Yes, it does. The only thing different is that OHKO moves don't have a chance to hit through protect.
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Clauses in the metagame
- Thread starter Toby
- Start date
Yes, it does. The only thing different is that OHKO moves don't have a chance to hit through protect.
Freeze is so rare, (most likely: 20% chance of freeze when a Serene Graze user uses any ice attack not named Icy Wind. That's nothing compared to spore or sleep powder or if you play Ubers, Dark Void) that a clause is unnecessary. You will almost NEVER see freeze, and if you're playing with a Sun team, you don't care. If there was an insta-freeze move then it would be different. But there isn't.
If I'm honest, I think the introduction of all these clauses has ruined the game that Game Freak intended us to play.
EDIT: If you want to know what I mean, these are the only known official rules we have:
A player's team may not contain two Pokémon with the same National Pokédex number.
Each Pokémon on a player's team may use held items, though no two Pokémon may hold the same item during battle. Allowed items include held items from Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver Versions as well as from earlier video games, including Berries 1-64. The Soul Dew item may not be used.
Players may not enter two Pokémon with the same nickname.
Players may not enter a Pokémon nicknamed with the name of another Pokémon character (for example, a Lucario nicknamed "Spiritomb").
Banned Pokemon:
151 - Mew
251 - Celebi
385 - Jirachi
386 - Deoxys
489 - Phione
490 - Manaphy
491 - Darkrai
492 - Shaymin
493 - Arceus
Semi-Banned Pokemon (Max of two):
150 - Mewtwo
249 - Lugia
250 - Ho-Oh
382 - Kyogre
383 - Groudon
384 - Rayquaza
483 - Dialga
484 - Palkia
487 - Giratina
I'd think this'd bring a much more interesting game than the one we have now.
EDIT: If you want to know what I mean, these are the only known official rules we have:
A player's team may not contain two Pokémon with the same National Pokédex number.
Each Pokémon on a player's team may use held items, though no two Pokémon may hold the same item during battle. Allowed items include held items from Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver Versions as well as from earlier video games, including Berries 1-64. The Soul Dew item may not be used.
Players may not enter two Pokémon with the same nickname.
Players may not enter a Pokémon nicknamed with the name of another Pokémon character (for example, a Lucario nicknamed "Spiritomb").
Banned Pokemon:
151 - Mew
251 - Celebi
385 - Jirachi
386 - Deoxys
489 - Phione
490 - Manaphy
491 - Darkrai
492 - Shaymin
493 - Arceus
Semi-Banned Pokemon (Max of two):
150 - Mewtwo
249 - Lugia
250 - Ho-Oh
382 - Kyogre
383 - Groudon
384 - Rayquaza
483 - Dialga
484 - Palkia
487 - Giratina
I'd think this'd bring a much more interesting game than the one we have now.
Firstly, we try to create the best competetive enviroment we can even if it isn't the arbitrarily decided one laid out for us by Nintendo. Secondly, if you prefer that ruleset, why not just do VGC which follows that exact set of rules?
I guess, but things get a little stale after a while. I have a friend who keeps banging on, telling me that I must use OUs or I'll get nowhere. Go ahead and laugh, but I'd rather use the Normal form Rotom over the others anyday.
Not many people do VGC purely because it's not the bog standard set of rules.
I dislike extraneous rules.
Firstly, Sleep Clause is absolutely essential. Nintendo realized that early on with Pokemon Stadium and so did competitive players. The game is just plain unfun when you can put every Pokemon asleep.
Freeze Clause is just a whiny clause. You have a 10% chance of being frozen from an ice move. There is no other way to be frozen. This isn't sleep. If you get frozen twice, tough shit. The game isn't suddenly going to revolve around a team where the fastest "freezer" wins. Even with Serene Grace the highest freeze chance is 20%.
Evasion is a relic left from RBY that needs to be tried again. I know some people have a problem with things like Double Team Baton Pass Umbreon, but honestly, what can Umbreon even do right now? You should be able to take on an Umbreon pretty easily.
OHKO along with Evasion I think needs to be tested again. The reason zerowing listed is the reason I believe it's currently banned. I made a list a few years ago of every Pokemon that learns a OHKO move and really, most of them are trash.
