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Drawing Mohammed

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Lelouch said:
Islam is not a peaceful religion. Islam is based on a book with some horrific content, and anyone who can claim to be a muslim is tacitly stating his approval of that book, whether he's read the damn thing or not.
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Quotes from the Quran please.

Respect is a word thrown around far too easily these days. We should NOT respect anyone stupid enough to read a book and believe it and we should respect those stupid people even less when they not only believe a work of fiction, but obey the rules it sets forth. Then, we should respect them still less when they're stupid enough to believe in the book, cowardly enough to obey what they believe to be threats (live like this or suffer) and evil enough to accept those commandments to live by as justified.
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I can believe whatever I want. Does that make me a fucking idiot? Just because I believe something that you view as "evil", am I an idiot that deserves no respect?

I am a Muslim myself. That being said, I couldn't care less about these cartoons. I don't know why people are taking it so seriously. Just like how extremist nutjobs are minorities amidst Muslims, idiots like the quoted poster or the author of the cartoons are minorities in the "Western nations" (or so I hope).

EDIT: Now I'm waiting for Deck Knight to post and rant about Muslims being terrorists and Mohammad being a terrorist leader. Of course, since he'll use really complex vocabulary and bumble on about for pages, no-one will even bother to read his large block of text and answer it.
 
@ Phantom - agreed. I don't dislike or disapprove of Islam any more than Christianity or Judaism, the religions I'm most familiar with. However, about your last paragraph - no, I disagree. I don't believe in degrees when it comes to the religious. If someone says he's a muslim, he stands for things I consider disgraceful. I don't distinguish between the cherry-pickers and Al-Queda, just as I don't distinguish between cherry-picking Christians and Westboro Baptist Church. I'm aware many people like to doublethink themselves into believing they're muslim when they don't agree with certain aspects of Islam, just like some Jews eat pork, but that is no excuse to my mind.

@ Plopper - I'm not interested in playing your ridiculous game. I will not go and fetch some objectionable material from the book. You're perfectly it has some things most Westerners would object to.

About your questions - if you actually wanted answers, show the spoiler below. I do not lie or mince words to spare feelings, so chances are you won't appreciate my answer. I don't care, but I give you the chance to opt out of hearing my answers to the questions you asked.
I listed the tiers of disrespect I believe apply here, and you fit into them. You believe in a fantasy and you fear the character enough to obey him. Since you're playing some petty game in which you pretend nothing the Quran says could possibly be interpreted as harmful, you haven't admitted to tier 3, but that speaks for itself. Yes, I consider you an idiot and no, I don't have an iota of respect for you. If you're offended by this, put me on your ignore list. You asked and I answered. This isn't an attempt to offend, merely what you requested to know, and I gave you the option to continue without reading it.
 
Phantom_IV said:
I'm not religious, but the main thing I take from these debates is that the interpretation of "holy" texts should focus mainly on broad principles. The exact language of it was written by people and subject to contradictions and exaggerations of events that may or may not have really occurred.
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The problem is that while this approach is fine in Christianity, since Christians know the Bible was written by a lot of people (even if there is disagreement on who) and it is supposed to have been 'inspired' by God, it doesn't really work with the Qur'an. The Qur'an is supposed to have been composed by God, and dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to Muhammed, memorised verbatim, and then written down exactly as it was dictated and preserved intact ever since. (I'm pretty sure this is mainstream Islamic belief, if not I'm sure someone will correct me). The scope for 'interpretation' is thus much less with the Qur'an than with the Bible, since any error in the Qur'an would imply either that God lied or that Islamic belief about the nature of its holy text is wrong. Although IIRC Quranic Arabic is considerably poetic, so on matters of scientific and maybe historical fact any apparent contradictions can usually be got out of. But on for example Shariah Law there is surely less room for manoeuvre.
 
Xaqwais said:
Uh, you can make it up, but if you consciously miss it and don't make it up, that's something that'll screw you over. Not for the eternity thing though.
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I never said you couldn't make up for it. Also, because of how horrific hell supposedly is does it make a difference if it's eternity or a couple of years? Jus sayin'.

Also Lelouch needs to get laid.
 
Plopper said:
EDIT: Now I'm waiting for Deck Knight to post and rant about Muslims being terrorists and Mohammad being a terrorist leader. Of course, since he'll use really complex vocabulary and bumble on about for pages, no-one will even bother to read his large block of text and answer it.
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Sadly, no. But thank you for taking the low road Plopper. You and I both know Mohammed was a warrior, and did things that warriors generally did in that era. And that Islamic terrorists use his actions and general outlook to bend Islam to their own interpretation and threaten every other Muslim. Don't you have more constructive things to do than dropping your namesake everywhere?
 
