if you do or don't.

Dude you can test whatever you want and if I say that it won't work is because damage calculations suggest me that.

So ok, let's run some calcs:

+2 LO superpower against spiker Skarmory: 66.5% - 78.4%. Add SR and, in the best scenario, you have a Skarmory sitting at around 20% while all it can do in return is roar Scizor out.
+2 LO superpower against specially defensive Skarm: 76% - 89.5%. Good chance of OHKO after SR.
+2 LO bug bite against standard wall Bronzong: 101.2% - 119.5%. OHKO.
+2 LO bug bite against standard CB Metagross: 90.7% - 107.1%. Again an almost guaranteed OHKO after SR.
+2 LO superpower against standard Forretress: 64.4% - 75.7%. Yeah it survives a hit but what is it gonna do in return??? Gyro ball? Payback? Actually Scizor could just set up a second SD on a Forretress switch in.
+2 LO superpower against specially defensive Forretress: 78.5% - 92.7%. Possible OHKO after SR.

Actually, if you think that occa berry is a one time use item and that it's really usefull only against a full health physical Skarmory you realize how stupid is to give up life orb boost. And anyway I've never said that you couldn't test your gimmicks, I just stated that your set is, in fact, a gimmick. Case closed.

 

[Kane Dunestorm]

White herb when using a move that reduces the user's stats such as Overheat is always nice.

Also, has anyone tried Shell Bell for when item clause is in effect? On a sweeper, it essentially can be another leftovers.

 

[Ace Emerald]

White herb when using a move that reduces the user's stats such as Overheat is always nice.

Also, has anyone tried Shell Bell for when item clause is in effect? On a sweeper, it essentially can be another leftovers.

I've tried shell bell before, it doesn't restore that much health at all. Even with hard hitters, one turn of shell bell was less then a turn of leftovers. Even if item clause was in effect, I think there are better options.

 

[Tullavin]

I pretty much throw on a life orb when in doubt. I like to play a pretty aggressive team so I use leftovers pretty sparingly. If I want something to stick around I make sure it has a heal engine e.g. roost, so I'm pretty OK with taking some damage to deal more even if it means maybe fainting a little early. I'm still pretty new so this could all change of course.

 

[Colonel Darren]

Hmm..If the discussion moves to Item Clause, I used to run Sitrus Berry on my spare sweepers who I didn't end up giving a Life Orb to. It always amused me when I take a turn to set up, survive a predicted hit in the red, and bounce right back up to safe health levels so I could sweep and survive some Revenger's Mach Punch or whatever.

I just find that sometimes it's better for one big boost of health rather than some slow constant healing item, or fraction of damage dealt returned as health. Maybe it's just me.

 

[Ace Emerald]

Hmm..If the discussion moves to Item Clause, I used to run Sitrus Berry on my spare sweepers who I didn't end up giving a Life Orb to. It always amused me when I take a turn to set up, survive a predicted hit in the red, and bounce right back up to safe health levels so I could sweep and survive some Revenger's Mach Punch or whatever.

I just find that sometimes it's better for one big boost of health rather than some slow
constant healing item, or fraction of damage dealt returned as health. Maybe it's just
me.

I never saw or used this item, but the in game elite four annoy the crap out of me with this item always increasing the hits needed to ko by one.

 

[Ericcc]

The choice items are, to an extent, very common in today's metagame. Choice Band Mamoswine, Choice Scarf Rotom-H, etc.

However, how many of you have seen some more, rather unconventional options? Such as a Choice Specs on Gyarados (who would obviously be running Modest), or a Choice Scarf of a Breloom to get guaranteed Spores on an opponent?
How useful are these rare sets, and are they worth it?

 

[PhredLevi]

I never saw or used this item, but the in game elite four annoy the crap out of me with this item always increasing the hits needed to ko by one.

Eh, Sitrus Berry on the Elite Four isn't so bad.
It just means they're less likely to use a Full Restored to bring their health back up because the Sitrus Berry already put it at a relatively safe level.
What is the healing on those flavoured berries? The ones that confuse those that don't like it. If it's comparable to Sitrus Berry, they might also be a fun alternative

 

[callforjudgement]

Eh, Sitrus Berry on the Elite Four isn't so bad.
It just means they're less likely to use a Full Restored to bring their health back up because the Sitrus Berry already put it at a relatively safe level.
What is the healing on those flavoured berries? The ones that confuse those that don't like it. If it's comparable to Sitrus Berry, they might also be a fun alternative

It's worse than Sitrus Berry, no reason to use such berries at all. The only other pinch healing berry that should even be considered is Oran Berry, and only in Little Cup (where it's all over the place).

 

[Ace Emerald]

The choice items are, to an extent, very common in today's metagame. Choice Band Mamoswine, Choice Scarf Rotom-H, etc.

However, how many of you have seen some more, rather unconventional options? Such as a Choice Specs on Gyarados (who would obviously be running Modest), or a Choice Scarf of a Breloom to get guaranteed Spores on an opponent?
How useful are these rare sets, and are they worth it?

I read about someone in a different thread who used Modest max sp atk Scizor the specs, technition hidden power, and some other moves to catch someone off guard. I don't know if it would consistently work, but when using the more gimmicky sets you have surprise on your side.

 

[jvl101993]

TheFourthChaser beat me to type resist berries, but some of that is pretty interesting, like the Chople Berry Darkrai. Mail is also not implemented on Shoddy, sadly. There are a lot of options that are gimmicky at best, but not really bad, like a Kings Rock on something fast that doesn't get much help from leftovers. White Herb could be devastating with Draco Meteor, of course that means no specs or life orb to boost damage output. I believe only Jirachi has access to both Draco Meteor and recycle and with no STAB, only 4 moveslots and only 100 special attack (that won't be boosted) it isn't scary.

I was laddering once, and someone used a White Herb Latias. I almost rage-quit after it got a clean Draco Meteor without a drawback.

 

[Ericcc]

I read about someone in a different thread who used Modest max sp atk Scizor the specs, technition hidden power, and some other moves to catch someone off guard. I don't know if it would consistently work, but when using the more gimmicky sets you have surprise on your side.

This is very true. Surprise is a very good thing to have on your side.
Choice Specs on a modest Gyarados is sure a surprise, and Hydro Pump coming from this Gyarados is sure to hurt.
Also, would you mind sending me the link to this person's thread? lol,

 

[PhredLevi]

Actually, the Big Root thing could work for Dream Eater, couldn't it?
As long as you could keep them from switching out on you.

 

[StealthX]

Hmm.... Did you know that in generation 3 special sweeping gyarados was an actual set that lured out it's counters (such as Donphan)? Choice Specs gyarados could work like that as well; Fire Blast Skarmory and Fortress, Ice Beam Zapdos, and Hydro Pump for general damage. (of course you would need really good prediction to catch them on the switch, but Sp. Sweeping gyarados might work). Since we are talking about using weired items, how good would Quick Claw be? Not very good of course, but in some situations it could be really good.

About Modest Gyarados;