I'd rather test Double Team and OHKO than any Suspect Pokemon.
Hax Items is by sore losers. Every "Hax Item" is a tradeoff between consistency and power. If you cry about it, stop playing Pokemon and pick up Chess.
Species Clause is actually something Smogon's looking at to be tested iirc. Why did you pick on every clause but that one?
The Politoed Hunter, VGC rules change every year and just as arbitrary - if not more arbitrary - than Smogon's rules. And this is coming from someone who has played 90% VGC format for the past two months.
Firstly, Sleep Clause is absolutely essential. Nintendo realized that early on with Pokemon Stadium and so did competitive players. The game is just plain unfun when you can put every Pokemon asleep.
Freeze Clause is just a whiny clause. You have a 10% chance of being frozen from an ice move. There is no other way to be frozen. This isn't sleep. If you get frozen twice, tough shit. The game isn't suddenly going to revolve around a team where the fastest "freezer" wins. Even with Serene Grace the highest freeze chance is 20%.
Evasion is a relic left from RBY that needs to be tried again. I know some people have a problem with things like Double Team Baton Pass Umbreon, but honestly, what can Umbreon even do right now? You should be able to take on an Umbreon pretty easily.
OHKO along with Evasion I think needs to be tested again. The reason zerowing listed is the reason I believe it's currently banned. I made a list a few years ago of every Pokemon that learns a OHKO move and really, most of them are trash.
I'd rather test Double Team and OHKO than any Suspect Pokemon.
Hax Items is by sore losers. Every "Hax Item" is a tradeoff between consistency and power. If you cry about it, stop playing Pokemon and pick up Chess.
Species Clause is actually something Smogon's looking at to be tested iirc. Why did you pick on every clause but that one?
The Politoed Hunter, VGC rules change every year and just as arbitrary - if not more arbitrary - than Smogon's rules. And this is coming from someone who has played 90% VGC format for the past two months.
I'm currently hosting that same ruleset in a tournament. It's really fun to play, but it's really not very competitively balanced. ^^;
I agree with Firestorm in that sleep clause is essential, but freeze clause isn't. I'm guessing freeze clause was made in RBY, where there was no way to unfreeze? It's not very high on the list of policy priorities, though, imo. (In fact, it isn't at all.)
ETA: RB Golbat pointed me in the direction of a post by chaos in October 2009, which I will quote:
chaos said:
Smogon's goal with its metagame is to make the game more competitive, which includes removing as much luck as possible and decentralizing as much as possible (i.e. particular Pokemon, tactics, strategies, etc. would not be clearly overpowered). The latter actually makes the game more accessible to absolute beginners. Ubers is harder to learn (although perhaps easier to master) than OU.
Sleep Clause is absolutely essential and only idiots will argue it is not essential.
Freeze Clause could be lifted, but...why? IIRC, even Pokemon Battle Revolution adopted this clause, and they probably simply didn't edit into D/P/Pt/HG/SS because it was too late and they wanted them to be compatible with each other. All it does is add more luck, even if it's an infintismal and insignificant amount. Feel free to life it, but I don't get why they should even waste time unclicking it.
Evasion Clause is because Evasion is annoying, but it could be tested. It'll just be annoying.
OHKO Clause is because OHKOs are stupid. I don't really see this one being undone: For example, just slap Choice Scarf on Suicune and you now have a 60%(Or more realistically, I think around 44% or something) chance of OHKOing any other Pokemon not wearing a Choice Scarf as well. Same with Abomasnow. And this assumes they can OHKO Suicune, of course. The entire thing is just a luck roulette of crap with a side of potential strategy.
Species Clause is meh. I think it's healthy, but I have always thought about the fun of being able to have more than one Pokemon...
I don't think Hax Item clause is even in Smogon's server anymore, I could be wrong? Either way, Hax Item clause is stupid. Hax Items, at the least, offer a trade-off between luck or consistancy. So they have a good element of strategy to them.
Freeze Clause could be lifted, but...why? IIRC, even Pokemon Battle Revolution adopted this clause, and they probably simply didn't edit into D/P/Pt/HG/SS because it was too late and they wanted them to be compatible with each other. All it does is add more luck, even if it's an infintismal and insignificant amount. Feel free to life it, but I don't get why they should even waste time unclicking it.