Islam was accepted as a better alternative in Mohammed's time then other pagan/Christian rulers. Accepted, not forced upon.
 
Deck Knight do you search for your name or something? Because you always seem very quick to reply whenever someone mentions you.
 
lati0s said:
A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html
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Let me quote the whole verses:

2:22 It is He who has made the earth a habitable place for you [wherein is the means of your life and subsistence (7:10, 32:27)] and the atmospheric structure over it (as) a protecting roof (21:32) [which protects you from the harmful radiations of the sun, the meteors and the freezing cold of the space]; He has caused water to descend from the clouds (according to His Laws) and then to bring forth with it fruits of various sorts for your sustenance (6:99, 13:17, 14:32, 16:10, 16:65, 20:53, 22:63, 35:27, 39:21). So knowing all this, do not take rivals of Allah [anything that would make you stray or deviate from His path (14:30, 39:8)]
2:23 And if there is anything that perturbs your mind or makes you sceptical about (the truth and authenticity of) what We have revealed to our Servant (Muhammad), then produce a single Surah which is like this [in magnificence (50:1, 85:21), grandeur (15:97), wisdom (36:2), eloquence (12:2, 39:28, 41:3, 43:3, 15:1, 36:69) and esteem (56:77)] (11:13, 10:38, 17:88, 52:34); and call upon your aids (who you think are the most knowledgeable and sagacious, for your help) besides Allah, to prove yourself true.
2:24 But if you cannot - and surely you cannot - then guard yourself against the Inferno (of devastation), whose fuel are the commoners and the crafty ones alike (66:6, 89:5), readied for those who are bent upon denying and defying (this paradisiacal code of life).

2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.
2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
2:192 But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Reading between the lines, eh?

I'll respond other posts tomorrow.
 
WeGotTheJazz said:
Also, because of how horrific hell supposedly is does it make a difference if it's eternity or a couple of years? Jus sayin'.
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If you had the choice to suffer for 100 years as opposed to 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years would you really say that there is no big difference between the two?

It does make quite a bit of difference since an infinite amount of years is infinitely longer than a couple of years.
 
Aaand here we are. Rather than address the fact that yes, there are some things in the book most Westerners don't appreciate, you demand examples you can expound upon as being tolerable to Muslims and snidely remark that they've been misinterpreted.

The verses basically say "You can't prove this wrong, so if you don't accept it as absolute truth without proof, you're going to suffer". Hardly the statement of an entity worth respect, let alone worship. Those are some of the tamer quotes, too.

Should he exist, Allah is an abomination. He goes against everything nearly every Western society stands for, and you idiots, cravens and monsters who stand for him expect us not to express our distaste?
 
Lelouch said:
@ Phantom - agreed. I don't dislike or disapprove of Islam any more than Christianity or Judaism, the religions I'm most familiar with. However, about your last paragraph - no, I disagree. I don't believe in degrees when it comes to the religious. If someone says he's a muslim, he stands for things I consider disgraceful. I don't distinguish between the cherry-pickers and Al-Queda, just as I don't distinguish between cherry-picking Christians and Westboro Baptist Church. I'm aware many people like to doublethink themselves into believing they're muslim when they don't agree with certain aspects of Islam, just like some Jews eat pork, but that is no excuse to my mind.

@ Plopper - I'm not interested in playing your ridiculous game. I will not go and fetch some objectionable material from the book. You're perfectly it has some things most Westerners would object to.

About your questions - if you actually wanted answers, show the spoiler below. I do not lie or mince words to spare feelings, so chances are you won't appreciate my answer. I don't care, but I give you the chance to opt out of hearing my answers to the questions you asked.
I listed the tiers of disrespect I believe apply here, and you fit into them. You believe in a fantasy and you fear the character enough to obey him. Since you're playing some petty game in which you pretend nothing the Quran says could possibly be interpreted as harmful, you haven't admitted to tier 3, but that speaks for itself. Yes, I consider you an idiot and no, I don't have an iota of respect for you. If you're offended by this, put me on your ignore list. You asked and I answered. This isn't an attempt to offend, merely what you requested to know, and I gave you the option to continue without reading it.
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so you refuse to accept the obvious truth of tiers of belief/adherence to a specific religion, yet these 'tiers of disrespect' you've thought up are incredibly well-defined. interesting.
 
Lelouch said:
Should he exist, Allah is an abomination. He goes against everything nearly every Western society stands for, and you idiots, cravens and monsters who stand for him expect us not to express our distaste?
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Liberty, natural rights, and freedom from oppression are all well and good, but I must bite; not everyone on this board is part of Western society, so stop acting high and mighty.
 