Evasion Clause is because Evasion is annoying, but it could be tested. It'll just be annoying.
OHKO Clause is because OHKOs are stupid. I don't really see this one being undone: For example, just slap Choice Scarf on Suicune and you now have a 60%(Or more realistically, I think around 44% or something) chance of OHKOing any other Pokemon not wearing a Choice Scarf as well. Same with Abomasnow. And this assumes they can OHKO Suicune, of course. The entire thing is just a luck roulette of crap with a side of potential strategy.
Species Clause is meh. I think it's healthy, but I have always thought about the fun of being able to have more than one Pokemon...
I don't think Hax Item clause is even in Smogon's server anymore, I could be wrong? Either way, Hax Item clause is stupid. Hax Items, at the least, offer a trade-off between luck or consistancy. So they have a good element of strategy to them.
Except that you're locked into a useless move when Skarm/Forretress/Donphan/Abomasnow/Mamoswine/Walrein switch in.
I can understand many of those clauses. OHKO makes perfect sense, as do Evasion and Sleep. Ubers and Species clauses prevent overpowering teams. Hax Item clause is a little iffy but makes enough sense, and I would comment on the Soul Dew clause but I would imagine that one's dead and gone now that Latias is Uber. All of these clauses are easily enforcible.
The one clause I have to question is the Freeze one. How can you enforce that clause in WiFi(Shoddy would be easy enough to check if the target's team already has a frozen before running the effect chance and ignore the freeze effect if there is one) when just about every ice-type move can 10% freeze just like so many fire-types can burn? There's no Just Freeze move like Thunder Wave/Spore/Confuse Ray/etc for the other statuses. I can understand the idea, but inflicting freeze doesn't work like sleep. It's too seldom and impossible to properly enforce in the wifi battling; there's no ice-type attack that CAN'T freezehax.
The one clause I have to question is the Freeze one. How can you enforce that clause in WiFi(Shoddy would be easy enough to check if the target's team already has a frozen before running the effect chance and ignore the freeze effect if there is one) when just about every ice-type move can 10% freeze just like so many fire-types can burn? There's no Just Freeze move like Thunder Wave/Spore/Confuse Ray/etc for the other statuses. I can understand the idea, but inflicting freeze doesn't work like sleep. It's too seldom and impossible to properly enforce in the wifi battling; there's no ice-type attack that CAN'T freezehax.
I would be neutral on Sleep clause if Breloom didn't get Poison Heal/130 Base attack.
lol, I once had Sleep Powder from my Butterfree miss (1 out of 99% chance of missing, and I landed on it.).
I'm kind of neutral on Freeze Clause. It never happens, but when it does, the Pokemon often defrost same turn.
Evasion Clause is b/c something bulky might get a chance to set up, and you will never hit it. People like me will go 6-7 battles in a row plagued by bad hax w/ Crits, and those w/ worse hax can go up to 15 battles loaded w/ hax. Now if Double Team could be spammed, battles would last forever and we would never win.
I was always neutral on hax items untill........One day when an NPC in the Battle Tower activated Focus Band 3 times in a row! I have the battle video to prove it!
Having poor luck as mentioned above, I shutter whenever I see "Kingler used Guillotine".
Species Clause is to keep from finally, after losing 2 Pokemon or something like that, finally taking out Curse/DD T-Tar, SubPunch Breloom, or *insert powerful/annoying threat here*........Just for them to send out another.
lol, I once had Sleep Powder from my Butterfree miss (1 out of 99% chance of missing, and I landed on it.).
I'm kind of neutral on Freeze Clause. It never happens, but when it does, the Pokemon often defrost same turn.
Evasion Clause is b/c something bulky might get a chance to set up, and you will never hit it. People like me will go 6-7 battles in a row plagued by bad hax w/ Crits, and those w/ worse hax can go up to 15 battles loaded w/ hax. Now if Double Team could be spammed, battles would last forever and we would never win.
I was always neutral on hax items untill........One day when an NPC in the Battle Tower activated Focus Band 3 times in a row! I have the battle video to prove it!
Having poor luck as mentioned above, I shutter whenever I see "Kingler used Guillotine".
Species Clause is to keep from finally, after losing 2 Pokemon or something like that, finally taking out Curse/DD T-Tar, SubPunch Breloom, or *insert powerful/annoying threat here*........Just for them to send out another.
I've looked over the standard sets, and glanced over Haze's distribution. Of all the Pokemon that learn Haze, only Altaria, Milotic, Politoed, and Weezing have it suggested in thier standard movesets, and a handful of others "can Haze in a pinch"
with 4/29 available Pokemon suggested to use this move (I see 6 off the top of my head who could Haze in an OU environment), I could very easily see this move becoming "teched in" in a metagame that allowed for Double Team.
Evasion Clause can come off, far as I'm concerned. We have ways of dealing with it (Haze, Whirlwind, Machamp, Aerial Ace).
with 4/29 available Pokemon suggested to use this move (I see 6 off the top of my head who could Haze in an OU environment), I could very easily see this move becoming "teched in" in a metagame that allowed for Double Team.
Evasion Clause can come off, far as I'm concerned. We have ways of dealing with it (Haze, Whirlwind, Machamp, Aerial Ace).
Smogon Movedex doesn't say it fails against Ice Types, so I'll assume that.
But either way, assuming you mean those after Sheer Cold, revenge killing =/= countering/checking.
Donphan cannot switch in safely. Surf or Ice Beam will completely eviscerate it. Wood Hammer or Blizzard will eviscerate it.
Skarmory and Forretress are easy Magnezone bait.
One of the counters to Sheer Cold, assuming Sheer Cold does not work on ice, is ironically enough a Sheer Cold user itself. See where I'm going with this?
Also, Sheer Cold works against all Pokemon except those with the Sturdy ability. Just wanted to clear that up.
As I said, what if something like Dusclops sets it up? Whirlwind can miss, and the never-miss attacks lack a lot of power, so much Delibird and Scyther are the only ones who ever use it. Would you run Ariel Ace on your Dragonite? And Dusclops, Bronzong, Cress, etc. can survive an Ariel Ace.
I wouldn't run Aerial Ace on a Dragonite, but I'd run a No Guard Machamp with Payback, or a Milotic/Weezing with Haze, or (if I'm feeling techy) a persian with shock wave and icy wind or something along those lines.
I'm not advocating never-miss moves, though...I'm mostly pointing out the availability, and possible viability, of Haze...
I don't see why we should even consider testing the Species Clause. Why? Imagine your foe has 2 Salamences, both without nicknames.
Foe sent out Salamence:
You: "Crap, is this his DD Mence or his MixMence? I'll send in Swampert..."
Salamence used Draco Meteor! Swampert fainted.
You: "Oh so it's his MixMence. Thanks for letting me know his set, Swampert."
Basically, if the Species Clause is removed it's possible to run 2 (or even more) of the same Pokemon with different movesets. Assuming the Pokemon keep at around the same amount of health (not too hard) you'd have to sac a Pokemon each time in order to figure out what set that particular Pokemon has.
Or look at it this way: your opponent sends out his Salamence. You switch to something that will scare it off but he just hits Outrage. OK, you think, I'll kill him with whatever. My Mence checks/counters have been crippled but that's OK.
Oh hey, look, my opponent has 5 more Salamences! Yay!
So yeah.
Foe sent out Salamence:
You: "Crap, is this his DD Mence or his MixMence? I'll send in Swampert..."
Salamence used Draco Meteor! Swampert fainted.
You: "Oh so it's his MixMence. Thanks for letting me know his set, Swampert."
Basically, if the Species Clause is removed it's possible to run 2 (or even more) of the same Pokemon with different movesets. Assuming the Pokemon keep at around the same amount of health (not too hard) you'd have to sac a Pokemon each time in order to figure out what set that particular Pokemon has.
Or look at it this way: your opponent sends out his Salamence. You switch to something that will scare it off but he just hits Outrage. OK, you think, I'll kill him with whatever. My Mence checks/counters have been crippled but that's OK.
Oh hey, look, my opponent has 5 more Salamences! Yay!
So yeah.