Glen said:
so you refuse to accept the obvious truth of tiers of belief/adherence to a specific religion, yet these 'tiers of disrespect' you've thought up are incredibly well-defined. interesting.
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What is there to misunderstand?

1. People who believe in fairy tales are stupid, and I have no respect for the stupid.
2. Setting aside the fact it is a fairy tale, people who obey the main character because he'll punish them otherwise are cowards. I have no respect for cowards.
3. Setting aside the fact that the obedience might come from duress, Muslims not only obey, but WORSHIP Allah. That means they genuinely believe in his goodness. I have no respect for people I consider evil.
 
Lelouch said:
What is there to misunderstand?

1. People who believe in fairy tales are stupid, and I have no respect for the stupid.
2. Setting aside the fact it is a fairy tale, people who obey the main character because he'll punish them otherwise are cowards. I have no respect for cowards.
3. Setting aside the fact that the obedience might come from duress, Muslims not only obey, but WORSHIP Allah. That means they genuinely believe in his goodness. I have no respect for people I consider evil.
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That's stupid, people are allowed to believe whatever the want to believe -- just because they think that following some rules put down by a higher power (that normally are pretty decent things to try and not do) then why exactly do you disrespect them? Is it bad that a Christian won't covert his neighbor's wife? Is it in poor taste that a Taoist respects the Tao and the ever possibility of there being a God? Absolutely not. People who believe in these so called 'fairy tales' aren't stupid -- and you're not one to say they are. None of us have died. We don't know what happens, whether we ascend into heaven or just go away, and to say that you do know is a lie.

During (and currently) my religious crisis I bought and read through several religious works, the most interesting ones I read being the Koran, the bible, and The Way of Chuang Tzu. Unless I am completely misinterpreted the entirety of the Koran then it isn't a violence based book. In the Koran it is sinful to kill oneself, and to do many things which the terrorists do. The people who terrorize anything aren't following the true words of the Koran, they're following something else entirely.

That being said I don't mind the Draw Mohammed Day. It is a freedom of expression, which is a right people should have.

EDIT: I like Glen
 
Lelouch said:
What is there to misunderstand?

1. People who believe in fairy tales are stupid, and I have no respect for the stupid.
2. Setting aside the fact it is a fairy tale, people who obey the main character because he'll punish them otherwise are cowards. I have no respect for cowards.
3. Setting aside the fact that the obedience might come from duress, Muslims not only obey, but WORSHIP Allah. That means they genuinely believe in his goodness. I have no respect for people I consider evil.
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i don't think i misunderstood anything.

1. lumping every adherent of a specific religion (or of any religion, which you seem to be doing) together is stupid.

2. such generalizations are as cowardly as they are stupid. being uncompromisingly absolute when the topic is something as subjective as faith shows cowardice in the sense that you are quite obviously afraid (why, i have no idea, maybe you'll shed some light on that) to look at these people in the way they deserve to be looked at; generalizations are much easier on the old noggin, i suppose. you are acting like a seven year old who, when told something he doesn't like, jams his fingers in his ears and starts yelling.

3. looking upon those you consider stupider than you with such contempt is, if nothing else, 'evil'.
 
Explain WHY "lumping together" a people who, by definition, share certain traits is stupid. What I am saying about Islam (and Judaism, and Christianity) is no different than "All blonde people have some hair". It's a fact, and it's a product of your faulty, multiculturalist indoctrination that you consider any and all descriptions of a group as a whole to be inherently wrong. That covers 1 and 2.

I agree, I'm an arrogant jerk. Further, I'm barely any better than those I hate. I approve of fighting fire with fire, I approve of becoming a monster to fight monsters, and the abyss has looked back into me. We're agreed, I'm a dick. What's your point? Even I will concede people I consider evil can be right - the National Socialists were amongst the first to campaign awareness of the hazards of smoking, for example. That doesn't make them better people. In the same way, while I freely admit I'm just as horrid a person as I consider Muslims, it does not make my statements any less true.

@ Genny - I don't know what happens after death. It's immaterial. What makes the religious stupid is they pick a book arbitrarily - or more often, their parents picked the book long ago and raise the kids stupid - and believe in it. With nothing beyond the books' assurances that it's true to go on.

A fun little sci-fi series of books I enjoyed as a kid was called "Animorphs". At the start of every book, the narrator, a titular "animorph" would claim that the events depicted were true, with only names and locations obscured to protect the identities of the protagonist. Should I start wearing earmuffs to prevent the Yeerks stealing my brain through my ear canal?
 