That's not a very good competitive environment. You can challenge people and turn off all the clauses if you want to play that way. There doesn't need to be a ladder for it.
Sleep Clause
This needs to be on, Sleep is too powerful consider it can be induced rather reliably.
Freeze Clause
Hax Item Clause
Clauses for whiners. They are totally unnecessary.
Specie Clause
I really haven't thought about it, but I suppose its the most interesting clause to speculate on.
The next two clauses are the big two contentious ones it seems. I can certainly understand their origins as things didn't hit nearly as hard as they do now so stall so stall would've been near invincible without these clauses. Things have changed a lot.
Evasion Clause
This one is a tricky one, mostly because phazing moves can miss. While Double Team is going to be pretty worthless to a lot of Pokemon, on something like Lugia which has Pressure and a number of options to pair with DT very well I can see it being broken as paired with Roost is can pretty much shed its rock weakness, save Roost PP and still gets free turns.
OHKO Clause
OHKO moves might not be as effective as they once were, but I think of it this way. Say your opponent has two viable switchins to your current Pokemon, Gyarados and Jolteon. You can EQ and kill Jolt / miss Gyara or Thunderpunch and heal Jolt / kill Gyara. Its pretty much 50%, or you can use an OHKO move and have 30% KO against either and if they for some reason switch in something else the same applies.
While for normal use OHKO moves seem pretty useless on anything but the tankiest tank, on the switch they still seem pretty OP to me.
This needs to be on, Sleep is too powerful consider it can be induced rather reliably.
Freeze Clause
Hax Item Clause
Clauses for whiners. They are totally unnecessary.
Specie Clause
I really haven't thought about it, but I suppose its the most interesting clause to speculate on.
The next two clauses are the big two contentious ones it seems. I can certainly understand their origins as things didn't hit nearly as hard as they do now so stall so stall would've been near invincible without these clauses. Things have changed a lot.
Evasion Clause
This one is a tricky one, mostly because phazing moves can miss. While Double Team is going to be pretty worthless to a lot of Pokemon, on something like Lugia which has Pressure and a number of options to pair with DT very well I can see it being broken as paired with Roost is can pretty much shed its rock weakness, save Roost PP and still gets free turns.
OHKO Clause
OHKO moves might not be as effective as they once were, but I think of it this way. Say your opponent has two viable switchins to your current Pokemon, Gyarados and Jolteon. You can EQ and kill Jolt / miss Gyara or Thunderpunch and heal Jolt / kill Gyara. Its pretty much 50%, or you can use an OHKO move and have 30% KO against either and if they for some reason switch in something else the same applies.
While for normal use OHKO moves seem pretty useless on anything but the tankiest tank, on the switch they still seem pretty OP to me.
Evasion Clause is necessary because it is overcentralizing. Forcing every team to carry a machamp/hazer/pokemon with a weak move like aerial ace does not seem like a good idea, because it means every team will have to have like one of about 5 viable pokemon just to not lose to an umbreon or cresselia. You say umbreon isn't that much of a threat, but really, think about it - how much can OHKO it? It double teams while you switch into something that can 2HKO it (assuming not machamp). Well, maybe you hit it and it uses DT again. Then, it uses moonlight and if you miss, which by then you probably will have, you're back where you started except now it has two double teams. DT would easily over-centralize the metagame.
OHKO Clause is an obvious rule that needs to stay. Yes, OHKO moves are unreliable - so what, they represent spinning the wheel of fate. However, the goal of competitive battling is to determine the better battler, not the luckier battler. Yes they are unreliable, but maybe one day a terrible battler lands 6 OHKO moves on the #1 battler, completely defeating the purpose of a competitive environment. That 30% can easily screw over any team, and somebody with a lucky day may get undeserving wins.
OHKO Clause is an obvious rule that needs to stay. Yes, OHKO moves are unreliable - so what, they represent spinning the wheel of fate. However, the goal of competitive battling is to determine the better battler, not the luckier battler. Yes they are unreliable, but maybe one day a terrible battler lands 6 OHKO moves on the #1 battler, completely defeating the purpose of a competitive environment. That 30% can easily screw over any team, and somebody with a lucky day may get undeserving wins.