Genny said:
None of us have died. We don't know what happens, whether we ascend into heaven or just go away, and to say that you do know is a lie.
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Just because something cannot be objectively dis-proven does not mean that it is not foolish to believe. Would you consider the idea that there are unicorns roaming around this planet that are invisible to all but select few valid? after all, maybe you just cant see them.
 
The idea that stupidity isn't stupidity because millions of people agree on the stupid concept is mob mentality. That's all.
 
Lelouch said:
Explain WHY "lumping together" a people who, by definition, share certain traits is stupid. What I am saying about Islam (and Judaism, and Christianity) is no different than "All blonde people have some hair". It's a fact, and it's a product of your faulty, multiculturalist indoctrination that you consider any and all descriptions of a group as a whole to be inherently wrong. That covers 1 and 2.

I agree, I'm an arrogant jerk. Further, I'm barely any better than those I hate. I approve of fighting fire with fire, I approve of becoming a monster to fight monsters, and the abyss has looked back into me. We're agreed, I'm a dick. What's your point? Even I will concede people I consider evil can be right - the National Socialists were amongst the first to campaign awareness of the hazards of smoking, for example. That doesn't make them better people. In the same way, while I freely admit I'm just as horrid a person as I consider Muslims, it does not make my statements any less true.
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just like it's no different from thinking every gay man is a sick creep who wants to fuck little boys in the ass, right?

please don't go on a tirade about indoctrination. if anything, my incredibly neutral and lax stance in this debate shows significantly less indoctrination than your bitter, hateful one (though your doctrine seems to be the doctrine of the self!). i in no way think that 'any and all' generalizations of a group as a whole are inherently wrong. but when you use words like 'stupid' and 'evil' in such generalizations, you can't possibly compare it to 'all blonde people have some hair'.

your second paragraph makes me think that one day you read watchmen for the first time, thought 'MAN THAT RORSCHACH GUY IS THE ULTIMATE IN COOL', and adopted a nifty new persona.

'fighting fire with fire'? what fighting do you actually do? being sassy on the internet is not 'fighting'. it is the very cowardice you despise so thoroughly. your statements were never 'true', and this is the only thing i am trying to alert you to. you have qualms with religion in general, i get it. unfortunately, 'stupid' and 'evil' are subjective, and when you admit to being 'barely any better' than them it kind of stymies your point.
 
Faulty analogy. All we can say with certainty every homosexual man shares in common with every other is a mutual attraction to men (and a Y chromosome). However, all Muslims believe in Allah. That gives us a lot more leeway in what we say about all Muslims because our thoughts on Allah are opinion.

Your "lax and neutral" stance is not lax or neutral, it's pro-Muslim. You're stating that it's acceptable to espouse certain beliefs. That isn't neutral, that puts you in the same boat as the Muslims.

My second paragraph is irrelevant. They're quotes, dear. They have nothing to do with Watchmen, and considering all I've been saying is how bad people who want to limit freedom are, how you can suggest I approve of Rorschach is beyond me. Perhaps you understood the comic book as poorly as you've professed to understand my posts.

As for my "statements never being true" - that's the beauty of opinion. It's entirely true. Naturally, it's impossible to state that something is objectively evil - there is no objective standard by which to measure morality. Morals are glorified opinions, and Muslim morality and mine differ greatly enough that I consider theirs evil.

"Being sassy on the internet", if it were the extent of my actions pertaining to promoting freedom of expression, would be more than satisfactory. The internet is a miracle of freedom, and we need to prevent the multiculturalist cowardice infecting the US and Europe from taking root here, even if we surrender our rights in the tangible world.
 
Lelouch said:
Aaand here we are. Rather than address the fact that yes, there are some things in the book most Westerners don't appreciate, you demand examples you can expound upon as being tolerable to Muslims and snidely remark that they've been misinterpreted.
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Except you did misinterpret...

Your interpretation would not be far off from something like if I said:

I believe people shouldn't hate Jews.

And then you used this as the quote of mine:

I...hate Jews.

If you state that the book is evil, and then your examples prove to be ill thought out, that does meant that you are wrong.
 
Ferrouswheel said:
Except you did misinterpret...

Your interpretation would not be far off from something like if I said:

I believe people shouldn't hate Jews.

And then you used this as the quote of mine:

I...hate Jews.

If you state that the book is evil, and then your examples prove to be ill thought out, that does meant that you are wrong.
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No, dear. In the cherry-pickings suggested by Lati0s and listed in full by Plopper, we have full context. Allah is quite clear: "believe in this book without proof, or prove it wrong. If you can't prove it wrong but still don't worship me, you're gonna pay."
 
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